Wavien collars are SOLD OUT [limited production]

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Enderman
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Tom Tom wrote:

I think what Wavien describe in their recent patent may even be a CPC.


I see what you were talking about now, this image with the “rotated parabolic reflector”

“The parabolic reflecting collar is made by rotating the parabolic curve around the axis which goes through the focus and is parallel to the directrix. The resulting reflector is round with a parabolic surface. Light emitted from the LED placed at the focus is reflected from one side of the parabolic surface, becomes a parallel beam, incidence onto the opposite parabolic surface, and refocused back to the LED itself. One major difference between this parabolic recycling collar and the spherical recycling collar as shown in FIG. 1 is that the light emitted from a point at and near the focus will be reflected by the parabolic reflector twice and back to the same point where the light is emitted. With this property, with used with packages with multiple LEDs and multiple colors, each LED will be able to perform recycling of its own light independently and each LED with its own color will be able to improve the brightness independent of the other LEDs and colors.
[0009]
The parabolic reflecting collar is positioned such that higher angle light rays are reflected twice, off opposing wall reflecting portions, back to their point of origin. Preferably the light source is an array of multiple LEDs having different colors and sizes.”


So the thing is that it doesn’t actually work.
The lines are not reflected back to the point of origin as descibred in the patent.
Would be cool if it did, but nope.
It would need to be a different shape than a parabola, and then it would still only work from light rays originating from the center, not any point on an LED.

Enderman
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This is what the double-parabolic method is, one forward facing and one rear facing parabola will return the light rays to their origin:

Basically what the wavien collar does but far more complicated to set up and less effective because it has to reflect 3 times.

The_Driver
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contactcr wrote:
The_Driver wrote:
contactcr wrote:
Collar arrived, nothing to use it on yet though.

!{width:75%}https://i.imgur.com/Hwf6dhr.jpg!

Can you measure the thickness for us?

I posted some measurements. Here is my excellent drawing. I assume what you are asking for is the bottom thickness that I have as 3.63mm

The lip on the top Enderman was referring to is prob ~2mm. I dont have an easy way to get my calipers in there and I dont want to scratch it.

I meant the height of the entire collar. Sorry for not being clear enough.

contactcr
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The_Driver wrote:
I meant the height of the entire collar. Sorry for not being clear enough.

11.48mm

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contactcr wrote:
The_Driver wrote:
I meant the height of the entire collar. Sorry for not being clear enough.

11.48mm

Thank you!

Tom Tom
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Enderman wrote:
So the thing is that it doesn’t actually work. The lines are not reflected back to the point of origin as descibred in the patent. Would be cool if it did, but nope. It would need to be a different shape than a parabola, and then it would still only work from light rays originating from the center, not any point on an LED. !{width:100%}https://i.imgur.com/n6a2bSZ.png!

Agreed, hence my skepticism about that particular patent, I don’t see how much light recycling can be achieved with this arrangement, nevermind precisely bouncing it back to individual different coloured LEDs in a multiple array.

But perhaps there is also some secret technique not revealed in the patent itself, which wouldn’t be unusual.

It would be nice if you could show us a ray-trace for the spherical collar, it might help those who have ordered this one and demonstrate your point even more clearly. If you could simulate the light source being a small LED in the middle of the reflector (Lambertian), even better.

PS: I tracked down DrJone’s paper that I remembered, at http://budgetlightforum.com/node/15818

It’s from 2013

(Edit: 2012)

so I daresay there have been plenty of developments since, particularly in phosphor design, domes, and the latest back-illuminated LEDs, but still gives plenty of insight today.

I’m still skeptical about light recycling in general, particularly in modern LEDs where I hope a high proportion of the LED light is absorbed in the phosphor with little wasted, but agree that the collar is still a clever way of scooping up more of the off-axis light and re-directing it in the desired direction.

I’ll be watching this thread with interest, having no experience myself.

djozz
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I have questions about light recycling as well:

-does it work in warm leds just as well or for best results use cool leds? Cool leds have a high remaining blue peak so lots of options for recycling, but warmer leds will convert recycled light more efficient in new fluorescent light. Perhaps there is an optimum colour temperature?

-Is a rough die surface (i.e. a dedomed led) better than a shiny surface? (i.e. HI versions of Cree leds)

-are modern phosfors that are rougher and give better spectrum less suitable for luminance increase by light recycling than the good old ugly Cree phosfors

FWIW, a sliced and sanded high CRI 4000K Samsung LG351D did warm up from 4000K to 3500K with a tint shift from slightly green to yellow-rosy, and a considerable throw increase, a clear sign that light recycling does happen in modern, warm tinted leds.

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Enderman wrote:
Thank you to everyone that showed interest in the collars enough to make this possible <3
I also said thanks to my Marinebeam contact on behalf of us at BLF, here’s their reply:

“My pleasure. I appreciate your help with the communication. I have been trying for more than a year to make something happen, and while they were very supportive, they didn’t quite have a direction on this ironed out, and they surely had much more critical irons in the fire. They are really just regular guys, not so unlike us, that have mortgaged good jobs and their futures to buy these patents. I spent a lot of time at Wavien also, and they too were good, hardworking, and exceptionally gifted people trying their best to get this technology out there.

Contrary to popular opinion, we won’t make some small fortune on this deal. I wish these collars were some trinket with massive volumes that we could sell for a dollar a piece and make everyone happy. When I factor in the tooling, yield fallout, scrap, license fee, and royalties, it is modest deal for us at best. I am happy to share some of the spoils with Meadowstar too. If they can be successful, it is best for all of us.

I did this BLF deal mainly to get some out there in the hands of some creative hobbyists. Because we deal in so many different products, it is hard for me to spend the available time 100% on flashlights, so a group of keen tinkerers trying different hosts, drivers, and emitters can cover much more ground than we can and push the envelope, further validating the concept. We are all on the same team trying to make cool long-throw LED flashlights. Should someone figure a clever concept for making low-cost collars, that is good too. Same with any host that gets well-enough developed that it is easy to drop in a collar. We can have the host produced (or re-produced using the basic concept), drop in a collar at Marinebeam, and sell to the public. We could even have a BLF version and pricing for BLF members.

Have a great weekend, and let me know of any interesting successes.”

Now that sounds very interesting!!!

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djozz wrote:
-does it work in warm leds just as well or for best results use cool leds? Cool leds have a high remaining blue peak so lots of options for recycling, but warmer leds will convert recycled light more efficient in new fluorescent light. Perhaps there is an optimum colour temperature?

Firstly these are just my theories, feel free to tear them apart.

As I understand it the warm LEDs use a thicker, or more dense phosphor, which whilst absorbing more blue from the LED, attenuates it more in the thicker phosphor hence generally lower output.

So I would expect the cooler ones to benefit more from e.g. recycling from the collar, less attenuation of the blue from the less dense phosphor, then the returned light hits the front surface which is a more efficient place for it to be. I’d expect the overall tint to end up warmer, but if you just want the cooler brighter output I don’t see the blue light as being wasted, without recycling.

djozz wrote:

-Is a rough die surface (i.e. a dedomed led) better than a shiny surface? (i.e. HI versions of Cree leds)

-are modern phosfors that are rougher and give better spectrum less suitable for luminance increase by light recycling than the good old ugly Cree phosfors

I think the shiny surface of the HIs may be a protective encapsulant for the phosphor surface and the bondwires. It wouldn’t be practical to sell a raw LED with exposed bond wire (handling damage). Hence the flat designs now available.

If of suitable refractive index, even though flat, it may also provide a matching function (refractive index) between the phosphor and air interfaces, much as the dome does. Which I think would reduce internal light recycling, but improve it from e.g. an external collar, encouraging the blue to escape or return.

Perhaps the phosphor underneath is already rough, which I think may be better.

Though I think an engineered textured surface could be best, and we are seeing this sort of thing nowadays.

I’ve thought about trying a silicone conformal coating on de-domed emitters to see what difference it makes, such as https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/conformal-coatings/0494714/

But phosphors are already a suspension of the compounds in a silicone base, so maybe no point except for protection.

I think someone used to sell something similar called LED seal, at higher price.

I like to use conformal coat on circuit boards anyway (trained this way), though I prefer strippable acrylic based versions for that, when the temperature rating and inertness of silicone is not necessary..

djozz wrote:
FWIW, a sliced and sanded high CRI 4000K Samsung LG351D did warm up from 4000K to 3500K with a tint shift from slightly green to yellow-rosy, and a considerable throw increase, a clear sign that light recycling does happen in modern, warm tinted leds.

That makes sense, and confirms DrJones ideas.

Enderman
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Tom Tom wrote:

Agreed, hence my skepticism about that particular patent, I don’t see how much light recycling can be achieved with this arrangement, nevermind precisely bouncing it back to individual different coloured LEDs in a multiple array.

But perhaps there is also some secret technique not revealed in the patent itself, which wouldn’t be unusual.

It would be nice if you could show us a ray-trace for the spherical collar, it might help those who have ordered this one and demonstrate your point even more clearly. If you could simulate the light source being a small LED in the middle of the reflector (Lambertian), even better..


I think it is possible using a different shaped surface, but clearly a parabola does not work.
A different shaped surface may not work well for anything that is not in the center of the LED too, which would make it useless.
I don’t know if I can modify this ray tracing program to have custom shaped surfaces, but that would be one way to test and figure it out.

Here is a spherical surface reflecting all the rays back at the LED:

Obviously in the real world the rays don’t go through the LED, they hit it and scatter, and also add energy to the phosphor.

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Man, just maxed out my PP to come and find this…

dmsoule
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Enderman, you may want to edit the title of this thread to indicate that these are sold out, unfortunately.

Question for Enderman or anybody: how do you affix this to the flashlight body? I watched Marinebeam’s YouTube video about proper alignment of the collar, but once you figure that out, how does one keep it fixed in place?

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dmsoule wrote:
Enderman, you may want to edit the title of this thread to indicate that these are sold out, unfortunately.

Question for Enderman or anybody: how do you affix this to the flashlight body? I watched Marinebeam’s YouTube video about proper alignment of the collar, but once you figure that out, how does one keep it fixed in place?


Hot glue
You want to fixate it with something slightly flexible.
Tom Tom
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dmsoule wrote:
I watched Marinebeam’s YouTube video about proper alignment of the collar …

Thanks for that tip. I found that video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXAz-TvPDVA and it is very interesting, a clear explanation of how it works.

I note that Marinebeam used the term “light recycling” in the sense of simply bouncing around the stray light back onto the LED, which is the way I was thinking of it.

Quite how much “light recycling” is occurring due to re-use of the blue portion by re-stimulating the phosphor and actually adding to the effect, I wonder. Surely it can only be a second-order effect, not the main reason for the collar ?

The phosphor cannot be re-energised by the light wavelengths that it originally emitted, only by the minority shorter wavelength blue light. That’s how phosphors work, converting shorter wavelengths to longer.

I suggest that the majority of the recycling effect is simply by scattering from the surface of the phosphor, where it’s reflectance and colour (i.e. yellowish) are the important factor.

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Tom Tom wrote:
dmsoule wrote:
I watched Marinebeam’s YouTube video about proper alignment of the collar …

Thanks for that tip. I found that video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXAz-TvPDVA and it is very interesting, a clear explanation of how it works.

I note that Marinebeam used the term “light recycling” in the sense of simply bouncing around the stray light back onto the LED, which is the way I was thinking of it.

Quite how much “light recycling” is occurring due to re-use of the blue portion by re-stimulating the phosphor actually adds to the effect, I wonder. Surely it can only be a second-order effect, not the main reason for the collar ?

The phosphor cannot be re-energised by the light wavelengths that it originally emitted, only by the minority shorter wavelength blue light. That’s how phosphors work, converting shorter wavelengths to longer.

I suggest that the majority of the recycling effect is simply by scattering from the surface of the phosphor, where it’s reflectance and colour (i.e. yellowish) are the important factor.

Nope, it’s the blue light which makes up a substantial part of the spectrum of cool-white LEDs.
When light is converted in such phosphor it’s isotropically scattered. This makes the LED brighter from all angles.

The converted part of the spectrum becomes more pronounced (there is not additional blue light coming from the phosphor when you add the collar).

The Osram Black Flat basically has a polished silicone surface. If the collar were to work just by reflection and scattering it wouldn’t work very well the Black flat. It would be much worse compared to dedomed Cree LEDs which have a rough phosphor surface.

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The_Driver wrote:
Nope, it’s the blue light which makes up a substantial part of the spectrum of cool-white LEDs. When light is converted in such phosphor it’s isotropically scattered. This means the converted part of the spectrum becomes more pronounced (there is not additional blue light coming from the phosphor when you add the collar).

Ok, for cool white there will be a greater re-stimulation than warmer tints. But as Marinebeam showed, the majority of the work of the collar is to direct the light through the hole, at the condenser (aspheric), without any being “wasted” simply heating up the inside of the head of the torch. As in a standard zoomie.

I see the collar as mainly performing a pre-collimation function, whilst scooping up stray light from a Lambertian emitter (120 degree cosine function) and recycling it until it can escape in the desired direction.

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The_Driver wrote:

The Osram Black Flat basically has a polished silicone surface. If the collar were to work just by reflection and scattering it wouldn’t work very well the Black flat. It would be much worse compared to dedomed Cree LEDs which have a rough phosphor surface.

I’m not talking about reflection from a transparent silicone surface, that would be silly, but scattering from the (maybe rough or textured) phosphor lying beneath.

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Consider, on a standard zoomie you could fix a plain circular aperture in the same place as the hole in the collar and it would have no effect on the output. It is the circular reflecting interior of the collar that “recycles” the off-axis light that makes it so clever.

As a bonus there is the re-stimulation effect, which I’m sure happens, but to what extent I’m not sure.

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Also consider, another reason why warmer tints are less bright than cooler is because the conversion in the phosphor has an efficiency loss. An LED with no phosphor at-all would be blue, and highly efficient, but of little use to us.

The more you “recycle” (or as I think of it re-stimulate the phosphor) with the escaping blue light, the less efficient the overall process becomes, in the limit if the blue component was totally recycled by re-stimulation, then all you’d have left would be the warm emission from the phosphor. So you might as well just have used a well designed warm LED in the first place.

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And as Marinebeam elegantly explained, in a standard reflector based torch the on-axis light that doesn’t hit the reflector turns into spill, whereas the hotspot is created by the off-axis light that does hit the reflector.

Meaning if you want a thrower that is practical (with some spill) you might be better looking at extreme reflector designs.

Edit: the deeper the parabolic reflector, the better.

If you want to focus an image of the die with zero spill (wasted ? light), then an aspheric with a collar is the way to go.

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Tom Tom wrote:
Also consider, another reason why warmer tints are less bright than cooler is because the conversion in the phosphor has an efficiency loss. An LED with no phosphor at-all would be blue, and highly efficient, but of little use to us.

The more you “recycle” (or as I think of it re-stimulate the phosphor) with the escaping blue light, the less efficient the overall process becomes, in the limit if the blue component was totally recycled by re-stimulation, then all you’d have left would be the warm emission from the phosphor. So you might as well just have used a well designed warm LED in the first place.

Only the blue light that the LED emits to the side, is actually used by the collar to increase the converted part going forward in a meaningful way.

The Marinebeam guy is not the first guy I would go to to get real information regarding this… The light he offers doesn’t need the collar to get it’s performance. Adding the collar makes that light way more expensive than it should be.

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The_Driver wrote:
Only the blue light that the LED emits to the side, is actually used by the collar to increase the converted part going forward.

Of course. But all of the other light from the phosphor that goes sideways is also “recycled” by simple scattering from the surface of the phosphor. No re-stimulation possible for this.

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Tom Tom wrote:
The_Driver wrote:
Only the blue light that the LED emits to the side, is actually used by the collar to increase the converted part going forward.

Of course. But all of the other light from the phosphor that goes sideways is also “recycled” by simple scattering from the surface of the phosphor. No re-stimulation possible for this.

Which is super inefficient! Most of it will be absorbed and some scattered back into the reflector and then back into the LED… I find it hard to believe that this has a meaningful impact.

You will probably get higher performance by using a collar which only reflects blue light and absorbs the rest of the spectrum. This would keep the phosphor cooler and you might reflect 3-4% more of the blue part.

You could try proving your point by using the collar with a very warm (<3000K) led. I predict a very small gain.

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The_Driver wrote:

You will probably get higher performance by using a collar which only reflects blue light and absorbs the rest of the spectrum. This would keep the phosphor cooler and youight reflect 3-4% more of the blue part.

You could try proving your point by using the collar with a very warm (

So let someone make a glass collar with a dichroic mirror coating tuned to the LED blue spectrum, then we might see Wink

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Thats what mem (he claims to be the inventor the collar) was doing before he disappeared from the forum. He developed a collar v2.0 :D.

I will add some links to this post…

Here men talks about the RGB-ratio of the collars mirror coating and the tint bin of the LED having an effect on the final performance-gain of the collar.

More talk: http://budgetlightforum.com/comment/851807#comment-851807

Here it gets interesting. He talks about boosting the XP-G2 to a luminance that would equate to 2900 lumens if it were this intense without the collar. The actual maximum of the XP-G2 S4 2B (the good old one) is 6A and 1120lm (see koef3s test ). This means that mems “v2.0” collar achieves up to ~160% gain. Thats about 30% more than the Wavien collar (120% gain). I find that believeable.

Here he mentions that collars made out of stainless steel don’t work very well because this material only reflects around 30% of blue wavelengths.

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The_Driver wrote:
Thats what mem (he claims to be the inventor the collar) was doing before he disappeared from the forum. He developed a collar v2.0 :D.

I will add some links to this post…

So he said, but he burned off a few people, who sent money, with his claims (Dale for one) and never delivered.

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Tom Tom wrote:
The_Driver wrote:
Thats what mem (he claims to be the inventor the collar) was doing before he disappeared from the forum. He developed a collar v2.0 :D.

I will add some links to this post…

So he said, but he burned off a few people, who sent money, with his claims (Dale for one) and never delivered.

That doesn’t mean they don’t work though. Everything I have read from him makes a lot of sense.

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Either the collar works primarily by re-cycling the blue using re-stimulation, or mostly by bouncing around all the spectrum and scattering it back.

To make a x2 gain just from the blue (what proportion of it is present in the original LED+ phosphor output ?) surprises me, but I can be convinced, by facts and data.

50 of you have bought them, so hopefully we’ll hear some results.

Isn’t BLF great ?

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Tom Tom wrote:
Either the collar works primarily by re-cycling the blue using re-stimulation, or mostly by bouncing around all the spectrum and scattering it back.

To make a x2 gain just from the blue (what proportion of it is present in the original LED+ phosphor output ?) surprises me, but I can be convinced, by facts and data.

50 of you have bought them, so hopefully we’ll hear some results.

Isn’t BLF great ?

The collar has the same effect that a blue laser has when shined onto phosphor. A blue laser also makes the tint more yellow/green.

These pics both show an Osram Black Flat. It is running at the same current in both pics. In the pic where it’s brighter, a high-powered blue laser is being shined at it. You can see that the tint of the LED becomes much greener.

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Now we are back into remote laser-phosphor technology, which works splendidly. With suitable phosphors.

Edit: not just shining a laser at an LED, but with designed remote phosphor pieces (not LEDs). And optics (mainly reflectors) to maximise the output.

Coming to a car to you soon (maybe not in the USA, the regulators are very conservative). But has been lighting up the roads in premium EU cars for a few years now. At a price.

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