DIY 207 - 222 nm UV source for biologic death ray

Off-topic Chatter
12

Well, look at the “studies” of echinacea. Take the parts of the plant that have the lowest amounts of active ingredients (ie, almost none), find minimal gain vs placebo, and declare categorically that it doesn’t work. You might as well be testing tea-leaves…

“Follow the money”.

Like seriously, why people get their panties all in a bunch about things they haven’t tried and in fact won’t try, and defend their position almost with a religious fervor, is beyond me. Do your own research, from both sides (ie, those sites promoting it, and those poopooing it), and come to your own conclusions.

Jesus…

13

It’s funny that you mention religion. Religious people claim that something is real without rigorous evidence. That might not have been the best analogy.

If I tried colloidal silver and it appeared to make me better-endowed and 30 IQ points higher, that evidence would be anecdotal and therefore meaningless. The only way you can draw conclusions about the efficacy of a substance is with a rigorous study. This may come as a surprise to you, but unsubstantiated writings on colloidal silver promotion websites are not scientific evidence. There is a concept in logic called the burden of proof. If you make an assertion, it needs empirical evidence to support it. Your assertion is that colloidal silver cures ailments. Please show us the accompanying evidence.

14

Y’know what? If you don’t want to believe it works, don’t even want to try it, then don’t use it. It’s that simple.

Anything I could put forth how it worked for me you’d just dismiss as “anecdotal”, so I’m not even going to bother.

There’s no Colloidal Silver Lobby that buys funds their “research” and cherrypicks “studies” to show it works. Can you say the same about those who want to show that it doesn’t work? (Hint: Phig Barma.)

Ferchrissakes, how many decades have there been studies which “proves” that secondhand smoke is harmless?

Like I said, follow the money.

Or not. I’ll use it when needed, and you don’t have to. I was just putting it out there in case anyone’s actually open-minded enough to go have a look.

Guess that was a mistake…

15

(Hint: Phig Barma.) Ha Ha Love it ! Empirical evidence? Oh you mean statistics? I have had MS for quite a number of years now and when first diagnosed there was no real treatment so you just suck it up buttercup. Now there are several ” disease modifying therapies” available. These have been shown to have a “statistically significant ” effect on the disease. If you run the numbers really though this was what allowed FDA approval and insurance reimbursement. I know many MSer’s who are on now or who have been on any of a number of these therapies and none of them can point to a real effect these treatments have brought about. I get that our experience is anecdotal. Know of a man who sold everything and went to China for a stem cell therapy and the main difference he observed was a lack of a place to live when he came back. Follow the money is THE best advice given in all aspects of life. David

16

You’re right, there is no colloidal silver lobby. There are, however, many quacks trying to sell their supplements on the Internet. I imagine they are invested in keeping people convinced of its efficacy. This obviously extends to a conspiracy involving big pharma, because, as we know, big pharma profits vastly off common colds and sunburn.

Did you know that the human body has no biological use for silver? Given knowledge of this, does it seem likely that drinking silver does anything? If tangible, non-placebo benefits arose from drinking silver, does it not seem likely that more people would do it? As it stands, the only ones trying it are alternative medicine types, all of whom soundly reject logic. “Big pharma” is not omnipotent; if colloidal silver was both easy to make and effective, we would expect to see grassroots use throughout the world. Doctors in impoverished communities would love it.

17

And that’s the problem with quackery, that they sell hope to the hopeless. Emphasis on sell.

What bugs me about the whole colloidal silver thing is that all the naysayers wrap themselves in white lab-coats, parrot the same establishment sources touting pricey meds vs something that can be made for cheap (1 gallon of distilled water and pennies worth of silver make a whole gallon of c-Ag), yet never even bothered to just try the damned stuff.

Silver is used extensively in burn wards. Silver was even added to Band-Aids to help healing. Gauze infused with silver is used to treat diabetic ulcers which don’t heal otherwise. Silver’s being added to clothing to make your sweat-stank that much less. Silver silver silver. And these aren’t “silver nuts” touting it, but commercial interests.

Here’s what I tell them, but which falls on deaf ears. Snap together 3 or 4 9V batteries (27V-36V) and run current through silver wires immersed in distilled water. Instructions abound all over the web for details. Shine a laser through it. It’ll start out crystal clear, and you’ll be able to see the beam more and more as more colloid forms. When it’s done, use it.

Everyone knows the just-inhaled-a-cottonball feeling right before you come down with a cold. Chug some c-Ag. What I’ve done is make 16oz or so for a massive dose. Chug the first third to get it into your system. Sip the second third over the course of the day. At night or the next morning, chug the last third.

It should taste like plain water, but have a metallic aftertaste to it. That’s the Good Stuff.

If it doesn’t work, by the next morning you’ll have a just-inhaled-a-Brillo-pad feeling instead, as if you did nothing special. If it does work, you’ll feel way way better, and ultimately not come down with the cold. I speak from experience on this, and I kinda doubt any placebo could knock back a cold overnight. (And the rich irony is that Ag is poopooed, yet Zn lozenges are universally recommended!)

If you wait too long and give the cold a chance to get a foothold, you’ll still end up feeling sick, as the damage has already been done, but you’ll also heal that much faster.

So no, you don’t have to spend 40bux a bottle on who-knows-what that’s labelled colloidal silver. Make yer own, cheaply, and fairly easily (Hell, people who mod lights for fun can’t string together some Ag wires in DW??). There really is no excuse. And anyone who does take me up on testing it, if you’re intellectually honest about it, you’ll give it a fair shake, vs torpedoing the effort just to be able to declare it doesn’t work.

It seems to me that people put way more effort in trying to trash colloidal silver than just do some cheap’n’easy testing of their own. And even so, there’s no proof that’s acceptable or even possible. Personal anecdotes are instantly and summarily dismissed. Like someone dressed in a labcoat and stroking his beard is the only one who can pronounce judgment on it. Hell, for some time, “scientists” declared that it was aerodynamically impossible for the bumblebee to fly. Someone should’ve told that to the bumblebee…

Now you know my frustration trying to discuss the issue. “Hello, wall!”

Some info I just grabbed in about 30sec…

Podiatry Today: https://www.podiatrytoday.com/article/3156

Advanced Tissue: https://www.advancedtissue.com/4-types-of-impregnated-wound-dressings/

Silverlon: Silver Antimicrobial Wound Dressings | Silverlon

Silvercel: http://www.acelity.com/products/silvercel-dressing

whups, sorry, it was Curad, not Band-Aid: Antibacterial silver products finally begin to emerge after years of FDA oppression

18

Ummm, have you walked into a CVS or Walgreen’s lately?

Probably not. But it’s what it does to the little bugs infesting your system that matters.

Silver interferes with a virus’s ability to replicate. It effectively turns off the mechanism which knows where to slice RNA. Kinda like taking a printer with fanfold paper, and screwing up the linefeed count so that each “page” straddles 2-3 pages instead. No (correct) RNA replication, no more virus.

Bacteria, I think it interferes with its metabolism, ’though I don’t recall details offhand.

Hell, for a long time, no one thought there was any use for Se (selenium) in anyone’s body, yet a Se deficiency can be rather nasty. It’s needed in the thyroid, albeit in only trace amounts. A few Brazil nuts could fix it, and then some.

Then again, too much Se can mimic radiation poisoning!

Likely because “doctors” were so ingrained to believe what the mainstream believes, that Ag is quackery.

It’d be nice if there were some open-minded enough to give it a shot. Just have them talk to some doctors in burn-wards…

19

Thanks for those links about silver dressings. Although you may be tempted to believe that they work because they exist, there is actually mounting evidence that these dressings have no effect on wound healing or infection rates. Here’s a review:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD006478.pub2/abstract

Not to dispute silver’s antimicrobial properties, of course.

I’m a biologist, so I can verify that this is supported by research. However, these experiments are performed in vitro. A test tube environment is not a proxy for testing in vivo effects—living bodies are too complex.

This was discovered in 1957. Suffice to say, science has caught up.

Actually, if someone wanted to perform a blind trial with a sufficient sample size and statistical testing, it would be wonderful. Science can be done by anyone (although the experiment should be ethical). Personal anecdotes are dismissed because they’re just that—anecdotes. They don’t control for confounding factors.

Zinc is an essential element for humans to stay alive, unlike silver. Even so, the evidence on whether zinc lozenges actually do anything is mixed.

20

Actually, a while back, I had some stitches split open (don’t ask) only 15min after getting sewed up. Didn’t realise it at the time, as cauterisation before and a pressure-dressing after kept me from leaking all over my car-seat. Still, by the time I went to get (what was left of) the stitches taken out, I had a rather deep gaping hole that had to heal from the inside out. To restitch, a plastic surgeon would’ve had to cut even more to make a fresh cut to be able to restitch it, and still there’d be no guarantee they’d hold.

So, a whopping 2mos (8wks) went by, and I still had a gaping hole that I had to dress daily with bandages, and only a month into it was written a scrip for DuoDerm patches. The wise-ass I went to laffed when I was frustrated enough to ask if it’d be another 2mos ’til it closed up, saying it’d be longer. F that!

After taking off the 2nd DuoDerm (about 1wk a pop), I made a batch of c-Ag, and the black ick on one of the electrodes, whether AgO, Ag2O, AgH, nano-Ag, whatever, I slathered into the hole and onto the DuoDerm, and slapped it on.

After 1wk, the hole that was the size of a quarter was now almost a pinhole. Another patch, 2-3 more days, it was completely closed up. Had a black “tattoo” in that area of skin for a few years, but that’s it.

No one is going to tell me that Ag doesn’t promote healing. And that wasn’t just The Power Of My Mind, either (though that’d be pretty kewl…).

Thankfully. Else they’d still be drilling holes in peoples’ heads to let the evil spirits out, or bleeding people to “release the heat from their veins”.

Yaaaay, science!

I know, but was just illustrating a point. Okay, so early cars were feared, “because at speeds more than 30mph, people wouldn’t be able to breathe”.

Yet some people swear by them, and they do seem to work. Me, I never even tried any. I’d rather go for Ag right off.

But if you take Zn supplements, balance them with Cu, and v/v.

I suspect Zn is a “poor man’s Ag” when it comes to colds, etc. Might not kill the little bugs, but makes them quite uncomfortable. Never looked into the purported function of Zn in that regard.

21

Your wound healing anecdote is appreciated, although it doesn’t contribute to our debate.

And that’s the difference between us. My opinion is easily changed by new evidence.

22

Guys - why do you believe you need to do this.

I am trying to accomplish something that is important to me.

And all there is is assorted flavors of rant and BS about something completely irrelevant. I am on one side of that discussion (the rational one), but you are destroying the thread. And if one of you should meet the others on the street and one is a light bluish green, you will have your answer.

And Silver does have a recognized use as an external antibacterial agent. I just remembered. I believe Silver was pumped up urethras to combat STDs. Sort of internal. I believe it was unpleasant.

23

Phlogisten and gravelmonkey -

You need to be careful with the terms far UV or far UVC. Mostly people talking about far UV for these things are actually thinking about 254 nm and above. The effect I am talking about I believe needs to get down into the 207 range to work properly. There is a particularly good absorption window at 207 that optimizes the killing effect. My original post said 207 - 254. I have learned more since then. Some earlier work was done up at 220 - 254, but 207 turned out to be a sweet spot for deadly absorption.

Aside from not hurting eyes and skin, the light should not even be visible to most people. It is outside the visual spectral range of our eyes. Some insects and animals can see it (e.g., bees). So it should not be distracting to anyone working in a area lighted with 207 nm. Like a surgeon looking for just the right place to cut; or having to suddenly find the right place to stick a thumb while yelling for a nurse.

24

To get back on track, alternety here is another open source article you might want to look at Fundamental Characteristics of Deep-UV Light-Emitting Diodes and Their Application To Control Foodborne Pathogens . They are looking at 275nm for microbe killing, more like what you are looking for.

25

Thanks Scientist.

What I need however is diodes that will work at 207 nm. The wavelength is quite specific. This is the particular sweet spot for killing pathogens and not harming humans in the same space. 207 nm emitters are tough to find. I received some feedback from the people trying to qualify this radiation as a human safe source that kills bugs. This means the whole bunch of crap the FDA requires. The research showing the effectiveness of this radiation is, I believe, at least 5 years old. And it is definitive. This should be something on the FDA fast list. Relatively inexpensive. Immediately reducing a 10% infection rate to zero. Vast reduction of insurance payouts and lawsuits for letting the patient get the diseases in the first place. Using 207 nm UVC throughout the hospital could pretty much eliminate infections within the hospital. In the kind of volume this technique could create (hospitals, homes, any building, automobiles, airports, all other public spaces, food handling sites, etc.) this could drive serious production of the required LEDs and associated hardware with a rapidly declining cost.

The kids will not bring the plague (or other diseases[small pox, whooping cough, measles, flu, etc.]) home from school. Taking an Uber does not give you the flu. Touching things in the supermarket does not give you (fill in the blank). And so on.

Potentially way more effective at thwarting the spread of flu than continuing the years long effort (and cost) of developing and distributing flu vaccines. And all the other transmissible virus, bacteria, and fungus. How can this not be an emergency priority effort by the appropriate agencies, researchers, and manufacturers?

The discovers have done experiments which, in my opinion, should be enough for the FDA approval. The numbers I have seen are that about 10% of people having surgery (particularly within the abdominal cavity) wind up with a hospital provided infection. Since antibiotic resistant bugs are most common in hospitals, the scenario gets worse. Survival rate from Hospital Acquired Infection ((HAI) is not good. Current technology simply does not fix this. The UV they use is not permitted with humans in the room.

A POSSIBLE >= 10% REDUCTION IN HOSPITAL INFECTIONS - THINK OF THE HUMAN LIVES AND COST TO EVERYONE.

I am trying hard to find a way to eliminate the 10% risk for surgery. I am old, have a seriously nasty “rip my abdomen open and muck about” problem with a high likelihood or recurrence.

And this solution is plodding through acceptance tests.

It is a life changing technology.

26

Sorry to read about your condition and thanks for bringing up this matter. Quite an interesting read.

One thing i would actually worry about is over using this kind of technology though. If you grow up in a sterile environment you are likely to get sick with about anything if you wander into the ‘real world’… But of course it would be a big improvement for a lot of such applications. I hope it starts to get deployed in hospitals soon.

27

Do you think that your idea and implementation is something that makers of UVC packages for hospitals have not thought of?

Seems like companies such as www.americanultraviolet.com would have all of the answers and knowledge that you are seeking.

28

Yes they make UVC lamps for hospitals. But they are probably working around 254 nm. This is dangerous to people. My understanding is that 207 use is not yet approved by the FDA.

29

One problem with using light to sterilize is, it can’t get everywhere.

30

That is indeed true.

However, a significant factor in preventing surgical infection is the fact that the UVC will blow things out of the air.

In a surgical situation, most (if not all) of the tools and materials being used have been sterilized. More UV can’t hurt, and could improve the results. But a major element of contamination is airborne. Even with air filtration and sterilization protocols. Or a few contaminates from someone’s hair, nose, shoes, fingernails, breathing, and on and on. All these things can be a useful attack vector for UVC (207 nm).

The other application is to provide a localized source to protect the patient from pathogenic crap to be imported by nurses, family visits, food delivery persons, stethoscopes, the bed linen, water cups, blood pressure cuffs, IV insertions, not always really effectively washing hands, unfiltered air in the room, contagion of linen (e.g., would you like a blanket?), bed pans, just touching the bed or tray, and any other material effectively exposed to the surgical site. The potential contamination from just a few little tiny microbes can kill you. The personnel, equipment, the environment are simply not suitably disinfected.

Thinking how to create a completely sterile environment can hurt your head. But it is unlikely will you will figure out and block everything that is trying to kill the patient. And a hospital room simply cannot protect you.

31

You should consider 222nm lamps for a variety of reasons. We are working towards FDA approval for cornea disinfection.
Also show 99.99% air disinfection “kill-on-the-fly” single pass in an HVAC unit. UVC get’s less than 1%.
Good luck.