Why do you buy lights without High-CRI emitters?

Neutral color temperature does not render colors better than cool color temperature.

However, the cool temps do sometimes make objects outdoors at night look “washed out”. Neutral feels more pleasant and to me makes it easier to see things outdoors at night.

I will be the first to say I don’t know the difference in all the terms. But red doesn’t look black with a cool white emitter as said above and a blue house still looks blue. With the same 70cri leds one 6500 one 5000k or 4500 especially in the woods. I can make out things better. And my eyes don’t strain as much. Me personally can see things better with a warmer light all things equal. I have no doubt high cri makes colors pop now. I have a couple lights with them. But a neutral or warmer tint makes more a difference for me then 70 Vs 90 cri

Yes, that is exactly what I’m saying. I’ve seen it with my own eyes. A 3600K warm white light shows colors MUCH better than even a 5000K neutral white light. No difference in ‘CRI’ needed for a drastic difference in ‘visibility’.

it seems this way a little with my 6500k 9080, but 3600k warm could be more orangey making it warmer looking, making it seem higher CRI.
that make sense?..NOPE… lol.

I think you are confusing the Purkinje effect, which has to do with color perception of the human eye at low lumen levels, with CRI, which is a separate subject. The Purkinje effect is not the same as CRI

A cool white flashlight at say 100 lumens, will not make red look black. If you have a photo that demonstrates otherwise, I would like to learn more.

I agree neutral color temperature has less glare than cool color temperature.

what if you could have a neutral or warmer “tint” at 90 CRI, vs the same neutral or warmer “tint” at 70CRI?

why give up CRI to get neutral or warmer “tint” (btw, its neutral or warmer color temperature, not tint)

ok, I see you continue to miss my point
neutral color temperature has less glare, and less blue, than cool color temperature

however 3600k low CRI does not show colors better than 3600k high CRI

and 5000k color temperature with low CRI does show colors worse than 5000k color temperature with High CRI

you continue to miss the point that CRI is an independent variable from color temperature.

thats ok, and I mean no disrespect to you personally, your comments are very typical of the misuse of terms, even Elzetta does it, but it is not accurate.

Because color temperature seems to make a MUCH bigger difference in how pleasing the light output is.

  • The benefits of CRI are real, but they are very subtle. Hard to see unless you’re really looking for it or have low-CRI light to contrast it with.
  • The benefits of a neutral or warm tint are also real… and they aren’t subtle at all. They’re instantly noticeable.

Think of it like you’re painting a wall. The color temperature is the roller you use to paint 95% of the wall. The CRI is the fine brush you use to detail the edges. Both are useful, but if you could only have one, having 95% of the wall painted is far more noticeable.

Put another way, if I had to put into percentages what makes for a pleasing and useful flashlight beam in my opinion, I might come up with the following:

  • 30% Total lumens…………………… Output is very important for flashlights. And not just max burst output. Sustained output is also important.
  • 25% Beam pattern …………………… Depending on use, beam pattern is also very important. Sometimes more important than lumens.
  • 25% Color temperature……………. I usually prefer 4000-4500K
  • 15% Color Tint below the BBL…… I prefer rosy tint and dislike green tint
  • 5% CRI…………………………………. It’s a nice extra bonus when you can get it without sacrificing other factors, but is a minor factor compared to the others

High CRI lights are much more prevalent in Neutral White than Cool White
Low CRI lights are much more prevalent in Cool White
some Low CRI lights are also available in Neutral White

so if you like Neutral White, then High CRI is available in that color temperature
If you can get the Neutral White color temp you want, in High CRI, why would you not choose it, and go with Low CRI instead?

I agree beam, tint, brightness and CCT are all relevant variables, but this thread is not about those things, it is only asking why someone would buy Low CRI instead of High CRI.

Ive posted several examples of identical lights except for a choice of Low CRI and High CRI. The difference is the brightness, not the tint, not the color temperature, not the beam, not even the CCT on some of them.

so from where I sit, the main reason people buy Low CRI instead of High CRI is because they think brighter is better, even if it does not show colors as well

then we get the people saying their neutral white low CRI shows colors better than their cool white low CRI… but this thread is not about glare or blue content, its about Low CRI vs High CRI

clearly NW is less glaring than CW, no disagreement there
but to say colors look more realistic, is not necessarily accurate

maybe post some examples of your CW and NW low CRI lights illuminating the same Red Apple, or the palm of your hand, or some rare steak, or Salmon, or other things with red in them.

Please do not use green foliage to illustrate the advantage of NW low CRI over CW low CRI

green is not a challenge for low CRI, RED IS a challenge for Low CRI, but that does not mean Low lumens, and has nothing to do with Purkinje, rods, cones scotopic, mesotic or other types of vision based on brightness.

I feel like Im herding cats. Everytime I try to steer us back to the Original Topic, CRI, people scatter in all directions, bringing up CCT, Lumens, Tint, beam, etc

show me a photo of a NW High CRI and a NW Low CRI, and tell me why you would not choose the High CRI

that’s because the factors are NOT independent of each other.

Want to know why someone buys a low-CRI over a high-CRI light?

  • It’s because the low-CRI light has some OTHER advantage: such as lumens, beam pattern, color temp, tint, body options, price, etc..

If the only difference between two choices was CRI, then of course everyone would take the high-CRI option, but that’s never the case.

fair enough
lets use a specific example then

If you had the choice to buy an Olight S1 Mini Low CRI or an Olight S1 Mini High CRI, knowing the tint is the same, the beam is the same, the CCT is the same, and the price is the same, and the differences are only that the High CRI is 25% less bright, but has 29% higher CRI, would YOU buy the Low CRI model?

If you say yes, why, just for the extra lumens, even though it makes red things look brown, and makes colors wash out more? Note wash out is a Low CRI issue, not just a CCT issue.

or another example, HDS w 4000k high cri N219b, or HDS w 4000k low CRI XPL. Same beam, same CCT, but the N219b has tint closer to the BBL, and does “only” 200 lumens instead of 325.

would you buy the brighter light, even though the tint is above the bbl, and it makes red things look brown due to the low CRI?

I agree there are tradeoffs, but not every single variable favors Low CRI for the same CCT. The main thing Low CRI does better is that it is brighter, but the tint is worse and the CRI is worse. Is brightness more important to you than tint and CRI, such that you would buy the XPL instead of the N219b?

If so, lets just respect that we have different priorities, neither is wrong, just different.

I care least about max lumens, and care most about High CRI. I dont want bad tint, bad beam shape, or bad price, but when I can have less lumens and more CRI with better tint, I will give up the lumens to gain the better color rendering.

Im glad you and I agree that neutral white low CRI is not better at showing colors than neutral white high CRI. I think we also agree that a neutral white Nichia most likely has better tint than a Neutral White Cree.

So my answer to the OP is, people buy Low CRI because max lumens is more of a priority for them. and many have no experience with good High CRI neutral white with good tint, good beam, and good enough brightness.

Your example:
If the choice was purely between 25% lumens versus 29% CRI and everything else was equal I’d probably go for the high CRI.

However, most low-CRI neutral white emitters tend to be in the 80 CRI range (at least for the ones in my lights). So going from low to high CRI usually means a gain of just 10-12 CRI, not the 29 in your hypthetical.

If the very large gap between low and high CRI in your hypothetical is because you were describing cool-white color temperature lights, then I wouldn’t have been in the market for either light since one of my criteria is usually “must be neutral white”. I find cool white to be harsh and unpleasant regardless of CRI and avoid them.

A more realistic scenario I face is like that for the Emisar D4 choosing between high-CRI nichias, or lower CRI XPL HI:
3800 lumens for the Nichia 219C v. 4300 lumens for XPL HI. And the XPL HI version has better tint, better color temperature, much better throw, and runs cooler so can maintain high output longer.

So yes, in your example I would probably go for the high-CRI option assuming both options were neutral white and did not have greenish tint. But the example you described seems unrealistic and exaggerated to me. When presented with realistic choices when buying a flashlight, the benefits of the high-CRI option (if there even is one) almost always seem to be outweighed by the tradeoffs.

I do make the decision on a case-by-case basis though, and do consider high-CRI if it is an option.

For example:
The light I received yesterday is high-CRI and I’m quite pleased with it. Zebralight H604C headlamp with high-CRI CREE XHP 50.2. This light features:

  • 4000K color temp
  • Tint is yellow, but not green. Quite pleasant.
  • Fairly good output of 1700 Lumens.
  • Small and lightweight

Overall, I quite like this emitter. It’s better than the 4500K neutral white XHP 50.2 in my Zebralight SC600w IV Plus, which has a slightly greenish tint. If Blizzard offered an SC600c IV Plus with the same emitter as the H604c, I would prefer it over the SC600w IV Plus. The slight reduction in total lumens would be outweighed by the nicer tint and CRI.

Actually, I think it’s you who are missing ‘the point’ all of us are trying to make. We’re not saying that “we want low CRI” or “we don’t want high CRI” but that is what you keep responding to. Look at your quoted text here. You’re implying that I said I prefer low CRI 3600k and/or 5000k over high CRI 3600k and/or 5000k respectively. What I said wasn’t anywhere near that. I said that low CRI 3600k does a noticeably better job of showing objects than low CRI 5000k. I would also believe that high CRI 3600k most likely does a better job showing objects than high CRI 5000k.

What I, and others, are saying here is that CRI is not a priority, meaning we could take it or leave it. Of course high CRI is a nice addition. We keep saying that over and over. We’re just saying that color temp and tint make such a huge noticeable difference that they MUST become priorities to anyone with a preference. But, CRI is something we could “live without” if it just happens to not be available, because the impact on our usage and enjoyment of the light is low. We know it’s an independent variable. It happens to be a variable that doesn’t affect us much, compared to the other variables.

Well said.

Yes… that sums it up very nicely. :+1:

So, are we summing up that even amongst the “dissenters,” there is agreement that high-CRI is very nice to have in many use cases? And that it’s more of an availability problem? I.e., not just that lights with high-CRI emitters are limited, but that even when they are available, the tint/temp choices are sub-optimal in many cases? Because I’m pretty sure tint and temp aren’t limitations of the tech.

I’m not even sure exactly what flavor of nichia are in my Maratac AA, Lumintop Tool, and Reylight mini, but I’m sure I have no complaints about the tint and temp on them, pretty much perfect for my taste. Also, as indicated earlier: Yes the difference is subtle, at first, but at least for me once I got used to it, it’s hard to go back.

To hear a bunch of flashaholics downplaying and otherwise pooh-poohing the importance of accurate color rendering on the objects their illuminating is bizarre to me. It’s like watching a group of people agrue for standard def over high def, or hamburgers made with filler over 100% beef, or cheap domestic beer over craft beer…
Different strokes, lol.

By the look of this poll so far, it sounds like I’ll need to gird my loins and move into mods to really get what I want. I don’t see much pressure on manufacturers to offer better high-CRI lights coming from this group anytime soon.

There are many factors when it comes to choosing a light.

  • CRI is just one of those factors.
  • CRI is a relatively minor factor.

Think of it like graphics in computer games. There are different factors which make for impressive graphics:

  • Resolution: you could play at 640x480 or 1920x1080
  • Screen size: you could play on 12” monitor or a 30” monitor.
  • Color Depth: you could play in 16 bit or 24 bit color.

High CRI is like the color depth option, while color temperature, tint, lumens and beam pattern are like the other options. Sure it helps having the extra colors, but screen resolution and screen size are a lot more important.

_

After I came to CPF and BLF I saw all the posts about high-CRI and jumped on the bandwagon. I NEEDED to get high CRI lights. They were the thing to get. Everyone was talking about how much better things looked with high-CRI.

But then something happened: I tried using my high-CRI lights and compared their beams to lower-CRI lights. I also learned about the differences between CRI, color temperature and tint. After that instead of just being on the bandwagon, I actually made up my own mind based on my observations and drew my own conclusions.

… and I have concluded that high-CRI really isn’t that noticeable most of the time. Not having it doesn’t feel like a detriment. And though I own both high-CRI and low-CRI lights, 95% of the time I’ll reach for a low-CRI light.

I find I can identify objects more quickly with higher CRI lights even when that comes at a cost of about 30% output to go from 70 to 90, all else being comparable. When trying to explain it quickly, I often say it’s the difference between a stick and a snake on the trail.

It might be an exception if the main use of the light is to spot highly contrasting objects, like white sheep on a green hill. My stuff is always more general-use than that though, and because human perception of brightness isn’t linear, it would take a huge percentage difference in output before it mattered much.

If I really want the light but not the emitter I’ll buy it and swap to what I want.
So many reasons to buy a light, nowadays many lights have good emitter options. If not good enough there are plenty of how-to videos for swapping emitters. Else there are plenty of modders.
Welcome to the League of Nighttime Art Inspectors using Cellphone Cameras and Budget Flashlights,

FWIW, here are beam shots of a few different lights ranging from 65 CRI to 92 CRI, including one which is wide-spectrum. No post-processing has been applied, except for the camera’s auto-white-balance mode to minimize color temperature differences and simulate how they look in person.

Without looking at the file names, can you sort them in order of lowest to highest CRI?

A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
F:
G:

… and here’s one which theoretically has 100 CRI since it’s an incandescent light. However, its 2700K tint makes everything look yellow. Here’s how it looks in person for me:
H:

1 Thank

I like my Nichia E03H. :) Usually I don’t have the diffuser on. The light it makes is very nice to me.

I did a runtime test on moonlight with a standard eneloop, it reached 256 hours before I shut it off.

I have generally found that emitter characteristics work like a dart board. Here’s how the concepts map:

  • Color temperature is which concentric ring the dart lands in. The center is neutral white, and the outer rings are increasingly warm or cool.
  • Tint is the angle of rotation, like whether it hits at 2-o’clock or 7 o’clock. Some tints look better than others.
  • CRI is how close the dart is to the center of the cell it landed in. It certainly helps, but not generally as much as the other factors.