I’m not interested in a supplier trip to China, I do that enough for my day job, so look elsewhere, lol. And while I’d be more than willing to review a light and give my perspective on it, I think the development team of the Q8 are more deserving of getting to put their hands on the light first.
Even though it is being referred to as a “prototype”, I get the feeling that it’s pretty late in development to start asking Thorfire for more specific quality or testing items, that wasn’t really what I was suggesting. But on the other hand, I don’t think it is unreasonable to at least ask Thorfire in general how they confirm quality of a new product. For example, do they do ANY durability testing? Thermal shock or thermal cycle testing for the PCB? Material or coating certs? Blah Blah Blah here I go again…
I’ve only been monitoring the GT project a little. It seems to still be much earlier in development, where it makes more sense to start defining what (if any) the quality standards will be. My input (if desired) would probably be more appropriate over there, if it is deemed useful.
What teacher is say'n is, at least used to be, quite common in the industry. Always helps to have someone there look'n over their shoulders.
For QC, dunno. We can't get answers to simple questions, yet alone questions on materials, coatings, etc. We are too far removed from the people that really might know, and they do not speak English. You can ask the questions, but at best we would get some vague unspecific response. I'm hoping the good/bad experiences we have had and made public here has led to improvements in the process overall, and I do believe it has.
I'd like to know what bin and tint the LED's are for example, and I'd be happy if a monkey tried turning each manufactured light on and off and could reject it if it doesn't turn on. This is probably more than what happens to 95% of the flashlights made. The Fenix's, SureFire's, ArmyTek and a few others probably do that but of course they are in the vast minority of units made and sold.
At one point I know of, Dell dropped power on testing every PC coming off their lines, though the level of automation is quite advanced, and they said they can live with the resulting failure rate. It comes down to cost tradeoffs for failure rate vs. additional testing according to Dell, as long as the failure rate can stay below an acceptable threshold (reputation issues, etc.). I've seen this with other manufacturers as well, not just Dell. Monitors and TV's, for example, were at one time individually calibrated and tested properly - those days are long gone, but they are lot cheaper today of course.
Good question. The Cometa was somewhat a “bait & switch”.
In that “group buy” gone bad was an unknown with the screen name “Cyberescudo” who was supposedly in charge. Then when it all turned to crap that person was a ghost. :person_facepalming: … No responses for the most part & about ZERO support in finding a solution. For all we know it was a “setup” from the word go by this person.
What we do have going for us in this group buy is The Miller, an upstanding, outstanding, & long standing member!
He has been upfront & transparent about everything pertaining to this group buy. He has a meticulous OP & has kept it meticulously updated as well.
As far as all that goes I personally do not see how he could have done more.
It has been and is continuing go be…… stellar. :+1:
In the very, very, very, very extremely unlikely case that this GB did somehow turn to ‘shite’, I DO NOT think The Miller would run & hide as the ‘Cyberescudo’ person did in the Cometa disaster. I think he would be leading the charge to make things right. :+1:
The Miller & the way he has handled this whole Q8 project is why I personally trust it 100%.
Having a second set of “trained eyes” look at the Q8 takes nothing away from what I have said above or from anyone else. Many times a second set of eyes will see something the first did not. This applies to anything, not just this light.
In my opinion, The Miller can not be demanded to make things right if this turns out to be a failure, all members of the Q8 team are thousands of miles away from where the Q8 is designed and produced, all communication is remote. There is only so much we can make happen from a distance. On top of that it is and must stay hobby for us all. I’m sure if failure occurs, he and we will do our best to turn it around into a succes, but if the effort becomes too large we will just have to accept the failure and move on.
I agree that seems reasonable. Perhaps a hold it a few seconds on max to stress any really weak solder or component (if that’s any use, I’m really not sure). Then again, it’s unlikely all lights will be tested with fresh cells.
And yes, this isn’t Thorfire’s first light. The one I have from them is built just fine so I suspect they do know what they’re doing and don’t need to be bugged about every little detail.
It may not sound like much, but a quick smoke test goes a long way. Usually it’s a metaphor, but in this case it might literally be checking if smoke comes out.
In any case, if we can get a basic “does it turn on?” test before shipping, that would put the Q8 leagues ahead of previous BLF projects. And if not, it’ll probably still be okay most of the time.
It’s like baby-sitting 50 year olds. You would not expect Fortune 1000 companies to need that level of oversight, but they do. Small suppliers/manufacturers are sometimes very good, but often much worse.
With several hundred lights having come to me either by my own order or as a mod host I can say very few of them have had any real issues as made by the manufacturer. The HD2010 I got once upon a time was probably what started me into modding, not working right out of the box. This was an exception to the rule and I’ve seen very few lights come in that condition. So as long as Thorfire cares about their rep they won’t do slop and careless assembly. That all falls on them and there’s not much we can say other than it will not be accepted.
If indeed they turn each light on and make sure it functions then we will be in the “Good”.
Jos, I think I may need to lower the reflector a bit… 20ga leads are too thick in the Silicone wrap variety so it might take some Teflon wires that are thinner. I’ll flesh it out and see how that changes things, could only be better.
As far as QC goes, I’ve personally built hundreds of drivers… usually one at a time. I built an FET driver for my 5th scratch built light and danged if it would not work! Everything was on it correctly, everything tested, it got re-flashed and re-reflowed, nada. So I built another just like it and this one is perfect. Sometimes things just happen. The turn on and ramp up/down will show any such lemon and reject it back to the assembly line.
OK let’s just look back a little
Almost all groupbuy projects result in darg fine lights.
Below is result of own conclusions, reading between lines and direct communication;
what is it, 4th run of nichia 348? taught me: make sure the proto is right before giving the OK. This may take several tries but when proto is good production should work out fine.
hugely successful A01 in several colors and copper at outstanding price, taught me: be honest and don’t get discouraged by what sometimes can feel like a clubbing by critical BLFers who want so much and specifically what hey feel is very important.
X5/X6 hugely successful taught me:
Don’t get commercially involved so you can stay in between manufacturer/vendor and BLF being on both sides. Don’t be nasty and don’t patronize real concerns.
Don’t over inflate expectations.
(Special note Toykeeper taught me, do your best and don’t feel personally responsible if manufacturer or vendor makes a mistake, girl you made it hard on yourself ;).)
Cometa (took me pages and pages of PMs to finally get to the bottom of that, no bait and switch, a proto was OKed that was not OK, simple, the OK giver didn’t even had a Z1 so could not know if proton was as desired.
Again a solid proto is key.
Also when it went wrong vanishing was a bad move.
Again, we have a different situation then being a customer ordering a batch of special things. We work with a professional party who knows good execution is important.
Yes communication is slow and tedious but most important there is good will.
It is important to understand BLf is a hard crowd to please, TF was not that keen on doing it, Jaxman took a lot of persuasion to make hosts available.
Dealing with us low price asking, nitpicking, coupon asking, flaw seeing and naming, in great detail disassembling and thus secret revealing, bunch is no pick nick yet we bring lots of good to the table so still things happen.
Good post miller, you’ve done a great job on this project and I have no doubt my q8 will be perfect along with the others. Even a 1% failure rate would be acceptable in my opinion thorfire seems to care about their reputation on here and takes care of their customers. And finds a solution both parties are happy with. And they don’t overcharge for lights. Like the thorfire s70s was on sale for like 37-38$ shipped a couple weeks back 4000 lumens for $40 just like this light 4,000+ for $40. So they are still making out good building this for us. If the s70 still make enough profit at $40 this does to. And is soon as this is released they are making 40+ grand in a matter of 48 hours. Not to mention what the next couple years of sales brings probably with a higher price
Unlike the manufscter of the cometa, what basically happened there the prototype they sent out had all the right parts. Then when it went to production all inferior parts were used. And nothing like the sample lights sent out. Still to this day I avoid manker. They can’t seem to design a light without a lot of problems and ask to much for it. Light after light major issues. Name brand and contracted builds. And not the best support when issues arrise. But what makes the most mad. Is they cone on here with threads asking for blf members input and help with a design or things for a light. Build it and turn around and refuse to do a group buy for BlF when the community held their hand and basically built the light for them. Ok rant over now, sorry just gets me mad they screwed over so many members and didn’t even offer lube.
Since we’re all sitting and waiting anyway, replacing 20Ga Turnigy wires with 20Ga Teflon wires cost me more than 2A and 600 lumens. I got the reflector seated about 1mm deeper, which is all the centering rings in stock form are allowing. I found it interesting though that the teflon wires lost current, would have thought it’d be the other way around.
Wow, that’s a lot. Maybe it’s not teflon vs silicone, but rather that the particular brand of teflon wire you’ve got just isn’t as high quality as the silicone wire? Smaller gauge wire sold as thicker gauge is way too common, as I’m sure you are aware. If you have a decent length of wire, you can figure out what the actual resistance of the wire is either by measuring it directly, or running a current through it and calculating.
Sure seems to me that Justin (Old Lumens) had tested the Teflon wires on a big triple build and found they carried more current. There’s a pita to work with for sure, even stripping the Teflon off is a chore before you start soldering. Tough stuff, but such thick stout wires they can rip pads off a driver if you aren’t careful. I’ve had this Teflon wire for a couple of years, very seldom use it due to the stiffness. Not sure if it’s quality wire or not. The wire inside the Teflon is pre tinned, seems like each individual wire is silver coated, they’re not all soldered together. Seems odd to me.
Be nice to have a purpose built driver like the Q8 for the multiple emitters, I’m cramming triple wires on a single pad!
I had to inset the switch assembly deeper to facilitate button presses and the internal threads are shy of allowing the retaining ring to seat on the pcb the switch is on so I just picked up something to make it work, turns out to be a threaded piece of Titanium I’m using for that spacer. Probably losing a bit there, need to either re-cut the threads or make a copper spacer for maximum current path. That would matter on the lumens test, not at all on the amperage test as I’m doing that with the tail cap off.
With the reflector filed I might have room for 18ga leads, but then I’d have to drill the copper again for clearance for larger wires. Emitter mcpcb’s are glued in with Arctic Silver, so that’d get risky. Always something. Build a light from scratch then start modding it for mo powah! Hahahahahahaha
Copper, love it and hate it. Replaced the Ti spacer with copper and am up to 9860 lumens. That’s the love part. Had a spacer finished and was parting it off when it, at the last possible second, flipped over and jammed into the parting tool bending it up like a smashed pretzel and shutting the 1 HP motor down solid. UGH! Started over. What else can ya do, right?
Anyway, the 20700B isn’t a top discharge cell so it’ll be interesting to see, like Tom has found in testing the Q8, just what cell works best. For those that don’t have a lot of lights to play with, it can be crazy finding the top performing cell… sometimes it’s not the one you expect!
Edit: With freshly charged 20700B cells I’m now seeing 10,448 lumens from the 3 XHP-50.2’s. That’s 10,005 lumens at 30 seconds. Doing something right somewhere.
… Tom E, is that the first endorsement of the “Send Teacher to China” campaign I am waging? …. :+1: …
“Smoke Test”………… I like that…. metaphor or not. As well as everything else you stated. :+1:
The Miller, I pretty much agree with everything you say here except some of the Cometa statements.
I think the Cometa was a “bait and switch” for sure. It still, as of this writing; says in the OP of the first Cometa offering thread it was to be a “JAX Z1 host”. Here are a few lines about that copied and pasted below.
Original message:
Hello to everyone, i am Cyberescudo a member of CPFItalia Forum.
In collaboration with Banggood we have created a custom flashlight on Jax Z1 host with many upgrades including the FET + 7135 driver designed by BLF members.
The name of the flashlight will be COMETA (the italian traslation of comet )
But, no use arguing about that and the how and why of it.
I call it tomāto, you call it tomăto.
Either way the outcome was the same, a sad disaster of a fiasco.
And the saddest thing of it all, “to me”; was this ‘Cyberescudo’ person crawling in a hole & disappearing. Mistakes happen, but the disappearing act was deliberate… for whatever reason.
Which brings us to present time……….
To date, it is impressive how “you and the Team” have handled this Q8 project. That is the bottom line for me.
Yes, even on the tightest run ship or manufacturing floor there will be some “lemons”. That cannot be helped no matter how tight the standards are… it is just the way it is. That is a given, whether it be lights, cars, dishes, do-nuts, or the space shuttle. Things can and do go wrong at times.
Personally, I think you & the team have done & are doing everything possible to keep manufacturing problems with this light to a minimum. But as has been stated aptly previously, there is just so much that can be done short of actually being there in person to see and check the production. That, in reality is not really an option. (unless of course you endorse the “Send ’teacher’ to China” campaign, as hopefully Tom E has. … )
Aside from that, you all are doing all you can do to make this a success. :+1:
If it were to go bad, which I doubt & can’t even imagine; it goes without saying it would be none of yours fault.
It would just be the breaks of the game……. simple as that.
Life would continue…………
I don’t see that happening, partly because of the things you stated above and then being able to see the way this whole Q8 project has been handled from the start. You all have been on top of it in a steady and methodical manner. No rushing, no taking shortcuts, no nothing except focusing on the task. :+1:
I personally hope at least one other set of eyes trained in manufacturing examines the final Prototype. I just think two or three sets of eyes might spot something undetected. I have seen it happen to many times in other fields & instances. Something missed by one but all to obvious to another. Which is not to say that the first person missed something, not at all, But everyone looks differently at things and something may stand out to one that did not to another.
BUT, that is simply my opinion. Whatever is decided works for me. :+1: …
Thanks again to you & the team for the manner in which this has been & is being handled.
Tried a pair of Sony VTC6 in the DBC-05 Triple, they give 21.12A on a rested pair at 4.13V. That’s good for 11, 696 lumens from the 3 XHP-50.2’s. I’ll see if I can get my hands on a pair of VTC5A’s…
The C6’s are some serious 18650’s to be sure.
The 50.2’s, adjusted in respect to the reflector, are showing just a hint of a spot in the center, with the cross radiating out from center on all 3 as situated. Probably more to do with this reflector than anything, but I’d say they’re capable and it may well be interesting to see what 4 of em would do in the Q8.
… Tom E, is that the first endorsement of the “Send Teacher to China” campaign I am waging? 
