The FW3A a TLF BLF special elegant triple powerful flashlight

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teacher
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DavidEF wrote:
jon_slider, don’t you think that’s being a bit manipulative? I mean, of course the 5000k doesn’t get 50% or more of the votes, but it DOES have the highest percentage for a single CCT choice in that poll. And the second choice, as you can see, is 4500k, which isn’t really that much different. So, MOST people would, in fact, be happy with a ~5000k light.
+1 DavidEF Thumbs Up

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spaceminions
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Or perhaps most people would be most happy with a 4500k light, since it’s the least different from the three as a whole? Silly

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bansuri
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DavidEF wrote:
jon_slider, don’t you think that’s being a bit manipulative? I mean, of course the 5000k doesn’t get 50% or more of the votes, but it DOES have the highest percentage for a single CCT choice in that poll. And the second choice, as you can see, is 4500k, which isn’t really that much different. So, MOST people would, in fact, be happy with a ~5000k light.

Jon sows chaos wherever possible!
But seriously, it’s obvious that the BLFers who voted 4500 were wanting to vote 5000k but tried to appease the warm tint crowd. They would take a small loss for the greater good. That’s how we 5000k folks roll.

The HI option is sounding good for a versatile pocket light.
Love listening to you smart folks talk about all the differences in beams and optics. Who would’ve thought all the crazy differences in optics paired with different emitters? Sounds like you’ve almost got it worked out for a perfect combination.

I’ve made this awful vow to not buy another light until Black Friday, unless it’s this one (technically 2). I need this special elegant triple!

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spaceminions
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I decided to show that a floody light can be perfectly usable outdoors. The treeline is 200ft away according to satellite images.


This is roughly what it looked like in real life with eyes that had just been looking at a white computer screen for an hour; so they were not at all dark adjusted. However the eyes have better dynamic range; the nearby stuff doesn’t glare like that and the darker stuff isn’t as dark. This is using a d4 219c which due to the cells in it, their state of charge, the lee minus green filter, etc should throw pretty close to the same as the fw3a would with the samsung leds. However the fw3a would actually have significantly more lumens than this d4, oddly enough. That’s impressive, from a light with 1 less emitter.

So what can I conclude from this? Well, if this is how it looks without dark adaptation, then with it, I would not need anything like turbo. Furthermore, even this amount of flood is still not even covering the width of the frame; so it’s maybe 55 degrees of light or less before it fades off. As you can see, this is a much nicer angle of view that doesn’t make for tunnel vision when you’re looking around with it. It covers a good area with light, so if you were looking for something, I daresay you’d find it rather quickly. If I wanted to look around for longer, of course I’d switch to something with more mass and heatsinking like a q8, or move up to a c8 or d1s if I really needed to keep whatever was happening 200ft away lit brightly for the longest time possible. But for EDC use, checking out the area around me and then dropping back down to say half of that brightness, which gives you 141ft if this is 200, or even 1/4 of max brightness, which still gives you 100ft, seems like a perfectly reasonable thing. Heck, just for keeping an eye on what’s within a ~70ft radius would only take 400 lumens or so; the fw3a can surely dissipate that amount of heat with a lh351d easily. It’ll even smoothly ramp down the brightness so you will barely notice the change.That’s all assuming the same exposure as here, which is based on a NON-adapted eye!

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Eraursls1984
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DavidEF wrote:
jon_slider, don’t you think that’s being a bit manipulative? I mean, of course the 5000k doesn’t get 50% or more of the votes, but it DOES have the highest percentage for a single CCT choice in that poll. And the second choice, as you can see, is 4500k, which isn’t really that much different. So, MOST people would, in fact, be happy with a ~5000k light.

Somewhat, but to say that most would be happy with 5000K isn’t necessarily correct either. I love 4500K and 4000K, but wouldn’t be happy with 5000K. 5000K is decent during the day, but I personally rarely use flashlights during the day. For me 4500K is perfect for daytime and decent at night. 4000K is great at night, and decent during the day. Under 4000K is great at night, but terrible during the day.
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If it helps at all, I took beam shots of two lights and put them into an animated GIF:

  • 2.1 cd/lm: XP-G2 ~4600K w/ 10623 optic, at 108 lm. (tint is a mix: 5D+3D+3D+2B)
  • 4.0 cd/lm: XP-L HI 5000K w/ 10511 optic, at 107 lm.

The floody one is the closest thing I have to how the LH351D is expected to look.

I didn’t attempt to correct for the difference in color temperature. They used the same exposure and settings, and I shot the floodier one first, so it auto-white-balanced for that one and made the 5000K emitter look a bit colder than it should. Both were aimed at the center of the green part of the tree.

So, this is basically the entire extent of throwy-vs-floody available to the FW3A. They’re all pretty floody, but not to the same degree.

spaceminions
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ToyKeeper wrote:
If it helps at all, I took beam shots of two lights and put them into an animated GIF:
  • 2.1 cd/lm: XP-G2 ~4600K w/ 10623 optic, at 108 lm. (tint is a mix: 5D+3D+3D+2B)
  • 4.0 cd/lm: XP-L HI 5000K w/ 10511 optic, at 107 lm.

The floody one is the closest thing I have to how the LH351D is expected to look.
(…)


Hmm, simulated samsung == SimSung ? I like it, btw.

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JasonWW
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ToyKeeper wrote:
If it helps at all, I took beam shots of two lights and put them into an animated GIF:

Nice pics. Thumbs Up
The xp-l has that typical looking TIR beam that I’m used to and don’t like which is a defined hotspot and very weak spill. I dont like that for walking around at night. I have to swing the light around to see left, right and near my feet. I gave up on that style.

The simulated is harder for me to see the hotspot, but it does look like the spill light is much brighter. Something I could hold steady in front of me and see everything as I walk along. Plus it would be better at close range as well. So I prefer this optic shape/style.

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JasonWW wrote:
The xp-l has that typical looking TIR beam that I’m used to and don’t like which is a defined hotspot and very weak spill. I dont like that for walking around at night. I have to swing the light around to see left, right and near my feet. I gave up on that style.

The simulated is harder for me to see the hotspot, but it does look like the spill light is much brighter. Something I could hold steady in front of me and see everything as I walk along. Plus it would be better at close range as well. So I prefer this optic shape/style.

With a 10507 optic, it’s pretty much just a hotspot with some corona artifacts around it. With domed Cree emitters, the edge of the hotspot has a different tint than the rest of the beam. It looks pretty good with Nichia 219b though, and would probably look decent with LH351D. It just has twelve petals around the hotspot, like hour markers on a clock — if the clock had major lines at 4, 8, and 12 instead of 3, 6, 9, and 12.

That’s the same hotspot-only beam type as the Noctigon Meteor, except the Meteor has 24 petals instead of 12 so they’re harder to see. I’m not a big fan of this beam type, but that’s just a personal preference.

The frosted 10511 optic has actual spill around the hotspot, and blends colors pretty well, but the spill has no defined edge. It can easily be polished to increase throw, or left as-is for more flood. The twelve petals can be seen when looking very carefully, but they’re mostly not noticeable.

The floody 10623 quad optic I used makes it even harder to tell where the hotspot ends and the spill begins. It mostly just gets gradually dimmer as it gets farther away from the center. No artifacts of any type are visible. For a triple, the equivalent would be a 10508 or 10509 optic. Any FW3A can be made extra-floody like this by changing the optic.

Quick reference:

  • 10507: Clear narrow-spot triple.
  • 10511: Frosted narrow-spot triple.
  • 10508, 10509: Frosted triples with medium and wide spots.
  • 10623: Frosted medium-spot quad.
JasonWW
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ToyKeeper wrote:

The frosted 10511 optic has actual spill around the hotspot, and blends colors pretty well, but the spill has no defined edge. It can easily be polished to increase throw, or left as-is for more flood.

So if you used this frosted optic it will be quite floody. Then if you wanted more throw you could just polish it? That kind of seems like the best of both worlds as long as the people who want more throw were actually willing to do a little polishing.

My Convoy L6 thread with XHP70.2, Texas Avenger FET driver, Narsil v1.2 ramping firmware (old), lighted side switch and cut down SMO reflector. Lots of amp draws on stock driver as well. 

My Supfire L5-S thread with XHP70, Texas Avenger FET driver, NarsilM v1.0 ramping firmware and lighted side switch. My mini L6! 

9 NarsilM user videos for BLF Q8, GT, GT Mini and ROT66

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jon_slider wrote:
Nude Gnus the Silent Majority does not want 5000k !{width:50%}https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1757/27790919797_a7e6b9ab76_m.jpg!

It averages out to about 4600. Of course, there is no way of telling how informed or accurate the voters were. Some will know exactly what their real preference is, some will be judging it by a few lights they have which may not be exactly the value they believe.

Even if you provided 4600 as the average, it isn’t safe, because that 4600 would almost certainly make the 4500 crowd happy, but it might be unacceptable to either the 5000 or 4000 camps, no way of predicting the extent of that. Likewise 5000 may be ok for a larger percentage than 4000, which seems likely, or it may be the other way round if the 4000 camp are more hard-line, which may well be the case.

In order to judge real preference properly, each person would have to do something like side-by-side comparative blind testing (blind as in unknown values) of a range of otherwise equivalent lights maybe 100k apart, settle on one, and then peel off the label to reveal the calibrated value. I would love to be able to do a test like this, but it doesn’t seem realistic. If I were running a custom flashlight shop I would set up something like this, similar to having a firing range at the back of a gun shop, but there isn’t the market to support something like that.

Beam me up!

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ToyKeeper wrote:
djozz, do you think the current-based tint shift shouldn’t be mentioned? Is it equal to or less than the effect seen on other emitters?

If mentioning it gets the message delivered of a modest tint shift from ok at low current to very nice at high current, then yes.
But there is ‘green’ in the description, and ‘tint shift’, so what sticks is different from what is intended. In that case it maybe more fair to the led not mentioning it at all Smile

The XP-G3 4000K 90CRI and the XP-L2 4000K 90CRI are ugly green at all currents (as well as all 4000K 90CRI Osram Oslon leds newer than the very first generation, and the LG H35F0 4000K 90CRI), compared to which the LH351D 4000K 90CRI at low current has a wonderful tint. In fact several BLF-members are less than a fan of the rosiness of the Nichia’s, for them this Samsung led may have the perfect balance in the tint.

And perhaps it needs mentioning once more: in my experience, once using a flashlight in the real world instead of your wall, CRI has clearly more impact than tint, the tint must be really off to make a flashlight unpleasant to use.

link to djozz tests 

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Juste send mine without LEDs at all… even without MCPCB would be fine.
I’ll swap them anyway…
But please stay at 30$ !

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I found some tint shift measurements by maukka, and the LH351D doesn’t appear to be any worse than other emitters. So, probably not worth mentioning.

Tracking says a prototype should arrive in the next 18 hours, so the plan is to do some testing on that and then put the emitter poll online. I hope the comparison data is in order now, but there’s still a little time to make corrections. Also, I’m not sure if the flood/throw pic should be included or not.

http://toykeeper.net/torches/fw3a/emitter-poll.html

About the prototype, I have no idea what emitters it’ll have. Probably whatever was left over from other projects; the first prototype had CW XP-G2.

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I’ll take 2 please.

Sorry for my bad English.

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Does it have to boil down to just one LED flavor? or is it possible to have two versions right from the start?

 

What I gather from the discussion of the last few days is that a single LED flavor will almost inevitably leave a good (perhaps even large) portion of potential buyers unhappy.

With two version its much more likely to please the majority.

My suggestions for that would be these two:

  • XP-L HI 5000K (highest throw, highest lumens, but low CRI & high cost)
  • Samsung LH351D 4000K 90CRI (high CRI, no extra cost, but least throw) [if the Samsungs are unobtainable for some reason > Nichia 219C 4000K 90CRI]

 Both variations have their benefits.

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Thumbs Up …. Good idea if possible.

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I rarely use my torches in daylight, but mostly at night, or to peer into dark places.

And I prefer light levels that don’t upset my dark-adapted eyes too much, rarely at turbo levels, often at firefly or moonlight level.

Meaning my eyes are probably operating in the mesopic or even scotopic range, rather than photopic.

I wonder whether a lot of tint preference is under artificial conditions, e.g. bouncing off white walls at close range and at high levels, whereas under my sort of usage at much lower illumination levels my eyes see the tint very differently.

I much prefer the warmer tints, 4000K or below, with good CRI, for me the difference is very marked, I don’t like cool white at-all, neutral or warm works much better. My theory is that the warmer tints, more biased towards red rather than blue, compensate for the Purkinje shift towards blue sensitivity at lower illumination levels, keeping the colours more “natural” looking.

Edit: which is why it is so difficult to take realistic photos of outdoor night-time scenes, the digital camera does not respond the same way as the human eye. Perhaps someone could develop a Purkinje shift plugin for photoshop to simulate the effect with a set of curves for different wavelengths.

I realise that those who prefer to light things up “as bright as day” may have different preferences.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopic_vision

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purkinje_effect

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I don’t have any experience with the LH351D 4000K 90CRI, but I value Djozz’s opinion. If he likes it, I’m sure it would be a great choice. Perhaps it would be best to keep the light as cheap as possible, and not go with the xpl-hi, at first. I’m sure the cheaper it is in the beginning, the more successful it will be. If its a huge hit like I’m certain it will be, hopefully more flavors will be released later with different emitter choices. This formula has worked will for the Emisar line.

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ToyKeeper wrote:
I don’t know if it’ll be possible to get Lumintop to make more than one flavor, but if so, it sounds like it’d be a good idea to do a throwy(ish) flavor with XP-L HI and an extra-floody flavor with LH351D.

I’ll let the poll run first though, along with a poll about color temperature. There are several communities interested now, and hopefully it’ll help to have more quantified preference data.

Is it possible that the team test the different LEDs in the prototype and we can get numbers and beamshoots?

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XPL hi is old, ineffective, with ugly CRI, and expensive. If it be used I would simply buy another D4 … I vote for any other led.

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electricjelly wrote:
I don’t have any experience with the LH351D 4000K 90CRI, but I value Djozz’s opinion. If he likes it, I’m sure it would be a great choice. Perhaps it would be best to keep the light as cheap as possible, and not go with the xpl-hi, at first. I’m sure the cheaper it is in the beginning, the more successful it will be. If its a huge hit like I’m certain it will be, hopefully more flavors will be released later with different emitter choices. This formula has worked will for the Emisar line.

Seconded. 4000K. The floodier beam is a big plus for me too, when out searching for things that could be anywhere, possibly brown-coloured, or dripping red stuff.

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Tom Tom wrote:
electricjelly wrote:
I don’t have any experience with the LH351D 4000K 90CRI, but I value Djozz’s opinion. If he likes it, I’m sure it would be a great choice. Perhaps it would be best to keep the light as cheap as possible, and not go with the xpl-hi, at first. I’m sure the cheaper it is in the beginning, the more successful it will be. If its a huge hit like I’m certain it will be, hopefully more flavors will be released later with different emitter choices. This formula has worked will for the Emisar line.

Seconded. 4000K. The floodier beam is a big plus for me too, when out searching for things that could be anywhere, possibly brown-coloured, or dripping red stuff.

I suppose when you are losing your livestock to vampire bats, 4000K high CRI is your ideal

Beam me up!

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And werewolves Wink

Best to be prepared.

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How about the Samsung LH351C (die size is in between LH351B and LH351C). It is recently introduced so probably the bins are good, it will not have the enormous flood of the 1D but should still have good output and efficiency. and it is cheap, about $0.50 when bought in quantities. (Some high CRI options ( Wink ) : 4000K 90CRI at Digikey: https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/samsung-semiconductor-inc/SPHW...)(5000K 90CRI: https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/samsung-semiconductor-inc/SPHW...)

link to djozz tests 

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Offtopic: I don’t get the nude gnus joke.
sth. like nude news??

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Tom Tom wrote:
And werewolves Wink

Best to be prepared.

Moonlight mode is great for screening the suspect population

Beam me up!

Tom Tom
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joechina wrote:
Offtopic: I don’t get the nude gnus joke. sth. like nude news??

Edit: It’s surprising joke, by TK, aided and abetted by DB Custom.

Tom Tom
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Zulumoose wrote:
Tom Tom wrote:
And werewolves Wink

Best to be prepared.

Moonlight mode is great for screening the suspect population

A silver version, with a wooden “glass breaker” spike would be perfect, for dual use.

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AEDe wrote:
XPL hi is old, ineffective, with ugly CRI, and expensive.

That word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

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