Thanks Dale... several people had asked about that.
Guys there is your answer...
Thanks Dale and Terry!
Good tidings!
Whew.... I don't know about you guys but finally at the end of what has turned into an excellent team effort to solve issues.
I could use a very cold beer...
Winston Wulf,
At the risk of being added as the third troublemaker in Terry’s list, I would like to say I have not found your posts to be unnecessarily negative, mean spirited, or provocative. Rather, they have frequently been quite relevant, informative, and as far as I’m concerned your contribution(s) are welcome here.
I’ve been active on usenet since the early 90’s (arguably the “primal” model of contemporary forumming), and I would venture that there are not many hard rules to forum posting in general. But, I think most of us might agree that if the central theme of a post is to diminish or besmirch someones character, that post is, at best, worthy of being ignored. A bit of dramatic flair when engaged in an otherwise reasonable debate seems to be well tolerated. But when, by use of cliched negative association and derogatory assertion, a post appears to have the singular intention of simply making someone feel unwelcome, I feel affronted, concerned that the power so commonly wielded by cults of personality and privilege will come to dominate this space, neuter the potential of what is perhaps the most significant development in human communication since the printing press.
Or perhaps I’m merely overly sensitive to bullying. Take your pick, it ain’t pretty…
Heikelite hired subcontractors to develop a driver.
Once the light hit production it turned out that some lights flicker.
Well, it happens. Fix it and move on. Fix the culprit by switching to a better subcontractor.
That’s OK way of handling the issue. Also send a fixed driver to the buyers. That’s a good way of handling the issue, despite the fact that quite a few buyers will be unable to solder the driver.
But the drivers were also missing some important features too (LVP, thermal control). And the presence or absence of that features were easy to verify. If they didn’t find the problem, they clearly didn’t do a regular test of what they put in their product and that’s bad. I hope they learn from this lesson as well.
I would also like to express my disappointment with them faking the specs again.
Now that I learned that they used very low bin LEDs (that should never happen in a brand light) I view MT09R as a very interesting host with some rubbish inside.
I was not a fan of Haikelite, but in MT09R I see 3 red flags:
- careless development process
- fake specs
- very low bin LEDs
Sounds much like Astrolux to me. But for a premium price.
good news, i asked before to buy 1 charger before will i get info when to pay?
Okay with Critics and debates not withstanding I do still have MT09R's in both models and TA should be completing the final version of the drivers very soon and I have already requested enough drivers for the units I have left.
There is a slight difference in price but that is just to cover my cost of the drivers.
Orders can be placed anytime and they will ship the same day the drivers arrive and I install them.
Future models should have the same driver but that will be several weeks before I can even hope to order them myself.
https://hesaidshesaidsales.com/shop?olsPage=products
I am not sure I would say very low bin but not high bin for sure. If I had to guess I would say around C4 bin, so middle of the road, just low bin compared to what we usually aim for around here. I have seen MUCH worse LED’s in the cheaper brands. At least the tint on these is ok (for being on the cooler side) and the output is within reason.
I do agree that they should stop advertising specs before they actually measure a light. I actually had a long talk with Dale about this very subject last night. It doesn’t sound like they have a lumen sphere they can use and just have to go off the specs of the LED for the output.
I told them to send me a prototype light from now on and I will test it for them and get the real numbers along with looking over the light for any issues. Who knows if he will take me up on it.
My personal expectation is that a premium brand should strive to get the best bin.
Upper middle end (that’s where I think Haikelite wants to be) should use the best easily available, in exceptional cases one down.
A quality budget brand (think Convoy) is fine with whatever provides the most lm/$…when counting the price of the entire light, not just LED. This is usually higher than the middle of the pack really.
Anything below that qualifies as junk to me.
Maybe I was overly harsh in saying the ~C4 leds were junk. But they were clearly not something to be expected from a light like that.
I wouldn’t hold my breath, as that’s not the Chinese business model or culture. If there is a means of claiming higher performance, ie. the manufacturers specs plus doing the math for their application on paper, they will claim the higher number and blame any shortfalls on the sub-manufacturer.
Taking the extra step of sending a product to test it to see if it may actually perform at a LOWER level than theoretical would be very countercultural and wouldn’t make sense to them or the business model they work in.
Watch out!!
Terry is on his way to call you a TROUBLEMAKER!!
I wanted to share with you guys, that some people are very happy with this GB. It was posted on the sc26 GB, just in case you don’t follow that GB, here is the link:
I agree, I have told them a few times to get better LED’s. There seems to be a lot more going on over at HL them we see.
Dale did ask me where to get P2 bin XHP70.2 LED’s yesterday, so that is a good sign.
Sounds promising! Maybe they will launch a new version of the MT09R with the upgraded LEDs and your driver out of the factory… I would buy one asap.
Otherwise we would have to ask you TA for a complete overhaul of some lights we sent you. There are a few people @TLF in Germany who would really get their hands on your 23k Lumen prototype …
I could live with this title most likely…
- Haikelite tried their best to ship out the orders before CNY and gambled to trust their driver subcontractor did a good job. I’m sure in their hindsight, they should have waited and tested first before shipping since this is a GB and like all GBs a long wait is to be expected. However, there will always be a few whiners if they didn’t ship it out soon enough so I understand. It would have been nice if they tested as I don’t mind waiting but I don’t blame them as their intentions meant well.
- The specs were calculated. It’s obvious Haikelite’s intention wasn’t to cheat but they lacked the equipment to test. I suspect the majority of flashlight manufacturers spec their lights based on calculations rather than testing. From reading tons of reviews and tests on various flashlights, the measured OTF lumens are generally lower than the advertised lumens. Many I’ve seen are MUCH lower than specified. At least the XHP70.2 version which most people bought meets Haikelite specs.
- TA just clarified it is not “very low bin” LEDs. Even premium brands like Acebeam, Olight, Fenix, Nitecore, Zebralight, etc., don’t specify the LED bins so they might not be much better. My MT09R 70.2 version measured OTF lumens near or exceeding Haikelite rated lumens which is pretty amazing.
The performance of the MT09R XHP70.2 is in another league compared w/ the Astrolux MF01. My MT09R 5000k NW with advertised 15k lumens measures 2,170 lx whereas the Astrolux with advertised 11,526 lumens measures only 1,220 lx with ceiling bounce. I’ve used the MF01 for my structural inspection work and gave up on it. The driver is a joke. The turbo step down is so quick and drastic, it is completely useless and the UI is bad. I stored my MF01 away and probably will never use it anymore. I use my MT09R for the same purpose and it serves my purpose very well and the stock driver, although not perfect, is still way better than the MF01.
Calling it a “premium price” is ridiculously non factual. Even w/ the XHP35 version that did’t meet the specs, I did a quick search online for same performance class flashlights, and here are the results:
Fenix TK75 2018 (specified 5,000 lumens, 850m throw) on sale for $220
Acebeam K65 (specified 6,200 lumens, 1014m throw) $224
Nitecore TM28 (specified 6,000 lumens, 655m throw) $400
Imalent DT35 (specified 8,500 lumens, 1,000m throw) $245
Thrunite TN40 2016 (specified 4,450 lumens, 1,151m throw) on sale for $170
Haikelite MT09R XHP35 (specified 7,000 lumens, 1,000m throw) (measured 5,500 - 6,500 lumens, ??? throw) $105
The GB price is less than half for comparable performing lights. Even w/ TA and Terry’s measured 5.5k to 6.5k measured lumens, the XHP35 version is still the BEST deal available.
It’s these harsh, exaggerated, and non constructive comments that will ruin the likelihood of those of us that are appreciative from getting more GBs in the future. With that said, I don’t think hIKARInoob and Winston Wulf’s comments were intended to cause trouble. It sounded like they actually like the light but just wanted to offer some objective info. I find their data/input useful as sharing info is what these forums are for. I would still love to read their findings but I guess on a separate thread per Terry’s request.
That sounds awesome! It’s rare to see flashlight manufacturers seek feedback and advice from the flashlight community and this is a very good sign. I would exhilarated to see a 25k+ P2 binned MT09R w/ TA driver! Instant buy!
When I told dale I have an L6 doing 8500 lumens he said that is unbelievable, acebeam is only able to get 6500 lumens from an LED.
25K might just be doable but I would have to see it. I know tomE built one of these with P2 bins and he said he was hitting ~23-24k lumens. The batteries are the limit at that point.
If I could just jump in here, trying hard to not “take sides” even though I can see both sides of the issue(s). (And I really should shut up before I get dogpiled on by both sides… :confounded: )
I know the difference between unbridled optimism and harsh reality. People on one side are so enthusiastic about something new and great, a competition-killer, etc., something that’ll really put ’em on the map. Then you contract out some work, spread yourself thin, and then run into blown deadlines, contractors that screw up, delivery issues, and it seems like everything goes wrong.
Hell, I’m always being Mr Glass Half-Empty at work because I WARN people about this kind of thing, to the point of people getting sick’n’tired of hearing from me. “Oh, it shouldn’t take more’n a week…”, but then I’m warning them about sloppy spex (incomplete or even incorrect), new whammies and monkeywrenches that could mung up things, a demanding client that keeps adding to their “wish list” (and everyone in mgmt wants to be yes-men and say yes no matter what), and so on, and so on, that I almost triple the expected amount of time to do it, and sometimes even that’s not enough.
Basically, $#!+ happens. You can’t “expect” it even though you should. That’s why people call them “unexpected delays” instead of “expected delays” (that they should’ve planned for).
So yeah, $#!+ went wrong. I get it. Delivery before CNY, lumenage claims, “Dude, Where’s My Charger??”, “TA or not TA, that is the question…”, whatever. I get that Terry and/or Dale are feeling squeezed. I get that people paid big bux to get a killer light and it’s either vapor or broken. I get it. Trust me, I get it.
What to do about it? I have no idea. If HL makes it all right, great. Dunno if that means mailing out drivers for free. Dunno if that means having to wait longer for a light that’s 100%. Dunno. It’s when both sides get defensive or even just stop listening when things fall apart.
I’m not proposing any solution, and I’m sure as Hell not getting into the middle of it. I’m just stating my observations as to what the situation seems to be, and maybe both sides can “talk it out” without getting defensive or accusing each other of war-crimes or anything.
Is there any way to get a little clarification on what “those who had issue” means? I mean, mine is ‘working’ in that it doesn’t suffer from the single flash issue; it turns on and ramps and all that. However I do have issues with how hot it gets, the relatively poor ramping and so forth. I feel like the driver isn’t quite up to the expectations that were set when we joined this group buy.
So, would someone in my situation be sent a replacement driver or am I not included since mine ‘works’?
Come on, doing basic tests of a driver is several man-hours at most. And this is really a very basic validation. I would be disappointed to learn it was not performed to a $10 light. Let alone $100+…
Well, I’ve bought a Haikelite light that has half the specced performance (MT02). It was either gross negligence or intentional misleading. What I see in MT09R suggest that the former might really be the case. Though the fact that they never corrected their specs is not a sign of a good will.
Maybe we should be happy that they arrived closer to the specs this time. But that’s not what I feel really…
That said, yes, some of my comments were valid for XHP35 variant. I did not make it clear. Thank you for clearing this up.
Yes, I exagerrated. Please everyone (especially HaikeLite) accept my apologises. This is not a very low bin per se. This is a very low bin for a $100+ light.
Considering that initial GBs are often well below regular price, the lights above are still more expensive, but not so much. But they are also a class up, f.e. none of them uses a linear driver, let alone unregulated one. I may be wrong, but I expect there was more R&D to them as well.
And the MT09R XHP35 HI niche is not really well covered. I would expect L6 SMO with dedomed XHP70.2 P2 and FET+1 driver to have:
- better performance than MT09R
- better efficiency
- bad tint shift
- larger size
- but nevertheless more ergonomic
- on an initial GB, roughly half price
Well, that would be quite different really.
MT09R XHP35 HI has potential to do nearly everything dedomed L6 does in a smaller package, without tint shift.
It has no potential of doing it at the same price really, so significantly more than $60 was to be expected.
But it turned out to be not only much more than $60; it’s also far from what it could be.
Just like far from what I expected it to be.
What did I expect?
- close to performance specs
- no, I didn’t really expect it to meet them, 7500 lumens was unrealistic
- major functions working
- OK ramping UI (hoped for good, expected at least OK)
- 3-channel driver
Only one of them is met. And at the minimum level. Not all of them were clearly promised - I expected them because of the vague “TA style driver”……
A fixup action from Haikelite may improve the situation significantly. I sure hope it does.
Frankly, I have mixed feelings now.
There are both people who are happy about how the GB turned out and those who are not.
A backlash may reduce the number of GB and with them both the former and latter groups will be smaller.
It would be useful to know the proportions really. Typically, disappointed people are more willing to express their feelings.
Back to constructivism, what can be done to make future GB turn out better?
Frankly, I don’t have anything to add to what has been stated already. Haikelite got a couple of lessons. Are there some lessons that GB organisers can learn to better deal with GBs from other makers? I don’t see such.