The FW3A a TLF BLF special elegant triple powerful flashlight

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zak.wilson
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jon_slider wrote:
Nude Gnus the Silent Majority does not want 5000k !{width:50%}https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1757/27790919797_a7e6b9ab76_m.jpg!

This is the result of a relatively broken voting method called plurality voting. It does not capture more complex real-world preferences like “I prefer 5000K, but I wouldn’t be upset with 4500 or 4000, both of which I strongly prefer to 3500, but even that is better than 6500”.

There are voting systems that do capture such preferences, and TK will be using one for the poll.

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Tixx
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I don’t know how to vote. Not sure where this email box is that I’m supposed to put my username…feeling kinda lost. Smile

zak.wilson
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The actual poll isn’t live yet.

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fritz15
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Hi all,

here are some quick pictures of the second FW3A prototype!




Generally, I feel like the build quality is really great. I also like the beam a lot although there are now XP-G3s in use.
I’ll provide a little more feedback within the next few days since I’m in the middle of moving to another apartment.

I hope you still like the light although it differs partly from the initial design.

Geuzzz
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Looks real good Fritz. Still hoping for a more raw finish but the design looks much better than in earlier pictures.

varbos
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Important for me is the emitter efficiency – output vs heat for a given current.

The Emisar D4 with 219s is honestly the dumbest and least usable light I own, it gets hot so quickly, then throttles down to the output of a 1xAAA keychain light. A silly party trick of a flashlight. Ramping is also fun initially but I am done with it now, I prefer discrete levels.

Naturally a hot rod triple in tiny package will get hot but since it is not possible to win the “max lumens” in tiny package title (D4 already wins it), the aim for FW3A should be to win the “practical & usable lumens” in tiny package title.

Tixx
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zak.wilson wrote:
The actual poll isn’t live yet.

Thank you!

varbos wrote:
Important for me is the emitter efficiency – output vs heat for a given current.

The Emisar D4 with 219s is honestly the dumbest and least usable light I own, it gets hot so quickly, then throttles down to the output of a 1xAAA keychain light. A silly party trick of a flashlight. Ramping is also fun initially but I am done with it now, I prefer discrete levels.

Naturally a hot rod triple in tiny package will get hot but since it is not possible to win the “max lumens” in tiny package title (D4 already wins it), the aim for FW3A should be to win the “practical & usable lumens” in tiny package title.

Definitely!

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jon_slider wrote:
Nude Gnus the Silent Majority does not want 5000k

To solve this we must go to a ballottage with the two most voted

Sorry for my bad English (gogole transtorla)

Tixx
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g_sintornillos wrote:
jon_slider wrote:
Nude Gnus the Silent Majority does not want 5000k

To solve this we must go to a ballottage with the two most voted

Instant Runoff Voting would work and the winner would take 51% or more at that point.

g_sintornillos
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Noir wrote:

Does it have to boil down to just one LED flavor? or is it possible to have two versions right from the start?


 


What I gather from the discussion of the last few days is that a single LED flavor will almost inevitably leave a good (perhaps even large) portion of potential buyers unhappy.


With two version its much more likely to please the majority.


My suggestions for that would be these two:



  • XP-L HI 5000K (highest throw, highest lumens, but low CRI & high cost)

  • Samsung LH351D 4000K 90CRI (high CRI, no extra cost, but least throw) [if the Samsungs are unobtainable for some reason > Nichia 219C 4000K 90CRI]


 Both variations have their benefits.

I like that!

Sorry for my bad English (gogole transtorla)

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Eraursls1984 wrote:
to say that most would be happy with 5000K isn’t necessarily correct either. I love 4500K and 4000K, but wouldn’t be happy with 5000K. 5000K is decent during the day, but I personally rarely use flashlights during the day. For me 4500K is perfect for daytime and decent at night. 4000K is great at night, and decent during the day. Under 4000K is great at night, but terrible during the day.

well said, I resemble those remarks

DavidEF wrote:
jon_slider, don’t you think that’s being a bit manipulative?
lol, did I make a math error?
spin it any way you like, thats what stats are for

Im starting to think you’re part of the Vocal Minority that does not care about High CRI, thinks Low R9 is a fair trade for throw, and calls 5000k “neutral”.

While I resemble the Silent Majority, that Loves High CRI and wont settle for Low R9. And we all know that 4000k is the One True Neutral…

Something tells me you might not agree.:-)

anyway, its just Nude Gnus, a fun way to pass the time waiting for the New and Improved FW3A to materialize from the ether, with the Ultimate EDC LED for High Cri Throw.

Not to be confused with the 2004 60 lumen HDS Ultimate EDC XRGT

flashback to more gNude Gnus
http://outdoors.magazine.free.fr/spip.php?article248
“This light is computer controlled- the brightness is regulated, the temperature of the light is monitored and automatically kept at a safe level…

this line of lights has a fabulously pure white tint (GT= Guaranteed tint) and improved runtime over previous models by 50% (XR= extended runtime). Luxeon LED emitters are never identical in efficiency, brightness or tint due to slight manufacturing variances. Luxeon LEDs used in handheld lighting are very rarely “pure” white but often give off a slight green, blue, or purple tint. The LEDs placed in the XRGT lights are hand-selected for both tint and efficiency.

Believe it or not, the maximum brightness of the Ultimate 60 has greater throw than the incandescent. That’s a tremendous amount of light for one 123A battery to sustain, and though I initially doubted the advertised runtime of 30 minutes, a test revealed a runtime of approximately 35 minutes.”

djozz wrote:
And perhaps it needs mentioning once more: in my experience, once using a flashlight in the real world instead of your wall, CRI has clearly more impact than tint, the tint must be really off to make a flashlight unpleasant to use.
The Silent Majority has spoken the OneTruth!

ToyKeeper wrote:
I’m not sure if the flood/throw pic should be included or not.
I would say Yes, thats absolutely Brilliant Smile

Noir wrote:
Both variations have their benefits.
totally agree, which is why I have more than one light, and often buy lights knowing the LED will be swapped
zak.wilson
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Tixx wrote:
Instant Runoff Voting would work and the winner would take 51% or more at that point.

TK’s page says she’ll be using the Schulze Condorcet method. This is a different ranked-choice algorithm that places emphasis on the order of preference and allows two or more options to be given the same rank. That is to say you could have a ranking like this:

1. 219C
1. LH351D
2. XP-L HI
3. XP-G2
3. XP-G3

If you’re the last vote, here are some possible conditions before your vote is counted, and the result:

  • LH351D is tied with XP-L HI, XP-G2 or XP-G3: LH351D wins
  • LH351D is tied with 219C: tie is not broken
  • XP-L HI is tied with XP-G2 or XP-G3: XP-L HI wins

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Tom Tom
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jon_slider is a useful jester who has stimulated some insight into how TK’s poll might work.

Once it goes live.

Meanwhile some food for thought:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kruithof_curve which matches my personal experience, and mine eyes. And explains why good CRI is important.

That’s why I will be voting for 4000K high CRI efficient Samsung LEDs, hopefully the exact version, and choice of optic, (I look to Djozz for advice since I have no experience here) will make a great all-round EDC.

This will never be a blaster or thrower, please make it well rounded (I don’t mean the horrid tapers Sad ) and actually useful. I’ve already got enough things that do the other work.

Edit: And I am bored with Cree and Nichia stuff, I’ve got plenty of these and would like to see something different.

Edit2: Sorry Fritz, it still looks chubby to me, far from your svelte original. As for the bead blast Facepalm

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fritz15 wrote:
Hi all,

here are some quick pictures of the second FW3A prototype!


Some small remarks.

I would machine a small optical groove between the smooth bezel and the first knurling to give it the same look as the transition from the knurling to the battery tube.

Maybe some minimal crenellations would look good and be functional when standing the light on the bezel.

fuzun
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I vote for the high cri 4000 K or 4500 K variant.

Tom Tom
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Geuzzz wrote:

Some small remarks.

I would machine a small optical groove between the smooth bezel and the first knurling to give it the same look as the transition from the knurling to the battery tube.

Maybe some minimal crenellations would look good and be functional when standing the light on the bezel.

There is precious little metal there, any cosmetic titivation would just add weakness. The only places where excess metal is available for sculpturing are … well you know my thoughts. Less is more.

Mstevens113
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I was hoping for the more raw hand made look that the original had way back in post 1. Without that we lose what makes this different from other mass machined lights. We seem to have forgotten the whole point of this.

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ActiveAl wrote:

I'd like one depending on the final price. Thank you for your good hard work!

 

Please make that TWO for me - especially at the $30.00 price point! I just realized that the proposed length of the FW3A 18650 flashlight is slightly less that the length of my current EDC 14500 flashlight. Therefore, I could use the same belt holster and have the same "low-profile" ease of carry. I really like this flashlight and want to get a spare up front. Thanks again! 

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Mostly off-topic, but just a quick note… Instant Runoff Voting (IRV) is kind of terrible for single-winner elections. In the form of Single Transferrable Vote (STV) it can work well for proportional representation in elections with many winners, but IRV, the single-winner version, is very chaotic and doesn’t behave well. It collects a rich set of preference data on each ballot, then intentionally ignores most of those preferences.

I generally try to stick to systems which satisfy the Condorcet criterion: If a candidate would win a 1-on-1 vote against every other candidate, they should win.

Tom Tom
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This is madness.

An attempt to impose some sort of “democracy” on the design of a torch ?

Then further noise about what a particular sort of democracy means, with algorithms ?

I’ve lead several over £20,000,000 projects as Engineering Manager and can assure you that “democracy” never came into it.

Whereas listening to the discipline experts, facilitating, summarising, then taking a view, making a decision and pulling the teams together works.

Surely there is someone in the team who can absorb our chatter, condense it, summarise, propose a few scenarios, review with the manufacturer if they are not on the team then make a decision and get on with it.

Otherwise it’s just a bunch of egos blowing hot air and achieving nothing. Slowly. Wasting opportunity, time to market, and potentially over-taken by superior products from wily and agile manufacturers.

I’d be exasperated if I was the manufacturer and had to deal with this nonsense.

Sorry if I sound grumpy, but I am.

severide
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Tom Tom wrote:
This is madness.

An attempt to impose some sort of “democracy” on the design of a torch ?

Then further noise about what a particular sort of democracy means, with algorithms ?

I’ve lead over £20,000,000 projects as Engineering Manager and can assure you that “democracy” never came into it.

Whereas listening to the discipline experts, facilitating, summarising, then taking a view, making a decision and pulling the teams together works.

Surely there is someone in the team who can absorb our chatter, condense it, summarise, propose a few scenarios, review with the manufacturer if they are not on the team then make a decision and get on with it.

Otherwise it’s just a bunch of egos blowing hot air and achieving nothing. Slowly. Wasting opportunity, time to market, and potentially over-taken by superior products from wily and agile manufacturers.

I’d be exasperated if I was the manufacturer and had to deal with this nonsense.

Sorry if I sound grumpy, but I am.

Don’t think it’s to be taken as seriously as a £20mil project. But that’s just me.

zak.wilson
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The choice of emitters for a 1xLi-ion FET triple doesn’t have a right answer. It has a number of wrong answers, but the LH351D, 219C, XP-L HI, XP-G2 and XP-G3 are not among them. All of the emitters proposed will satisfy the engineering criteria to make the FW3A a reasonable flashlight. There’s no reason, in theory they couldn’t offer all of these emitters as options. The Emisar D4 offers three of them.

So all that’s left is personal preferences. Since a bunch of people are eager to buy it, why shouldn’t their preferences be taken into account? A poll will only take a week or so to run and is unlikely to hold up the project significantly given the general slow pace of things.

Finally, nobody is likely to steal the idea and beat Lumintop to market at the target price point. There’s not a lot of room for profit there. Most of the flashlight companies tend to screw something up without someone from the community holding their hand anyway.

Ceilingbounce – flashlight testing and runtime graphs for Android

teacher
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fritz15 wrote:
Hi all,

here are some quick pictures of the second FW3A prototype!

Generally, I feel like the build quality is really great. I also like the beam a lot although there are now XP-G3s in use.
I’ll provide a little more feedback within the next few days since I’m in the middle of moving to another apartment.

I hope you still like the light although it differs partly from the initial design.

Yes sir Fritz!! It is your design & I still like it as well or better than the original. Thumbs Up

Thank you for the pictures as well as your design….. Beer
.
.

ToyKeeper wrote:

(snip)
I generally try to stick to systems which satisfy the Condorcet criterion: If a candidate would win a 1-on-1 vote against every other candidate, they should win.
I like that…. a win is a win.
.
.

Tom Tom wrote:
This is madness.

(snip, snip [interesting stuff that can be read in quoted post above] snip, snip)

…… it’s just a bunch of egos blowing hot air and achieving nothing. Slowly. Wasting opportunity, time to market, and potentially over-taken by superior products from wily and agile manufacturers.

I’d be exasperated if I was the manufacturer and had to deal with this nonsense.

Sorry if I sound grumpy, but I am.

Very interesting comments indeed. No need for an apology either…. you just seem to be getting your two cent’s worth & preferences in like everyone else.

I think you covered us all quite well when you mentioned “…… it’s just a bunch of egos blowing hot air…..” Thumbs Up

I really like that… you hit the nail on the head! Big Smile . Beer

      You never know how a horse will pull until you hook him up to a heavy load. / Paul "Bear" Bryant ~/~\~ "Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast"

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toddcshoe
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New prototype looks perfect. Hope it ships exactly like that. I won’t get involved in Emitter/Tint/CRI Madness. If emitter choice is too awful for me to bear, I can swap it out myself for minimal time and money.

Keep up the great work ya’ll.

Lion42
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I am the list for one please add two (2) for a total of three (3). Thank you.

will34
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Prototype looks amazing. As for the emitter choice I think this light doesn’t need to compete with DD triples in terms of output. I rarely use my nichia D4 because it gets extremely hot too fast and then drops to an absurdly low level and takes a couple minutes to level up to a decent level, and because there are no preset levels or hidden turbo its practicality is very poor.

Tom Tom
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severide wrote:

Don’t think it’s to be taken as seriously as a £20mil project. But that’s just me.

Business is business, the same rules apply. When something like this carries on interminably, either write it off as R+D (which you can add to your books as an asset, like “goodwill” but better, even set it off against tax), or keep it going as some sort of marketing research that might become worthwhile sometime. It’s not as if you are having to pay for the voluntary engineering and design work, though keeping the knowledge.

If you can make and sell some, all the better, makes it more legitimate. Even at a loss (deductible).

At least that’s how it works in the West.

If we consumers get something from this, that’s a bonus.

I hope we do, it is still very interesting to me, possibly the best EDC I’ve seen.

Cynically yours, Tom Tom.

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Proto2 showed up today. Fritz already posted some pictures, but I’ve been doing some tests and measurements.

Several things were fixed compared to proto1:

  • Tail end of the body tube is now tapered too, which is nice.
  • Tail updated to Fritz’ latest design.
  • Tail parts are no longer glued.
  • The clip ring no longer sticks out wider than the body.
  • The clip is straighter. (my first prototype was bent in as if someone squeezed it too hard)
  • Driver has raptor claw 7135 chips, not failboat chips. Smile
  • The LEDs come on at level 1/150 now, at 0.2 lm. Output and clock speed are stable, and it has no missing levels.
  • Uses 10511 optic instead of 10507. This makes the beam pattern smoother, even with XP-G3.
  • Has springs on both ends of the battery now.
  • No longer reboots at the slightest bump; the springs are stronger.
  • Ano color is consistent between parts now.
  • Inner tube has thicker anodizing, and is now black.
  • Comes with the latest firmware, so a bunch of bugs were fixed and features were added.

There are still a few things left to do though, like finalizing the surface finish, deciding on the emitter type(s), improving isolation of the inner tube, and adding some finishing touches like extra O-rings and hopefully an optional traffic wand diffuser cone.

Oh, and it seems the light is 92.5 mm long, not 94.8 mm. It’s quite small.

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will34 wrote:
I think this light doesn’t need to compete with DD triples in terms of output. I rarely use my nichia D4 because it gets extremely hot too fast and then drops to an absurdly low level and takes a couple minutes to level up to a decent level, and because there are no preset levels or hidden turbo its practicality is very poor.

You might be happy to hear that this has a few differences from the D4:

  • Regulated output up to about 1100 lm
  • There is a good chance the emitters won’t run as hot as the D4-219
  • Thermal regulation is smoother, less prone to oscillating, more configurable, and has a higher floor
  • The ramp ceiling can be set lower than turbo, and by default is set to the highest regulated level
  • Preset levels are available too, and are configurable to whatever you like. The default is about 10 lm to 1100 lm, in 7 steps.
  • Other practical improvements have been added, like faster access to lockout, and momentary moon during lockout. Direct access to the ceiling level from off. Predictable ramping direction without having to remember anything. Plus a bunch of extra modes and extras.
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Thank you for the info TK, it is sounding good. Thumbs Up

      You never know how a horse will pull until you hook him up to a heavy load. / Paul "Bear" Bryant ~/~\~ "Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast"

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