Received the engineering sample from Nichia today.
I requested the 119D instead of 219D because I’m still curious and optimistic that 119 footprint will outperforms 219 on my VR16S1 board as I suspected months ago. The larger total cooling area plus larger current capability with 119 footprint should nett higher max output than the less than optimal 219 thermal pad surface. This 119D also very interesting with it’s “glass lens” as described in the data sheet. Let’s find out if this new LED has something new to offer for BLFers.
I made a new improved measurement methods which is far more reliable than my earlier tests. There’s a sandwich of aluminum adapter – lapped thick copper clamped on a thick cast iron mini milling machine’s bed. The addition of 5 digits volt meter makes a huge difference in measurement consistency. An LED is very sensitive to heat changes and the forward voltage reading is a very reliable data to measure its junction temperature down to 0,1 C. Using the forward voltage we can always go back to the same junction temperature between each measurements. This way the LED can be used as an accurate thermometer (some math involved).
Each measurement recorded only when the Vf stabilized. This means my new testing method puts much more stress on the LED as it had to stays in the test current for ~1-3 minutes before moving to another step. The test started at 27,2C (aluminum adapter temp) and ended at 28C, the change was too small to make any difference.
This way, even though I still don’t have a proper Integrating sphere for direct output measurement, anybody can use the curve and interpolate the lux reading with a valid base point. The lux meter used was TASI 632A with good performance as tested by Djozz here.
AWG 24 wire used tested to have less than 0,0002 V voltage reduction/meter. I used 50mm wires to connect the LED to the volt meter.
The lux meter sensor placed behind the table under a frosted diffuser (not shown). Measurements done in complete darkness to avoid errors from shadows or my movements.
Output test result was a disappointment. I guess this LED is a lower cost alternative to 319A for streetlight projects. Below 3A the performance is superior to 219C D320 and very close to 319A D440f2.
I converted the lux measurements to D340 bin which should output in 340 – 360 lumens at 700mA. Based on Djozz, Texas_Ace, and Maukka tests Nichia has been very consistent with it’s output binning. I used 350 lumens at 700mA at 25C as the base conversion point. The converted output matched Nichia’s chart very well.
Just in case you’re wondering if it’s the MCPCB or the LED which caused the lower output. Here’s a comparison of my earlier back to back test between Sinkpad copper DTP vs VR16S1 aluminum non DTP:
Chart:
Dedome result was a success. This is the EASIEST dedoming I’ve ever done. Just a simple peel with a sharp knife and most of the dome fell off the die easily. I was right, the phosphors-silicone mix glued behind a small hard glass window. This explain the higher efficiency (below max current) compared to the older 219C. With multi refractive index primary lens more photons escape the die.
My prediction is this dedomed 119D/219D will suffer less loss compared to traditional LED with single medium primary lens. I will dedome a fresh 119D and test the intensity tomorrow. We now have a true Nichia 119D HI! The phosphor is still protected after dedoming process
LAZY BEAMSHOTS with no lux measurements. I’m too lazy to make another test rig. The reflectors I have are just too big for this 16mm MCPCB. And the TIR optics needs to be fastened for a horizontal lux measurement. I only use simple ceiling beam shot with 20mm 5 degree Yajiamei XP TIR optic.
WB = 5600K, Same speed and aperture settings. All test were done at the same 1A setting to make it easier to see output differences.
IMHO, the dedomed 119D looks best if we ignore the magenta ring.
If anyone interested. The sample is available for evaluation for USD 0,8/pc. The price is just to cover JPN – ID, DHL express shipping cost only, no duty tax this time fortunately.
———————————————-
UPDATE 190216: 119D vs 219D test result:
http://budgetlightforum.com/comment/1461666#comment-1461666
- Clemence
Very excited to see a Maukka test!
djozz quotes, "it came with chinese lettering that is chinese to me".
"My man mousehole needs one too"
old4570 said "I'm not an expert , so don't suffer from any such technical restrictions".
Old-Lumens. Highly admired and cherished member of Budget Light Forum. 11.5.2011 - 20.12.16. RIP.
The output and max current are not my real concern. I expect this to be approximately lower than 319A. It’s the dedomed performance capability what interests me more. Unless Nichia put the “hard glass” wording wrong in the data sheet… then this is just another slightly brighter upgrade to 119C/219C.
- Clemence
www.virence.com
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Well, we can be hopeful, but I believe there has never been a flip-chip LED (no bond wires) with a high luminance dedomed.
OP Updated with test result!
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Thanks for the test! And looking forward to the dedoming attempt.
link to djozz tests
Yup, next test (tomorrow) will be dedoming capability.
- Clemence
www.virence.com
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Thanks maukka!
What is Tj at high current?
I think a good predictor of the general luminance performance is whether the area around the die emits light. If the side areas emit a lot of light (like XPG3, 219C) the die luminance is lower. That light being emitted from the side areas was produced in the die, but is not emitted from the die area, thereby reducing the die luminance relative to if that light was emitted from the die itself.
The dedomed XHP70.2 was a big increase over stock.
The OPTOFIRE - 4.63Mcd aspheric LED flashlight The SYNIOSBEAM - 10Mcd recoil LED flashlight List of the farthest throwing flashlights
You mean over the first generation? I don’t know if it was a big increase, and it’s still not a high luminance emitter. I think most of the improvement over the XHP70 has to do with the less dim cross of the XHP70.2. In a reflector light the dark spaces between the dies decreases the peak beam intensity, and so the XHP70.2 takes less of hit with its less-dark cross.
I think Clemence’s new avatar is too colorful and now everybody gets us mixed up.
Not as colorful as yours. There are at least three people with lookalike avatars in BLF
- Clemence
www.virence.com
Its Okay To Be Smart - SmarterEveryDay - Deep Look
Shooting Beamshots with HDR
Thanks Clemence!
What is Tj at high current?
I don’t know, didn’t measure it. Judging from the aluminum adapter temp and the board and thermal resistance it’s still far from 150C. It’s easy to measure later. All I have to do is just heat it to two known temperatures and measure the forward voltage as fast as possible.
- Clemence
www.virence.com
Its Okay To Be Smart - SmarterEveryDay - Deep Look
Shooting Beamshots with HDR
I like your test setup
If you add a disc with cutted slots or holes in the chuck you can repeat Foucault’s light speed experiment.
Low-cost copper pills, spacers, optics, drop-ins.
Thanks.
I’d prefer to just examine his results (for now) than to repeat it.
UPDATE 180622:
Dedoming attempt was a success! Check OP for details
- Clemence
www.virence.com
Its Okay To Be Smart - SmarterEveryDay - Deep Look
Shooting Beamshots with HDR
Ohhh boy, game on! Looking forward to your impressions.
Sorry, I still haven’t done the lux test for the dedomed 119D yet. Was too busy tour-guiding my friend’s family. Here’s some pictures, mind the quality they’re taken with my old phone’s camera.
Been living in Bali for almost 5 years but never knew this place. Penglipuran Village
The area is canopied in dense bamboo forest. This is a public roadway. Conserved and harvested by traditional local regulation to keep it that way for hundreds of years.
A nice snorkeling/spearfishing spot 7 driving minutes from my workshop:
Cheap fresh seafood in Kedonganan fishermen village:
You can buy them directly from the traditional market (equipped with modern digital scale) and get them grilled in the “budget restaurants” next to the market. This way you’ll get roughly 1/3 the cost as if you spend in fancy “tourists” restaurants in the area.
- 1kg Travelly = USD 4,3
- 0,5kg Tiger shrimps = USD 4
- 0,5kg cuttlefish = USD 3,5.
- The grilling cost is USD 2,8 (1,4/kg whatever it is).
- Clemence
www.virence.com
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Looking amazing Clemence!
I want to try that shrimp!
UPDATE 180626:
Beam shots added
- Clemence
www.virence.com
Its Okay To Be Smart - SmarterEveryDay - Deep Look
Shooting Beamshots with HDR
Any news about the lux tests?
UPDATE 190216: 119D vs 219D test result
I finally received 219D samples with same bin to 119D samples received earlier. I supposed to do the test about 3 months ago but I lost my motivation due to disappointing 119D/219D performance. Yesterday I decided to take a one day break from making lights, out of boredom. I don’t care what the output these 119D/219D might be. And these LEDs really have no value to me since they’re limited to R70 and has no significant over current capability. That was a loss paying $80 for 119D custom clearance
I’m more interested in proving my theory that LED with 2 pads has higher performance potential than traditional (well, now it’s considered traditional) 3 pads with dedicated thermal bridge. And also to test if hot-rodders will benefit from pure Indium solder,
Found a broken aquarium cooler parts and decided to improve the test for faster readings and more consistent results. Total loss cooling was chosen rather than making a dedicated automatic Peltier cooling unit. Water temp is relative constant (within hours) and provide ample cooling with very few parts needed.
Measurement recorded manually anytime the voltage reading stabilized. With this massive cooling, I can cut down recording time to less than 2 minutes per current steps compared to normal air or passive cooling. My friend asked Nichia for 219D samples, he’s a street light manufacturer. Received 6pcs 219D sm505 D340 R70 samples from him. Here’s the specimens:
Much larger cooling area in 119D. Nichia is very thrifty when it comes to thermal pad unlike Cree which uses as large as possible thermal pad. I have a strong feeling that the larger pads in 119D affects current carrying and current heating characteristic. Smaller pad will be hotter for any amount current it passes through.
Before we begin please check the summary below.
And….crap….I forgot to use the same resolution as my earlier test!! I used the same 100mA resolution from 100mA – 1000mA, and but then 250mA from 1A – 6A. While previous test was done with 200mA resolution from 1A – 5A. So, I had to interpolate some numbers using 1A, 2A, 3A, 4A, and 5A as my anchor points. This is why later you’ll see dots rather than continuous plot in the chart result.
My first test result used derived data from Nichia data sheet and measurement lux. Now using Maukka’s calibrated lights I can measure the real output. The output numbers at 700mA barely meets the specified 340lm – 360lm but this is to be expected since Nichia use 25°C Tj and 10ms pulsed current which I can’t replicate.
And the result was really satisfying:
Inline with my previous test with 319A, aluminum VR16SP4 with normal 63/37 performs slightly lower than copper DTP above rated manufacturer maximum current. But the result with Indium surprised me, I didn’t expect such gain. I’ve been using Indium for all my nano-ceramic soldering just because it allows me to get cleaner and faster result while put less stress to the LEDs. This extra performance was unexpected.
I don’t think good DTP MCPCB would benefit much from pure indium other than reduced soldering temp required (160°C is all you need to reflow Indium). This because I suspect any good DTP MCPCB already near its peak performance limit. Pure indium will also benefit all non DTP MCPCB as long as the LED has relatively large pad(s).
LED remains:
CONCLUSION:
119D/219D119D has higher potential output than 219D at extreme currentBoth have very good output for its (die) size up to rated current (2A).With their “ezy-dedome” feature is a good choice for small medium power throwerThey’re not good LED for extreme modifications beyond rated currentExtra result observedWith proper MCPCB 2 pads LED have higher potential performance than 3 pads LED because of larger cooling area and less current resistance. This simplifies MCPCB design. Currently, there are more high performance non DTP with very close performance to DTP previously impossible. Cost, while already vastly reduced compared to few years back still limits end product use of these MCPCBs. For example, to get twice the performance of VR16S1 there’s a steep 6x cost increase.To get higher performance out of nano-ceramic MCPCB without spending too much in MCPCB technology, pure indium solder is a cheaper option affordable for hobbyist like us.- Clemence
www.virence.com
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Wow Indium is amazing, but doubt manufacturers will be willing to spend extra for it in the very competitive flashlight world. Thanks for posting the very interesting and useful results.
I mean, if we could manage a bulk order of indium solder, maybe we could get the prices down.
And with LEDs like the XHP70.2/CFT-90 where power density is insane, or even the 1mm2/2mm2 White Flats, Indium could get a nice performance increase.
My very own high current Beryllium Copper springs Gen 3:
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/67401
Liitokala Aliexpress Stores Battery Fraud: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/60547
Nice result, thanks!
Though I wonder how much of it is caused by different thermal paste. I would expect neither solder nor paste to have such big effect…
Maybe it’s about solder microstructure? Voids?
Actually I think that indium could give higher benefit on DTP boards. And with LEDs that have small thermal pads.
That’s because there solder is a bigger part of total thermal resistance.
I would also expect it to be a bigger deal with LEDs that are more capable of being overdriven. There are a few LEDs that have > 8W/mm² of thermal pad.
Yes, the XH35 (HI) and the Osram White Flat LEDs would be a good for an additional test.
Project Excalibur - Next Generation LED Thrower (UPDATE 2018-01-15: 1.7Mcd)
Portable Thrower Comparison
Solder paste vs bearing grease don’t make measurable different at all, minuscule if there’s any. I tested it before. Due to these factors:
- The LED cooling pads total surface area is very small compared to the MCPCB contact area.
- Both MCPCB and the copper water block lapped to almost mirror finish on a piece of thick glass using #320, #1000, and #2000 SiC powder. I could fine lap them with superfine diamond lapping paste but didn’t do it.
- Only very little amount of thermal paste/grease applied, and most of them squeezed off by the overkill clamping force of two M10 bolts
You are probably right about DTP MCPCB benefits more from Indium than non DTP MCPCB. But factor these:
- Most high performance DTPs has raised thermal pad to make very thin solder bond line. Sinkpad is not as good as Noctigon, Kerui, or perhaps L4P (haven’t tried L4P MCPCB) in that regards because thermal pad height is positioned lower than the anode/cathode pads (thicker solder joint). Very thin solder bond line creates small thermal resistance difference between solder materials (50 W/MK for Sn63Pb37 vs 80 W/MK for In100. But doubling the pad surface area will nett you much higher difference. With 15 microns solder bond line we only get 38% thermal resistance reduction with In100. With the same 15 microns bond line but doubling the area we get 69% thermal resistance reduction.
- Another bottleneck in MCPCB after the solder material itself is the surface finish plating. ENIG is very common these days. The heat from LED has to travel through a layer of nickel. Although very thin, Nickel has thermal conductivity <90 W/MK at LED operating temp.
Stay tune, more test to come!
- Clemence
www.virence.com
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