I think much of the IP issue gets as many people angry as it does because the designs are from one man shops, not large conglomerates. The axis lock for example was designed by two knife makers who later sold it Benchmade. Notorious thieves like Kevin John Knives simply troll the internet for popular designs and flat out steal them. Add in poor manufacturing techniques and sub par materials and not only has the original knife maker/designer lost a sale but his reputation can also suffer.
The argument that “I would have never spent $XX on knife in the first place” is no excuse. There are knives available for any budget and use case. Rather, the customer wanted the design and features of a high blade without actually having to pay market price.
Steel is another issue altogether, but is generally one of personal preference. I enjoy quality tool steels that can hold up to daily use. I hate stropping and sharpening so I don’t mind paying a premium for good blade steel. If you don’t mind an edge that rolls when cutting packing tape, Ganzo is a reasonable choice!
1. I am not hostile to anyone that disagrees with my opinion on this. I was serious when I said that I respect the opinion of anyone that hates Chinese knives. I get it. I just disagree.
2. I always try to buy American. Sometimes I don’t, but when the price is justified, I do.
3. This topic got me banned from BladeForums. I don’t want to get banned from here. People on here are extremely helpful. I like it here.
4. I do not believe in the concept of intellectual property. IP and patent laws stifle innovation. I would encourage anyone to read Stephan Kinsella on this issue. (By the way, I am not a libertarian)
5. To be clear, I would never buy nor condone anyone buying a clone knife. By clone, I mean a knife that someone is trying to pass off as, say a Medford Praetorian when it was not, in fact, made by Greg Medford. That is fraud.
6. I do not believe that Ganzo, Sanrenmu, Enlan, etc., fall into the category of clone knives.
7. I have no problem with someone copying the design of something and presenting it as their own version of it. For instance, how many versions of the Buck 110 are there? 1911 pistol? C8 flashlight? I wouldn’t say that anybody stole the Buck 110 clip point design. I would say that they copied it, to varying degrees of quality.
I am more than happy to further explain, expand on or argue any of this. I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind on the matter, but I’m always up for good debate.
I bought 1 ganzo just to try out, my other knives are benchmade ,spyderco just to name a few. I had to take material off the back of the ganzo so the axis lock would engage properly and i have to constantly sharpen it. The old addage you get what you pay for. I agree Ganzo stole Benchmade design and used subpar materials.
I forgot to address the steel issue. Chinese steels are indeed inferior, in general. However, they are getting much better and I would rate as adequate to good on the Ganzos that I own.
In your Pt. 4, you seem to be conflating a few issues and these issues are ideas, concepts and design features that go through the patent process and by doing so, the ‘inventor/originator’ owns that design for a term of years, which varies within product categories.
Another issue you seem to be conflating is the ‘copying of a patented design’ and the copying of something that’s never been patented (protected) before. Big difference there.
You feel that ‘patents’ “stifle innovation” and I’d disagree and if anything, they force somebody to come up with a better mousetrap, because the mousetrap you’re intending to copy, through no genuine creativity of your own, is already spoken for.
I have no problem with clones, as long as they’re not protected. Just because a person slap GANZO on a knife that is for all intents and purposes, a significant copy of a protected BenchMade design, with all of its patented features, hardly absolves them of blame.
Me copying 97% of a Luis Vuitton handbag and me calling it the ‘Chris Bag’ doesn’t cut it.
Most people aren’t experts in the manufacturing of the products that they end up purchasing, but they do lock in on the looks of X, Y or Z widget. Copying the features that define an item, or helps to build the manufacturer’s reputation for quality, especially if it’s protected, is theft, plain and simple.
Your Pt. 7, conflates copying something that has had its patent protections expire, with copying something that’s freshly protected.
Big difference there.
I’m a gun guy and I have a few Harris bi-pods. I remember when the patents expired on their BRM-S 6”–9” type bi-pod and the floodgates opened. I got a nice Outers/Shooter’s Ridge ‘clone’ and didn’t lose a wink of sleep over the I.P. aspect, but that’s just me.
As usual, this comes down to an IP debate, but I am not conflating. I understand the issue. I just don’t see any validity in IP. Or patents. Granted, this is a moral question, not a legal question. Is copying the axis lock legal? I don’t care. Is copying the axis lock immoral? I say no; but I can see that an argument can be made.
Just for the record, I read the Wiki on your Libertarian, Anachro-Capitalist and I can see why you might take the positions that you’re taking in this thread.
Most of us live in ‘societies’ and societies function more smoothly when there are minimal rules, regulations and laws. Morality aside, we don’t generally get to pick and choose what R/R/Ls we follow and what we don’t, without certain consequences—fines, imprisonment, et. al.
Anarchists are all for anarchy until the real anarchists show up with guns, shovels and pitchforks doing anarchist crap, at their expense.
If a feature is patented under US patent law (or any other country’s patent office), then it’s illegal to utilize that feature without permission, which might include a licensing fee, as I mentioned above.
I’m guessing that most companies would love to license their I.P., even to competitors, because it generates revenue for future ideas.
Whether you “care”, or not, is a moot point. And it’s not a ‘moral’ issue, it’s a legal one.
Try copying Gucci, or Fendi handbags, or wallets and selling them at your local flea market.
This is a moral question. I am not an anarchist nor a libertarian. I understand that there are consequences for not following laws. Legal =/= moral. An immoral law is not a law that I feel obligated to follow.
The handbag argument has already been addressed. I would never condone fraud.
Buddy, you’re just an anonymous guy on an obscure flashlight board, so I don’t really have much invested in you, or your opinions.
The girlfriend’s out clothes shopping for a Caribbean cruise in two weeks and I’m off of work, surfing the web.
If you view US patent law as being immoral, allowing you to ignore what it stands for and the consequences of violating it, or you feel that companies should be free to rip off features without compensation, for use in their own creations, than by all means patronize those companies, like Ganzo and UltraFire.
No skin off of my back, but when you say you’re not anarchistic, at least in part, you might want to self-reflect.
We don’t get to label laws just/unjust (moral/immoral) for the purpose of violating them scot-free.
Anyhow, I’ve said my peace and so the last word is yours.
Stop lying. I never said anything about justice nor violating laws scot-free. In fact, I said the opposite. I said I am willing to debate this topic, but you are clearly not tall enough for this ride if you are going to resort to lying about what I said.
I think we can all agree to disagree on this topic. No one is changing anyone else’s mind today and I think both side of the topic have adequately expressed themselves. Of course you can always go at it in PM!
I think this is more a moral issue rather than legal. We are not lawyers looking to prosecute ganzo, we are just people looking to make the right decision for ourselves. And there is a distinction between legal and moral. We must consider whether laws are moral because to follow all laws without question is extreme and unreasonable.
Regarding IP, I think there are good and bad applications of the law, and one should look at each case individually to determine if one can morally support a company violating the law.
Back to the original topic, I have not handled any ganzo knives, but I have handled some byrds and they are very nice quality.
I will say I have never liked spyderco. Never liked the designs or price.
I do like the two ganzos I have and many other people that bought them off me also like them a lot. They do not have the best steel in the world, but for the price, I have been impressed with the quality in all the ones I have had go threw my hands. They take on a real sharp edge fast, and hold it well in my use and have never had a problem rolled the edge on any of them
Haha I didn’t notice that…what a turd. No wonder he has been banned from other forums. Certainly Blade Forums doesn’t tolerate his nonsense stance on clones he likely got banned real quick.
I didn’t see anyone mention it, so… Benchmade’s patent on the axis lock ran out a year or two ago. They still own the rights to the name “Axis Lock”, but anyone can now legally use the lock design so long as they don’t call it an Axis Lock.
There’s no patent issue here. A case can be made for IP theft, but I don’t know if there is anything that can be done about someone copying a pointy knife shape. Can’t most knives claim influence from another’s idea to some extent? I am vaguely agnostic to this so long as the maker isn’t claiming the knife (whatever) is brand XYZ when in fact it’s brand POS and not made by XYZ.
