What is the best high capacity 18650 battery?

[JasonWW]

@WalkIntoTheLight

@The_Driver

In cold temps only around 30% of the energy in a GA or other high-capacity cell is useable. High-drain cells like the 30Q still give you around 80%.

See here.

I use my lights more in the winter than in the summer…

I don’t buy it. I used my Zebralight SC600w MkIV HI plenty this past winter in the cold. Usually around –10C. I used the Sanyo GA, Samsung 30Q, and Sony VTC6 in it. I didn’t notice any difference in run time. Granted, I didn’t test it, but I’d certainly notice a difference between 30% and 80%!

I suspect it’s only an issue if the battery is kept constantly cold, even during operation. Since the battery warms up while I’m using the light, the usable energy isn’t that different between different battery brands. It’s interesting information, but I’m not sure how useful it is in real-world use.

@JasonWW

No, your misunderstanding.

FET drivers do not tend to make extra capacity less useful. I don’t know where you got this idea from.

Yes, they do, because by the time the battery is 30% or 40% drained, I need to recharge it because the output on the light has dropped so much. FET drivers are great on a full battery, but they suck as the battery discharges.

With a boost-driver, I can use 100% of the capacity, because it regulates output regardless of the voltage level.

Again, I see errors.

The GA cell is rated for 10A continous, but it can actually do more than that. It can pull 15A, but not continously as it gets too hot. The way a boost driver works has a lot to do with feeding it amperage at a high voltage. Voltage losses in the springs, etc… can cause the boost driver to not maintain turbo for very long. The higher you can keep the voltage (while under load), the longer it will run at turbo (excluding heat related step downs).

Then it’s not a very good boost driver. I’m not sure where you’re going with that. On my Zebralights, they can deliver max output until the battery voltage drops to 2.9v. At that point, the battery is almost completely drained.

Even if a boost drivers max battery draw is only 8A, the extra voltage sag is what can really hurt it. It reduces it’s ability to run at turbo for long periods. If you needed to run it at turbo a lot (like I need to), you would want the higher drain 30Q battery. Since you run it at only 700 lumen, you don’t notice this reduced turbo run time.

It will work just fine at full output. Yes, there’s an additional 0.1v of voltage sag, but the boost driver compensates. The extra capacity of the GA cell makes up for it. It’s watt-hours of energy that matters with a boost driver, not amp-hours or voltage under load.

I personally would rather run the Zebra Plus with a 30Q because turbo times are more important to me than maximum low level run times plus I don’t like running the voltage down too far. So it all depends on how you use the light and your needs.

Again, it doesn’t matter. The boost driver will work at any cell voltage more than 2.9v. At a 5A load, the GA cell has 11Wh of energy (as seen in HKJ’s written review), compared to 10Wh for the 30Q.

At 6-8 amps, the difference may be smaller, so I suspect there’s not much of an advantage to the GA cell if I were to run it on turbo constantly. But, I don’t do that (it would overheat unless it’s cold outside), so the extra energy in the GA cell does make a difference.

Your Zebra Plus is not single emitter. It’s a quad die.

:nerd_face: That’s being a little pedantic. I think you know what I meant when I said it’s a single emitter. I can only think of the XHP70.2 (which I’ll call a single emitter) which may require more than 10 amps of current from an 18650, but you’d have to be over-driving it I think (or pretty close). But, yeah, if I had a 1x18650 light with an XHP70.2 emitter, I’d probably use a high-drain cell.

@WalkIntoTheLight

Edit: Looking at the graphs, at 5 amps the 30Q has 10Wh of energy, and the GA has 11Wh. I think the GA wins, except perhaps when you use it at really high drains. Though, the GA sags about 0.1v more than the 30Q, so a FET driver would like the 30Q more (but with less run time).

I’m not sure where you are getting the 10 and 11 Wh from. Can you explain?

It’s in his written reviews. Unfortunately, he only measures the total energy at drain levels up to 5A. But that’s probably a reasonable drain level for most 1000-1500 lumen lights.

The FET and the Boost both prefer the high drain battery. Both driver designs will deliver the same amount of light on the same battery, it’s just the way they deliver that light that changes.

The FET driver is great when the battery voltage is 4.2v. It sucks by the time the resting voltage drops to around 3.8v. The boost driver doesn’t care; it just runs at constant output.

With a FET driver you don’t get steps, per se. When you remove the thermal related stuff, you get a steady sloping downward curve as voltage drops. The FET starts at a higher output, that’s it’s advantage. The Boost driver starts at a lower max level, but it’s a steady output. That’s it’s advantage.

No, that’s not how a boost driver works. It can start and continue at any output the driver is designed for, regardless of the battery’s input voltage. It can do better than a FET driver even on a fresh battery, if it’s designed to provide higher current to the LED.

Well, I tried to explain it the best I could. That’s all I can do.

[The_Driver1 (The_Driver)]

@WalkIntoTheLight

@The_Driver

In cold temps only around 30% of the energy in a GA or other high-capacity cell is useable. High-drain cells like the 30Q still give you around 80%.

See here.

I use my lights more in the winter than in the summer…

I don’t buy it. I used my Zebralight SC600w MkIV HI plenty this past winter in the cold. Usually around –10C. I used the Sanyo GA, Samsung 30Q, and Sony VTC6 in it. I didn’t notice any difference in run time. Granted, I didn’t test it, but I’d certainly notice a difference between 30% and 80%!

I suspect it’s only an issue if the battery is kept constantly cold, even during operation. Since the battery warms up while I’m using the light, the usable energy isn’t that different between different battery brands. It’s interesting information, but I’m not sure how useful it is in real-world use.

There is nothing to buy. The test data is right there. You can compare it to the data from HKJ.
I guess you only use your light in the high-modes and/or keep it warm with body heat. If you put the light outside for a few hours in the winter and then turn it on in the medium modes (lets say you only want 200 lumens) you will notice a difference if you actually use your light for a few hours.

Many people also have this problem with their smartphones when they go running for example and it’s really cold outside.

[WalkIntoTheLight]

@The_Driver

@WalkIntoTheLight

I suspect it’s only an issue if the battery is kept constantly cold, even during operation. Since the battery warms up while I’m using the light, the usable energy isn’t that different between different battery brands. It’s interesting information, but I’m not sure how useful it is in real-world use.

There is nothing to buy. The test data is right there. You can compare it to the data from HKJ.
I guess you only use your light in the high-modes and/or keep it warm with body heat. If you put the light outside for a few hours in the winter and then turn it on in the medium modes (lets say you only want 200 lumens) you will notice a difference if you actually use your light for a few hours.

Many people also have this problem with their smartphones when they go running for example and it’s really cold outside.

Yes, I’m not doubting the information that lithium-ion energy goes way down in the cold. It’s the “Samsung 30Q only goes down 30, while Sanyo GA goes down 80” that doesn’t sound right, at least in real-world use.

I notice in the testing, that they deliberately keep the batteries chilled to –8 degrees while performing the test, and run the batteries at very high current (7 amps). I think that is the problem with their test.

1. Batteries will naturally warm up during use (especially at high currents), and

2. 7 amps is probably beyond what the GA cell can do in extreme cold, while the high-drain 30Q still performs okay because it is high drain.

If this test was done at lower currents (say the 200 lumen test you propose), I suspect the results would be very similar between the 30Q and the GA batteries, because the GA battery would be operating well within its specs.

I’ll try the 200-lumen real-world test next winter. The only issue is that it takes about 12 hours (at room temperature) for the Zebralight to drain a cell at that output. But, I suspect I can do the testing in under 6 hours, due to the cold.

[teacher]

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[TheIntruder]

@WalkIntoTheLight

@TheIntruder

Tesla has added a pre-heating function to their battery packs to preserve capacity in cold climes.

The cars are quite popular in Norway, so whatever performance degradation that still exists isn’t a strong deterrent to their adoption.

Do you have to wait until they heat up, before driving?

It works in tandem with the cabin pre-heating feature, and can be activated with the app prior to departure. These newfangled cars!

Suffice it to say, the engineers aren’t oblivious to cold conditions.

A lot can also be said about the company, and how it operates, etc., but Tesla’s battery engineering is first-rate and it is considered a leader. That might change when the other OEMs come online and demonstrate their prowess, but I suspect it will still be competitive at least, with the head start it has gained in battery and charging infrastructure.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming…

[WalkIntoTheLight]

@TheIntruder

A lot can also be said about the company, and how it operates, etc., but Tesla’s battery engineering is first-rate and it is considered a leader. That might change when the other OEMs come online and demonstrate their prowess, but I suspect it will still be competitive at least, with the head start it has gained in battery and charging infrastructure.

I like Tesla, but I don’t think they’re going to survive once other “real” car manufacturers catch up. Musk hasn’t met a production target on the new model yet. He’s not going to be able to compete against other companies that can pump out millions of cars, when he can pump out only thousands.

I’d like to see other companies purchase Tesla’s battery tech.

[aginthelaw]

i actually like the lg for some reason. it’s the one i have the most of, recommended to me the most. and failed the least. that being said, i vote for the vt6a!

[SKV89]

@mrheosuper

@Enderman

@FlashTom

How about the LG INR18650-M36 3600mAh - 10A?

As I said before, the manufacturer ratings on the cells are BS and don’t represent real world performance and usable currents like in a flashlight. Always look at reliable test data from people like HKJ

https://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/LG%2018650%20M36%203600mAh%20(Cyan)%20UK.html

i disagree with you
the rating is not BS, it’s all true, all their figures is true and measured, it’s not BS like ultrafire 9800mah
“don’t represent real world performance ”, just to remind you that real world doesn’t only have flashlight, there are other low power devices that run on 18650 cell, even some flashlights have very low discharging current, not all flashlight need more than 1A

In general Sanyo/Panasonic, Sony, Samsung, LG ratings are closer to spec but often times they are overrated and do not reflect real world usage scenarios, therefore it is in a way BS. It’s the same as the lights from reputable brands such as Acebeam, Olight, Fenix, etc. measure 0-15% less than their specified output.

That’s why we need HKJ and Mooch tests to know how batteries perform in the real world. Also user tests are helpful too to confirm manufacturer’s ratings. Many batteries tested on my Xtar VP4 Dragon Plus reveal less than advertised capacities, with some exceptions like the Sony VTC6 that measures practically spot on or a bit higher than rating and Shockli 26650s that measure a good margin higher than the specified rating.

With that said, I’m wondering if anyone done any testing or have any experience on the Samsung 36G 18650 3600mah battery, which is on sale today for $4.99 at 18650batterystore.com ? I couldn’t find any reviews of it online.

[BlueSwordM]

I wouldn’t get it. All 3600mAh cells do achieve their ratings. However, since their internal resistance is higher than 3500mAh cells, they have less real world capacity than their lower capacity counterparts.

TLDR: Just get Samsung 30Qs for everything.

[SKV89]

@BlueSwordM

I wouldn’t get it. All 3600mAh cells do achieve their ratings. However, since their internal resistance is higher than 3500mAh cells, they have less real world capacity than their lower capacity counterparts.

TLDR: Just get Samsung 30Qs for everything.

I have a bunch of 3500mah GAs and VTC6 already that have higher capacity than the 30Qs and VTC6 performs better too. But I want the highest capacity for my ROT66 with the 219B because I’m planning to use it as a work lamp to make use of that gorgeous tint.

[JasonWW]

@SKV89

I have a bunch of 3500mah GAs and VTC6 already that have higher capacity than the 30Qs and VTC6 performs better too. But I want the highest capacity for my ROT66 with the 219B because I’m planning to use it as a work lamp to make use of that gorgeous tint.

It does depend on how your going to use your ROT66. Most folks are wanting high output and not going to let the batteries run down below 3.6v or 3.7v so a high drain like the 30Q makes more sense.

In your case, you seem to be willing to sacrifice some of the high output in exchange for more run time at lower levels all the way down to lvp.

So in your case, the high capacity cells do make sense.

The cells you currently have should be fine. You won’t see a difference between 3500mah and 3600mah. The 36G may end up exactly the same as the GA.

Should you buy an untested cell like the 36G? Maybe, it’s Samsung so it should be quality. You can be the guinea pig and tell us how good they are and their measured capacity. Lol

[Enderman]

The samsung 35E has the highest mAh of any current cell, and since their naming seems to be consistent I wouldn’t be surprised to see a “36” have slightly more capacity than the “35”
However I haven’t seen any tests of it or any places to buy some, where have you seen it?

[JasonWW]

@Enderman

However I haven’t seen any tests of it or any places to buy some, where have you seen it?

He linked to the store selling it.
Here

[Enderman]

@JasonWW

He linked to the store selling it.
Here

I can’t find any info directly from samsung though.
As long as it’s official I think it would probably be better than the 35E.
I would personally wait for an HKJ review.

[SKV89]

Im thinking the 36g is the 18650 version of the 48g. The 36g is rated at 10A continuous whereas the 35e is rated at 8A. The 36G is currently on sale in that link which is why I want to buy it. It’s cheaper than the NCR18650GA and on paper has a tiny bit more capacit

[SKV89]

@Enderman

@JasonWW

He linked to the store selling it.
Here

I can’t find any info directly from samsung though.
As long as it’s official I think it would probably be better than the 35E.
I would personally wait for an HKJ review.

There are alot of cells that HKJ skips. I think he only tests cells available in the UK. He haven’t even tested the VTC5D and that’s a pretty popular cell around here for the max lumen guys.

I ordered the 36G to test. Will test them and post back.

[ggf31416]

The 36g is listed as well on IMRBatteries and QueenBatteries (China) as a 10A battery. The LG M36, also rated as 10A, isn’t really worse than the Sanyo 18650GA on HKJ tests, just not better.

[moderator007]

Its all about the current draw. Depends a lot on what your referring to real world. To Dale its 15 or more amps. To a EDC person its 1 to 3 amps.
So which battery performs best depends on what current you subject it to. High drain less capacity, more current. Low drain high capacity, more capacity. All the datasheets I have seen list the capacity at a very low current draw, from what I have tested at low currents they do make their ratings. But if you are talking about their max current draw ratings, Yeah there’s really not many that will do what the rated current draw is safely.

[Enderman]

@SKV89

There are alot of cells that HKJ skips. I think he only tests cells available in the UK. He haven’t even tested the VTC5D and that’s a pretty popular cell around here for the max lumen guys.

I ordered the 36G to test. Will test them and post back.

Sweet, thanks.
If my guess is right it will have both better mAh and better current than the 35E, and that would be sweet

[HydrAxx]

Personally, I have 4 units of Samsung INR18650-36G that I finished testing the day before yesterday, they are continuous 10A cells, it is a little better than the LG M36, but the best of four that I I have tested has not exceeded 3552mAh in continuous discharge at 0.2A, accurate 4.20v at 2.50v accurate (discharge current cutout set to 0.01A is 10mA, so I can not get better than that), concretely this cell does not reach the 3600mAh as its rated capacity indicates, but it does not really surprise me, because I tested 10 units of LG M36 a few months ago, it has the same indication of nominal capacity is 3600mAh, and the best M36 of the lot did not exceed 3543mAh too. The only things that can be credited to these two new cells (Samsung 36G and LG M36) is better internal resistance than any other high capacity cell that existed before (Sanyo GA, LG MJ1 and Samsung 35E) and better voltage performance than previously equivalent discharge compared to older models too. Otherwise, but it remains to be confirmed in time, the M36 and 36G have supposedly a longer life, that’s all that knows about these two new cells.