Perhaps the muggle mode needs to simply be a settings/mode lock. We could configure the light to the mode we wanted for muggle in question (limited ramping for my kids, 3 mode click setup for a friend, single mode for Grandpa) and then lock the light into that mode.
I just don’t hand my powerful lights to muggles. Problem solved. Lol
Keep some cheaper, less powerful and easier to use lights handy. EE X2R, X5R, X6R, etc…
One of my EDC lights has a X5/X6 driver, and I keep it at muggle mode because in thoughtless daily use I ‘m kind of a muggle myself, in that I need the light to work simple without suddenly blinding someone.
I like the muggle ramp and exit via a button sequence. Second in line the off-low-med-highish-off.
I was refering to the Eagle Eye lights. They are good for gifting out to muggles.
—
My Convoy L6 thread with XHP70.2, Texas Avenger FET driver, Narsil v1.2 ramping firmware, lighted side switch and cut down SMO reflector. Lots of amp draws on stock driver as well.
My Supfire L5-S thread with XHP70, Texas Avenger FET driver, NarsilM v1.0 ramping firmware and lighted side switch. My mini L6!
I’m not really sure why the need exists for a “muggle” mode at all, I mean, we all figured it out, they can too. Just like everyone, if a light is too complex and troublesome to use pick up another one. Look at the folks out there that drive…
I’m not really sure why the need exists for a “muggle” mode at all, I mean, we all figured it out, they can too. Just like everyone, if a light is too complex and troublesome to use pick up another one. Look at the folks out there that drive…
Agreed, this is hardly a torch to gift or lend to “muggles”. It is for connoisseurs. I understand (know, I designed some) that owners of some very very fast cars are usually offered separate key fobs for their “muggles” to use when they run down to the shops, pick the kids up from school, have them valet-parked etc. making them perform more like a basic Ford Fiesta.
This should be an extreme clean torch, no limits. By all means put something in to calm it down, as long as it is unobtrusive to conscientious owners, and “muggles” can’t disable it by accident. Can’t advise how that might be done securely, that’s a UI design decision for others.
Has anyone considered a mini dip switch on the board for selecting things like Muggle mode?
There are no free pins to sense the switch position, and no space on the board to put a switch.
CrashOne wrote:
We need consistency. The BLF Q8, GT have a 4 click lockout and the Emisar D4 has a 6 click lockout. FW3A a 6 click muggle mode. Maybe we should start giving some frequently used functions a standardized number of button clicks?
There is already an informal BLF standard of sorts:
1 click: on/mem
Hold: moon/low/ramp-up
2 clicks: high/turbo/ceiling
3 clicks: battcheck
4 clicks: lockout
5 clicks: momentary
6 clicks: muggle
However, this is only “standard” in the sense that a few BLF lights use it.
The Emisar lights are different because it’s what Hank wanted. And because there wasn’t really a standard at all then.
TK, maybe we should start with a user story for Muggle Mode?
Or at least list the applicable use cases?
This sounds like a good plan.
I actually started writing down some basic guidelines to help me think about similar issues. I’ve included it below as a starting point
“Muggles” use a flashlight because they want more light.
They use a flashlight because they want/need something portable, easily directed and/or free of the need for mains power.
When they have a flashlight in hand, they expect to find a way to turn it on.
Most expect an obvious switch.
Some may be trained by small maglights that twisting the head turns the light on.
When they operate the switch in the most obvious manner (like pressing a button) they expect what they came for — LIGHT!
They don’t expect moonlight/firefly mode they expect more light than that. If they don’t get it, they are apt to think the battery is dead/dying.
When they operate a switch, they expect the result to be immediately obvious. However, they may learn quickly if the light turns on after releasing the switch (rather than when it is first pushed), or after holding it down for a moment.
They expect that reversing or repeating the action that turned the light on will turn it off.
The second (3rd, 4th, etc) time they use the light, it should work the same way as the first time
If the light behaves unexpectedly (ie a hidden mode is triggered), doing the obvious thing (switching the light off) should return the light to its default/expected behavior.
Fumbling with the light, turning it off and on quickly, and other not uncommon deviations, should not activate hidden modes.
They don’t expect a flashlight to get dangerously or uncomfortably hot.
They don’t expect a flashlight to run through its battery in 15 minutes.
They don’t expect a flashlight to provoke an epileptic seizure.
These guidelines lead to some conclusions about “muggle mode”. I think they strongly suggest a light with a single mode maybe ~2.5W / 1C for an AA light. I think though that there is room for more modes, if one steps carefully. For example, in muggle mode, the light could always start on medium. Press and hold could cycle through additional modes (ie high, medium).
On the other hand, I am easily persuaded (not that my opinion is importat in this matter) that this light has no need of a muggle mode.
Hmm, I'm going to change my choice here. Personally, I'll choose No Muggle Mode Feature on the light. If someone else does come up with a workable Muggle mode, go for it! I'll still buy the light regardless But I'm choosing now to not have a dog in this fight (not enough tribal knowledge to know about standards and similar, etc.)
If you make muggle mode just a way to disable the more complex features and adjust a couple of defaults, it doesn’t take incredible amounts of space, and makes this an excellent gift. If it really starts to get hard to fit everything, then sure this can be culled, though surely there’s some paring back that could be done. This really doesn’t have to be solely an elite light or hard to use. It’s just not that unstable or anything like older lights could be, even with three leds and a high power driver. It’s got thermal regulation after all, even if it could still do something in a pocket if you enable turbo. Apart from disabling many of the shortcuts and settings in simplified mode, a good idea would be to tweak the performance related settings down a tad; not so much as to make this just a basic cheapo light with triple the price and a prettier build, but enough to prevent heat and battery life issues. I’ve tweaked my opinion a little.
So let’s say… limit muggle to max regulated (1000lm class) by default, but do add a boolean in the menu somewhere (maybe in the non muggle mode) to enable the full ramp in muggle.
Use a different, lower default thermal threshold temperature value so that it’s a bit more comfortable to hold / they don’t worry it’s going to overheat.
Reuse the ramping behavior as normal, such as ramping up from zero when starting from off, and going up unless you just went up or are at max.
Start from last value if off upon single click until battery removed; default to 1×7135 when power is reapplied. (This means if they really get confused by multiple brightness levels, they can remove the battery and put it back in and it will be in a normal mode.)
No multiclick shortcuts except a 6 or 8 click sequence to exit muggle mode, not even turbo.
Remember muggle mode even after residual charge drains, so that when taken out of a drawer (stored without battery in or what have you) it still works just like before it was stored.
I put up a muggle mode poll to count votes properly. BLF only has plurality/first-past-the-post style voting so I’m trying out a different site instead. As a bonus, this means TLF folks can vote too.
One question about the FW3A: would it be possible to have it as a host?
I’d love to buy one and stick some Samsung LH351Bs inside, and have a warm candle mode light for it.
I don’t think Lumintop has ever offered a host. They are not that kind of company. Even parts are hard to get from them. So you might have to buy the regular light and swap emitters.
—
My Convoy L6 thread with XHP70.2, Texas Avenger FET driver, Narsil v1.2 ramping firmware, lighted side switch and cut down SMO reflector. Lots of amp draws on stock driver as well.
My Supfire L5-S thread with XHP70, Texas Avenger FET driver, NarsilM v1.0 ramping firmware and lighted side switch. My mini L6!
I put up a muggle mode poll to count votes properly. BLF only has plurality/first-past-the-post style voting so I’m trying out a different site instead. As a bonus, this means TLF folks can vote too.
Thanks for the poll ToyKeeper. I’d be happy with most of the options but it’s great to be able to rank them.
If one-mode isn’t the preferred muggle option, would it be possible for users to create something similar by configuring the stepped ramping mode with one step and identical floor and ceiling values?
It may be worth mentioning that momentary mode is also a “1-mode” interface. It uses the last-ramped level, and it stays in momentary until power is disconnected. However, it doesn’t latch… the user must keep the button held to keep the light on.
If a regular mode is set to have identical floor and ceiling, it should work like 1-mode… but it’ll still have access to turbo on double click. And it’ll still have access to all the blinkies and config options.
One question about the FW3A: would it be possible to have it as a host?
I’d love to buy one and stick some Samsung LH351Bs inside, and have a warm candle mode light for it.
I don’t think Lumintop has ever offered a host. They are not that kind of company. Even parts are hard to get from them. So you might have to buy the regular light and swap emitters.
This is a precision complex electromechanical device, quite different from e.g a Convoy host. Tail E-switch, driver and body are an integrated design. I’m not sure what a host would look like or contain, or who would have the skills to configure one. Best to buy it complete (at the very reasonable price) then change the LEDs and flash the driver yourself, if it doesn’t suit you as-is.
Potentially it is 3/4 of a Q8, with latest driver and firmware updates, in a tiny (rather hot) package. I think it could be great.
I’m not sure it is suited as a warm candle mode light, there may be better/simpler/cheaper ways of doing that
I’m hoping there will be an option to add a diffuser, actually, to make it useful as a candle and a traffic wand. I haven’t found an off-the-shelf diffuser which works well on it though, so it might need to be custom.
I’m hoping there will be an option to add a diffuser, actually, to make it useful as a candle and a traffic wand. I haven’t found an off-the-shelf diffuser which works well on it though, so it might need to be custom.
I like the voting system you used, but i always feel guilty casting my vote – I have an opinion, but it’s not a particularly strong one, and it definitely wouldn’t affect my buying decision.
Unrelated, but are there any drivers that can run your UIs and don’t rely on a FET? I would love a TK/TA boost driver I could toss in my lights.
There doesn’t have to be a FET. For example, Mtn’s Moonlight Special driver can run FET+1 firmware even though it has no FET. Instead it has 7×350mA on one channel and 1×350mA on the other (or maybe it uses 380mA chips, I forget).
Perhaps the muggle mode needs to simply be a settings/mode lock. We could configure the light to the mode we wanted for muggle in question (limited ramping for my kids, 3 mode click setup for a friend, single mode for Grandpa) and then lock the light into that mode.
I was refering to the Eagle Eye lights. They are good for gifting out to muggles.
My Convoy L6 thread with XHP70.2, Texas Avenger FET driver, Narsil v1.2 ramping firmware, lighted side switch and cut down SMO reflector. Lots of amp draws on stock driver as well.
My Supfire L5-S thread with XHP70, Texas Avenger FET driver, NarsilM v1.0 ramping firmware and lighted side switch. My mini L6!
9 NarsilM user videos including GT
Texas_Ace BLF Calibrated Lumen tube
One, please.
There will always be more darkness than I have lights.
Another requested for No.455, total lights = 2.
I would vote for either 4 or 6 clicks in and out of muggle, and one mode on/off in muggle, around 150 lumens, as TK suggested.
I’m not really sure why the need exists for a “muggle” mode at all, I mean, we all figured it out, they can too. Just like everyone, if a light is too complex and troublesome to use pick up another one. Look at the folks out there that drive…
Dale
Agreed, this is hardly a torch to gift or lend to “muggles”. It is for connoisseurs. I understand (know, I designed some) that owners of some very very fast cars are usually offered separate key fobs for their “muggles” to use when they run down to the shops, pick the kids up from school, have them valet-parked etc. making them perform more like a basic Ford Fiesta.
This should be an extreme clean torch, no limits. By all means put something in to calm it down, as long as it is unobtrusive to conscientious owners, and “muggles” can’t disable it by accident. Can’t advise how that might be done securely, that’s a UI design decision for others.
One please
There are no free pins to sense the switch position, and no space on the board to put a switch.
There is already an informal BLF standard of sorts:
However, this is only “standard” in the sense that a few BLF lights use it.
The Emisar lights are different because it’s what Hank wanted. And because there wasn’t really a standard at all then.
I’d just as soon leave it out, since it uses space and I have no use for it. That could be an option too. I think I’ll go add that to the list.
change my vote to no option . lol See how easy I am to get along with.
This sounds like a good plan.
I actually started writing down some basic guidelines to help me think about similar issues. I’ve included it below as a starting point
These guidelines lead to some conclusions about “muggle mode”. I think they strongly suggest a light with a single mode maybe ~2.5W / 1C for an AA light. I think though that there is room for more modes, if one steps carefully. For example, in muggle mode, the light could always start on medium. Press and hold could cycle through additional modes (ie high, medium).
On the other hand, I am easily persuaded (not that my opinion is importat in this matter) that this light has no need of a muggle mode.
Mood: Dull & Dirty, like Nichia.
Hmm, I'm going to change my choice here. Personally, I'll choose No Muggle Mode Feature on the light. If someone else does come up with a workable Muggle mode, go for it!
I'll still buy the light regardless 
But I'm choosing now to not have a dog in this fight (not enough tribal knowledge to know about standards and similar, etc.)
-Ben
-Ben Walker
miswas
If you make muggle mode just a way to disable the more complex features and adjust a couple of defaults, it doesn’t take incredible amounts of space, and makes this an excellent gift. If it really starts to get hard to fit everything, then sure this can be culled, though surely there’s some paring back that could be done. This really doesn’t have to be solely an elite light or hard to use. It’s just not that unstable or anything like older lights could be, even with three leds and a high power driver. It’s got thermal regulation after all, even if it could still do something in a pocket if you enable turbo. Apart from disabling many of the shortcuts and settings in simplified mode, a good idea would be to tweak the performance related settings down a tad; not so much as to make this just a basic cheapo light with triple the price and a prettier build, but enough to prevent heat and battery life issues. I’ve tweaked my opinion a little.
So let’s say… limit muggle to max regulated (1000lm class) by default, but do add a boolean in the menu somewhere (maybe in the non muggle mode) to enable the full ramp in muggle.
Use a different, lower default thermal threshold temperature value so that it’s a bit more comfortable to hold / they don’t worry it’s going to overheat.
Reuse the ramping behavior as normal, such as ramping up from zero when starting from off, and going up unless you just went up or are at max.
Start from last value if off upon single click until battery removed; default to 1×7135 when power is reapplied. (This means if they really get confused by multiple brightness levels, they can remove the battery and put it back in and it will be in a normal mode.)
No multiclick shortcuts except a 6 or 8 click sequence to exit muggle mode, not even turbo.
Remember muggle mode even after residual charge drains, so that when taken out of a drawer (stored without battery in or what have you) it still works just like before it was stored.
1 please
I put up a muggle mode poll to count votes properly. BLF only has plurality/first-past-the-post style voting so I’m trying out a different site instead. As a bonus, this means TLF folks can vote too.
One question about the FW3A: would it be possible to have it as a host?
I’d love to buy one and stick some Samsung LH351Bs inside, and have a warm candle mode light for it.
voted. thanks TK
No host option is planned.
I don’t think Lumintop has ever offered a host. They are not that kind of company. Even parts are hard to get from them. So you might have to buy the regular light and swap emitters.
My Convoy L6 thread with XHP70.2, Texas Avenger FET driver, Narsil v1.2 ramping firmware, lighted side switch and cut down SMO reflector. Lots of amp draws on stock driver as well.
My Supfire L5-S thread with XHP70, Texas Avenger FET driver, NarsilM v1.0 ramping firmware and lighted side switch. My mini L6!
9 NarsilM user videos including GT
Texas_Ace BLF Calibrated Lumen tube
Thanks for the poll ToyKeeper. I’d be happy with most of the options but it’s great to be able to rank them.
If one-mode isn’t the preferred muggle option, would it be possible for users to create something similar by configuring the stepped ramping mode with one step and identical floor and ceiling values?
It may be worth mentioning that momentary mode is also a “1-mode” interface. It uses the last-ramped level, and it stays in momentary until power is disconnected. However, it doesn’t latch… the user must keep the button held to keep the light on.
If a regular mode is set to have identical floor and ceiling, it should work like 1-mode… but it’ll still have access to turbo on double click. And it’ll still have access to all the blinkies and config options.
This is a precision complex electromechanical device, quite different from e.g a Convoy host. Tail E-switch, driver and body are an integrated design. I’m not sure what a host would look like or contain, or who would have the skills to configure one. Best to buy it complete (at the very reasonable price) then change the LEDs and flash the driver yourself, if it doesn’t suit you as-is.
Potentially it is 3/4 of a Q8, with latest driver and firmware updates, in a tiny (rather hot) package. I think it could be great.
I’m not sure it is suited as a warm candle mode light, there may be better/simpler/cheaper ways of doing that
I’m hoping there will be an option to add a diffuser, actually, to make it useful as a candle and a traffic wand. I haven’t found an off-the-shelf diffuser which works well on it though, so it might need to be custom.
Yes please
BTW, could someone let TLF know about the muggle mode poll?
I like the voting system you used, but i always feel guilty casting my vote – I have an opinion, but it’s not a particularly strong one, and it definitely wouldn’t affect my buying decision.
Unrelated, but are there any drivers that can run your UIs and don’t rely on a FET? I would love a TK/TA boost driver I could toss in my lights.
There doesn’t have to be a FET. For example, Mtn’s Moonlight Special driver can run FET+1 firmware even though it has no FET. Instead it has 7×350mA on one channel and 1×350mA on the other (or maybe it uses 380mA chips, I forget).
Should have specified, any e-switch driver!
Put me down for 2 please
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