aspire 18350 discontinued..?

[Geuzzz]

@djozz

I wished there would be a better 16340 cell. There used to be a high current 550mAh AW cell (the AW 16340 15C) but that one has been out of production for ages. I bet that if the right manufacturer is willing to make it, a 800mAh high current 16340 cell should be feasable.

Amen!

[moderator007]

@djozz

I wished there would be a better 16340 cell. There used to be a high current 550mAh AW cell (the AW 16340 15C) but that one has been out of production for ages. I bet that if the right manufacturer is willing to make it, a 800mAh high current 16340 cell should be feasable.

If you go by cell to cell volume, and use what ever they figured out in the 18350 cell, A little over 800 mah should be possible.
The best high current 16340 cell I have tested is the Trustfire IMR16340 650 mah. Who would have ever guessed, someone figured something out that worked better over the pond. Still not on par by volume with the 18350 cell but maybe its coming.

[ToyKeeper]

If my math is anywhere near correct, applying the Aspire 1150maH 18350 tech to other form factors should give us about…

• 32650: 9051 mAh
• 26650: 5587 mAh
• 20700: 3197 mAh
• 18650: 2262 mAh
• 18350: 1150 mAh
• 14500: 870 mAh
• 16340: 817 mAh
• 10440: 272 mAh
• 10180: 95 mAh

Something doesn’t add up there, since some of those are way off. Like, 18650s are up to 3500mAh now. Perhaps we should look at how things might be if we could apply 18650 tech to other sizes:

• 32650: 14000 mAh
• 26650: 8642 mAh
• 20700: 4946 mAh
• 18650: 3500 mAh
• 18350: 1778 mAh
• 14500: 1346 mAh
• 16340: 1264 mAh
• 10440: 421 mAh
• 10180: 147 mAh

To estimate, I’m just multiplying the volume ratio by the capacity, where the volume is estimated as the inner cylinder with a wall thickness subtracted from both diameter and length. I tried a few different wall thickness values, and the thinner the wall the better 18650 looks compared to the others. These values used a wall of 2mm.

http://toykeeper.net/torches/mah.py

[Barkuti]

@ToyKeeper

… 18650s are up to 3500mAh now. Perhaps we should look at how things might be if we could apply 18650 tech to other sizes:

…

Without disregarding your estimations at all, a problem I find is that if we define actual useable cell capacity as the minimum tested cell value at ≈0.2C discharge ratio down to 2.8V, the “3500” mAh cells do not meet a 3500mAh rating, it's more like (barely) ≈3350mAh for the Samsung 35E, 3250+mAh for the Panasonic/Sanyo NCR18650GA and (barely) ≈3200mAh for the LG INR18650-MJ1.

Cheers ^:)

[ToyKeeper]

Okay, same calculation, but using a different capacity:
./mah.py 18 65 3250

• 32650: 13000 mAh
• 26650: 8025 mAh
• 20700: 4592 mAh
• 18650: 3250 mAh
• 18350: 1651 mAh
• 14500: 1250 mAh
• 16340: 1174 mAh
• 10440: 391 mAh
• 10180: 137 mAh

I’d be pretty happy with a 1174 mAh 16340 cell in my little Olight S-Mini.

[beam0]

@djozz

I wished there would be a better 16340 cell. There used to be a high current 550mAh AW cell (the AW 16340 15C) but that one has been out of production for ages. I bet that if the right manufacturer is willing to make it, a 800mAh high current 16340 cell should be feasable.

I’m planning to get some of these Efest 16340 high drain, 700mAh / 7A discharge:
https://liionwholesale.com/collections/batteries/products/efest-imr-16340-700mah-7a-button-top-battery-wholesale-discount?variant=4431248580

Efest 16340 V2 IMR 700mAh - Button Top

Also these IMREN 700mAh are rated 6A Max Continuous, Rated 10A Max Pulse:
https://www.imrbatteries.com/imren-16340-700mah-flat-top-battery/

[moderator007]

@beam0

@djozz

I wished there would be a better 16340 cell. There used to be a high current 550mAh AW cell (the AW 16340 15C) but that one has been out of production for ages. I bet that if the right manufacturer is willing to make it, a 800mAh high current 16340 cell should be feasable.

I’m planning to get some of these Efest 16340 high drain, 700mAh / 7A discharge:
https://liionwholesale.com/collections/batteries/products/efest-imr-16340-700mah-7a-button-top-battery-wholesale-discount?variant=4431248580
Efest 16340 V2 IMR 700mAh - Button Top

Also these IMREN 700mAh are rated 6A Max Continuous, Rated 10A Max Pulse:
https://www.imrbatteries.com/imren-16340-700mah-flat-top-battery/

I tested the Efest here. 1100 lumen 16340 klarus Mi1C Resistor Mod - #13 by moderator007
Very similar to other 16340 in the 700mah range. Haven’t tried the IMREN, figured it was probably same cell as the Efest.
The best I found for high current was the Trustfire IMR16340 650mah.

[HKJ]

@ToyKeeper

Okay, same calculation, but using a different capacity:
./mah.py 18 65 3250

• 32650: 13000 mAh
• 26650: 8025 mAh
• 20700: 4592 mAh
• 18650: 3250 mAh
• 18350: 1651 mAh
• 14500: 1250 mAh
• 16340: 1174 mAh
• 10440: 391 mAh
• 10180: 137 mAh

I’d be pretty happy with a 1174 mAh 16340 cell in my little Olight S-Mini.

I have not checked how you do the volume calculations, but capacity do not scale linear with volume, due to factors like thickness of metal can, cell top construction and battery roll construction. This means that the fill factor will be better with larger cells.
But it gives a rough estimation of where the newer technology has been applied.

[Boaz]

i’m getting a kick out of my D4 with the 18500 tube . i like the size and think the 18350 would be too small . the 18500 fits nicely in the hand , filling up the entire palm nice to finally have a decent place to put all of my 18500’s that were having a nice long battery nap on the shelf .

[ToyKeeper]

@HKJ

I have not checked how you do the volume calculations, but capacity do not scale linear with volume, due to factors like thickness of metal can, cell top construction and battery roll construction. This means that the fill factor will be better with larger cells.

Yeah, I used a super simple method of estimating. It just takes the cell dimensions, subtracts 4mm from each (to represent a 2mm thick wall), and uses the remaining volume. So, for example, a 18650 cell would be calculated as a 14mm x 14mm x 61mm cylinder. A 16340 cell would be 12mm x 12mm x 30 mm.

http://toykeeper.net/torches/mah.py

It’s not based on any actual measurements or research… just speculation.

[Barkuti]

For the sake of adding my ¢2, here is a table of relative capacities considering all cell elements scaled in analog proportions:

• 26650 (34510.3952996839mm³ or 2.105953531376in³): ≈6885.19mAh
• 21700 (24245.2413040792mm³ or 1.479535400855in³): ≈4837.18mAh
• 18650 (16540.4853211502mm³ or 1.009362343441in³): ≈3300.00mAh (table reference).
• 18500 (12723.4502470387mm³ or 0.776432571877in³): ≈2538.46mAh.
• 18350 (8906.41517292706mm³ or 0.543502800314in³): ≈1776.92mAh.
• 14500 (7696.90200129499mm³ or 0.469693778049in³): ≈1535.61mAh.
• 16340 (6836.10561421139mm³ or 0.417164759606in³): ≈1363.87mAh.
• 10440 (3455.75191894877mm³ or 0.210882920757in³): ≈689.46mAh.
• 10180 (1413.71669411541mm³ or 0.086270285764in³): ≈282.05mAh.

Small cells don't look good here, they must be using too much can with little contents.

Cheers :-)

[Hugh_Johnson]

If we’re comparing highest drain available by size to 18650 as a baseline, I might use 3,000 mah. What’s really interesting to me here is the level of development obviously in favour of 18650.

[DavidEF]

@ToyKeeper

Okay, same calculation, but using a different capacity:
./mah.py 18 65 3250

• 32650: 13000 mAh
• 26650: 8025 mAh
• 20700: 4592 mAh
• 18650: 3250 mAh
• 18350: 1651 mAh
• 14500: 1250 mAh
• 16340: 1174 mAh
• 10440: 391 mAh
• 10180: 137 mAh

I’d be pretty happy with a 1174 mAh 16340 cell in my little Olight S-Mini.

If we ever got technology to match the numbers here, that would be amazing! I’d be happy to even get 85% of these numbers.

[Tom_Tom]

The shorter cells still have to include the same stack of parts at the positive end, e.g. flat and/or button top, gasket, vent mechanism, maybe a PTC fuse, even a PCB for “protected” versions.

This will be much the same thickness regardless of cell dimensions, so the smaller shorter cells are obviously at a disadvantage for overall energy density.

I particularly dislike the 14500, no more energy than an 18350 or even an eneloop, and seemingly no progress in development, an orphan I think. Also dangerous if confused with an AA in something that can’t take three times the voltage. I stick with them for a couple of BLF torches that can take no other. If only the tube had been made a couple of mm larger I could have used 18500 for far better performance.

Whereas the 16340 cells supplied in my “On The Road” torches are excellent, rated 700 mAh, seems reasonably genuine according to my Zanflare C4, and great operation at high current. This is a very good cell IMO, wish I could source them separately.

Ideally I would like to see more development of the 16340, along the lines of the Aspire cell. 16340 is substitutable for 18350, as well as use in many CR123 etc. platforms. And a slim torch with x2 good 16340 could be a great mini-blaster with suitable LED. A shorter mini-maglite size (hmm, maybe a project).

[DavidEF]

Wait, did I do something wrong? I got completely different numbers from everybody else. Here’s how mine looks:

• 32650: 6499
• 26650: 5107
• 20700: 4018
• 18650: 3250
• 18500: 2451
• 18350: 1651
• 14500: 1750
• 16340: 1370
• 10440: 913
• 10180: 320

I used Excel (maybe there’s my error!) and just calculated the diameter minus 4mm and the length minus 4mm, just like ToyKeeper said. Hmm… :question:

[Tom_Tom]

@DavidEF

I used Excel (maybe there’s my error!) and just calculated the diameter minus 4mm and the length minus 4mm, just like ToyKeeper said. Hmm… :question:

I think what is missing is the allowance for the parts at the positive end, that eat into the volume available for the chemistry. Length - 4mm may not be correct.

Edit: see Cell Mechanical Construction

[Barkuti]

@Hugh Johnson

If we’re comparing highest drain available by size to 18650 as a baseline, I might use 3,000 mah. …

Allright, high drain 3000mAh/18650 as baseline (all cell elements scaled in analog proportions):

• 32650 (52276.1017557342mm³/3.190083455812in³): ≈9481.48mAh.
• 26650 (34510.3952996839mm³/2.105953531376in³): ≈6259.26mAh
• 21700 (24245.2413040792mm³/1.479535400855in³): ≈4397.44mAh
• 18650 (16540.4853211502mm³/1.009362343441in³): ≈3000.00mAh.
• 18500 (12723.4502470387mm³/0.776432571877in³): ≈2307.69mAh.
• 18350 (8906.41517292706mm³/0.543502800314in³): ≈1615.38mAh.
• 14500 (7696.90200129499mm³/0.469693778049in³): ≈1396.01mAh.
• 16340 (6836.10561421139mm³/0.417164759606in³): ≈1239.88mAh.
• 10440 (3455.75191894877mm³/0.210882920757in³): ≈626.78mAh.
• 10180 (1413.71669411541mm³/0.086270285764in³): ≈256.41mAh.

@Tom Tom

…

I particularly dislike the 14500, no more energy than an 18350 or even an eneloop, and seemingly no progress in development, an orphan I think. Also dangerous if confused with an AA in something that can’t take three times the voltage. I stick with them for a couple of BLF torches that can take no other. If only the tube had been made a couple of mm larger I could have used 18500 for far better performance.

…

It obviously is not a fair comparison because AA Ni-MH has seen big brand development for the consumer market, though due to lackluster low voltage (0.8+V) boost driver technology and current losses 14500 cells usually are the best solution for 14500/AA torches featuring li-ion low voltage protection.

There are a couple of 16500 cells available from Efest and Sibeile, seen them on eBay from Torchy the Battery Boy (BLF user link). The Sibeile was rated 1200mAh with about the same drain capability as the Efest. Their sales were limited to the UK, though.

Cheers

Original post date: Mon, 04/02/2018 - 20:08. Edited for a small semantics fixup.

[CRX]

You guys need to start up a factory

[moderator007]

@CRX

You guys need to start up a factory

:+1: I second that.

[Tom_Tom]

@Barkuti

It obviously is not a fair comparison because AA Ni-MH has seen big brand development for the consumer market, though due to lackluster low voltage (0.8+V) boost driver technology and current losses it usually is the best solution for 14500/AA torches featuring li-ion low voltage protection.

Not so unfair. My old Olight S15, which is maybe a 250 lumen torch on NimH, 350 on Liion, has a pretty good buck-boost driver and runs just as well on an eneloop as a 14500. Absolute maximum brightness is slightly less. since a NimH can’t compete with the maximum current capability of the 14500, but for what I use it for (mostly lower levels), there is no point in the 14500, indeed the eneloop works better and I think for longer.

So single cell NimH/Liion drivers can work well.

Also the S15 doesn’t LVP the 14500, I’ve killed a couple due to this. Whereas it looks after the NimH, which are pretty indestructible anyway, even recoverable at 0V.

The S15 has been replaced in my affection by the On The Road M3, smaller, much much brighter (900 lumens), 5C tint etc, only possible with the very good Liion 16340 cell. Partnered with the coat pocket X5 26650, same performance, same LED, same tint, tighter beam, great duration, USB rechargeable, and includes another excellent OTR cell, 5300 mAh.

I’d like to see some capacity estimates with more realistic assumption of internal cell volume available for the chemistry. Suggest TK’s assumption of 1mm cell walls circumferential (2mm on diameter), but perhaps 5 or 6mm less length. Tweak this number until the results fit the facts, then review.