Testing a Cree XHP50.2 J4 3A led

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Texas_Ace
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Remember that the xhp runs at 6v so 24A at 6V would be the same as 48A at 3V. AKA, it would get VERY VERY hot. You will really need a buck driver to drive these as well due to the super low Vf they have. 4 of them together could pull as much as 72A of current on a low resistance FET driver based on other peoples results.

That is a whopping 425W of power! Or over 5 times the amount of heat that the Q8 produces right now. Also I would not trust the LED’s to survive that long term.

That said, the xhp50.2 should be capable of about 5k lumens each maxed out although 3.5-4k each is a more reasonable goal IMHO. It also keeps the heat a bit more reasonable.

As I have said before, a quad xhp50.2 Q8 should be able to make around 15k lumens without much trouble and more if you push it. Or drop it down to ~10k lumens and it should have about the same amount of heat and battery life as the XP-L’s at ~6k lumens. If you just really want to hit 16k lumens for the numbers to match up, then yes, that should be possible.

Now for the green tint, this is not really an issue I have noticed unless you get a funky tint LED from above the black body line (like a 3C vs the good 3D for example).

The newer LED’s do have some yellow tint shift but that is largely reflector dependent from what I have seen. Larger and deeper reflectors with OP don’t have an issue.

Optics like the cute-3 work great and removing all the tint shift but that would not really work for the Q8.

The only practical way of doing this is to use a buck driver with the cells in 4s and the LED’s in 2s2p. By upping the voltage to 12V you drop the current needs down to around 12A. This is doable with repetitively cheap buck drivers like a beefed up version of the GT driver.

Wired in 6V they would need twice the current and the driver would cost a fair amount more as well.

Basically a Q16 is possible and would work for sure but would also cost more for sure.

tjeret
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stormrider88 wrote:
Ok, here is a close-up of the S2…
1 tiny resistor is quite close to the XML2 (?)

!{width:70%}http://i.imgur.com/5yAr02l.jpg!

The component/connector is pretty decent, light brand/type ?
Can you wrote marking/code on top of U1 please? Interesting package for IC

Resistor near LED possibly a Thermistor (marking RT1) act as thermal feedback for the driver itself

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cool. thanks TA!

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stormrider88 wrote:
Ok, here is a close-up of the S2…
1 tiny resistor is quite close to the XML2 (?)


In this picture you see XPL HD LEDs with 3535 footprint, XML2 have 5050 footprint and wont fit

You can replace em with Nichia 219 High CRI LEDs

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Hahaha nice one Lexel, I never played with XML2 too much, I didn’t put too much attention to the LED when I saw the picture.

@Stormrider: he ask you to write him the code/type of the big IC in the middle between the LED

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No, I did different exposures to show the beam profile clearer. The XPL is slightly brighter than 319A.

Check Texas_Ace’s signature for the test results. He did a very good test comparing XPL/XPL2 and 319A a while back.

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Stormrider, I suggest you to create a new thread in Headlight section. We’ll continue there, for the sake of better indexing. So people will get what they “googled” for in BLF.

We’re already too far off the original topic here. This is a very interesting topic indeed and I think we better share it in the matching section so people can easily find it when they need related information.

See you there… Smile

- Clemence

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stormrider88 wrote:
Good idea…

Should I start a new thread or just pick any related topic??

I think a new topic would be better. Smile

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Running them in 6v in series or in 12V in parallel will net you the same results. Each LED will get 2.4A in series but they will only be at 6V, so the same amount of light at 1.2A at 12V.

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I never really like triples or quads (except for tint mixing) as long as I can use bigger dies LED in a single optics. Smaller TIR will eats up efficiency and make beam control somewhat limited. If you have 4 XPGs and 1 XHP50 and you only want one beam profile pattern then go for XHP50 paired to a single bigger optics. For multi beam pattern try assymetric optics. If it’s unavailable then 4 different unique optics would be the next choice. FYI the output/efficacy of 4 x XPG3 setup is almost equal to a single XHP50.2.

- Clemence

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Hey, coming in on the backside of this, I’m cooking up a build with an XHP50 (not the .2 version).

-First tried a 2A driver from mtnelectronics. On 3 CR123’s or 2 17500’s, I think it tried to fry my fingerprints off. Pretty sure that was too much current. Depending on the physical arrangements of the components it would actually run on high but I think I was nearing the limits of the components and it would go low. Did some math and realized the 6V led times 2A was 12w of power pulling way too hard on the batteries. I know there’s an XHP50 in the Lumens Factory mini-turbohead so it must be possible. There’s a sweet-spot for the current in there somewhere.

- I scaled back to a 1A driver currently and it’s calmed down. I have a 1.2A driver from Kaido on the way which I think should be a pretty good sweet spot. Going to try that out later. It’s an unbored 3-cell Surefire M3, so not a ton of power I can cram into it. My goal is a plug and play head that doesn’t require li-ion batteries. Either 2 17500’s or the option to run primaries in a pinch.

(going to transplant an SST-40 onto the 2A driver and see what that does. A 3V LED should play nice® in that configuration.)

Just want to thank djozz for putting this together! This post and the info herein, especially the output/lumens chart brought me to BLF.

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Just now I noticed on the XHP50.2 on page 2 and page 3 there is a 3 volt version mentioned. Has anyone ever found this emitter for sale?
https://www.cree.com/led-components/media/documents/ds-XHP502.pdf

It says “3-V XHP50.2 LEDs are available only at 5000 K CCT.” And there is s drive current rating for it.

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vestureofblood wrote:
Just now I noticed on the XHP50.2 on page 2 and page 3 there is a 3 volt version mentioned. Has anyone ever found this emitter for sale?
https://www.cree.com/led-components/media/documents/ds-XHP502.pdf

It says “3-V XHP50.2 LEDs are available only at 5000 K CCT.” And there is s drive current rating for it.


Hmmm, I seem to recall someone seeing that on either the 50.2 or the 70.2 but I haven’t heard of Cree actually releasing it.

This might also be a case where some big company special ordered a large batch of 3v versions to retro fit a cities worth of street lamps or something. I don’t think it necessarily means they will be selling a 3v version to the public.

Who knows, though.

Texas Ace Lumen Tube and JoshK Sphere calibrated with Maukka lights

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vestureofblood wrote:
Just now I noticed on the XHP50.2 on page 2 and page 3 there is a 3 volt version mentioned. Has anyone ever found this emitter for sale?
https://www.cree.com/led-components/media/documents/ds-XHP502.pdf

It says “3-V XHP50.2 LEDs are available only at 5000 K CCT.” And there is s drive current rating for it.

It was mentioned in another thread as well but to date I have not heard of any spotted in the wild yet. I am also very interested in these. If someone finds some please let me know.

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TA, congrats on 8k posts! Party

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LOL, I didn’t even realize I had posted that much.

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vestureofblood wrote:
Just now I noticed on the XHP50.2 on page 2 and page 3 there is a 3 volt version mentioned. Has anyone ever found this emitter for sale?
https://www.cree.com/led-components/media/documents/ds-XHP502.pdf

It says “3-V XHP50.2 LEDs are available only at 5000 K CCT.” And there is s drive current rating for it.


It seems to be for sale!

Check out this thread for details.
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/66033

Texas Ace Lumen Tube and JoshK Sphere calibrated with Maukka lights

Click this to go to signature links. I'm still around, just not reading many new threads.

vestureofblood
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I will have 100pc here in a couple days Smile

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http://asflashlights.com/ Everyday Carry Flashlights, plus Upgrades for Maglite.

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Thanks for the heads up, now to find a 5000k version

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For those of you that want some I have the 3 volt XHP50s in stock now.
https://asflashlights.com/home/130-cree-xhp-70-n4-5700k.html

Those are bare LEDs. When I get back on Monday if there are any left I will reflow some to mcpcbs.

In Him (Jesus Christ) was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
http://asflashlights.com/ Everyday Carry Flashlights, plus Upgrades for Maglite.

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Hi All,

I'm new to this forum and to Cree LEDs. I have a project in mind using the XHP50.2, however I can see that I'm at the bottom of a steep learning curve.

I intend powering the 6/12V version from a 3 cell LiPo

a Few questions if I may:

  • I note that people mention reflectors. Were do I find these? I assume that they are a can of worms in their own right.
  • Do you use propriety drivers, or do you manufacture these? i.e. do you use custom driver chips? Can I simply ise a mosFET driven from my processor?
  • I was hoping to find built-in temperature sensors to manage heat - what do you guys do?

I anticipated seeing details of drivers and best practice in the Cree data sheets, but sadly no!

  • Is there a 'must read' resource that you can recommend?

 

Kind regards

A

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aDub wrote:

Hi All,


I’m new to this forum and to Cree LEDs. I have a project in mind using the XHP50.2, however I can see that I’m at the bottom of a steep learning curve.


I intend powering the 6/12V version from a 3 cell LiPo


a Few questions if I may:



  • I note that people mention reflectors. Were do I find these? I assume that they are a can of worms in their own right.

  • Do you use propriety drivers, or do you manufacture these? i.e. do you use custom driver chips? Can I simply ise a mosFET driven from my processor?

  • I was hoping to find built-in temperature sensors to manage heat – what do you guys do?


I anticipated seeing details of drivers and best practice in the Cree data sheets, but sadly no!



  • Is there a ‘must read’ resource that you can recommend?


 


Kind regards


A

Welcome to BLF! Smile

You are on a flashlight forum, so the solutions that many of us have for driving leds may be a bit different from what you need for your application. The electronics that we use to drive the leds are often small and simple and are low-voltage to have them run from batteries. Also we like to drive leds hard and do not care a lot about led life. Many flashlights do have thermo regulation though, not to keep them longterm happy but to prevent shortterm frying.

That said, we may have some help for you. There is not a short manual here on BLF, but there are some resources for leds and stuff, mainly this one may be of help: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/26665 .

There are a few vendors that sell flashlight related parts, like leds, drivers, reflectors etc. Since you are in the UK, the US sources (mtnelectronics.com, illumn.com, Mouser, Digikey) are often too expensive because of shipping cost, others sources are kaidomain.com, banggood.com, led4power.com.

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Nice, I have a few of these on order looks like they will be pretty good with a bit of drive, looking at your chart i may even swap out the Xhp70.2 in the L6 for one of these

aDub
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Thanks for the quick reply.
That’s quite a reference, I’ll check it out!

Regards
A

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I’ve got a question about driving the 6V XHP50.2.

I’m planning to run four 6V XHP50.2 in parallel on a 5050 Q8 MCPCB with a direct drive TA driver. I have read that the XHP50.2 6V is sensitive to overcurrent and gets dark dies fast. To limit the current in direct drive I would not bypass the tail spring, use 22 AWG wire and use only 10 or 20A max discharge cells. They would run on two 26350, 18350 or 26650 batteries in a Haikelite SC04.

I would also cut some traces on the Q8 MCPCB and add some sense resistors. Do you think it is enough if I add one R010 resistor for all four leds or would it be better to have one resistor for each led?

I would use two 5000K 90CRI H2 and two 2700K 90CRI G2. I don’t know if they have a different Vf so maybe I should use one resistor for the 5000K and one for the 2700K? Before I start the build I’m seeking advice from anyone who has experience with the XHP50.2 6V so that my leds will survive and run safely in this flashlight.

EasyB
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My understanding of the XHP50.2 reliability issue is that it is a quality control problem at Cree that affects the quality/strength of the bonding of each die to the package. Then differential thermal expansion cycling during use causes the bond(s) to fail and those dies go dark.

My guess is that, while very high current would probably make it more likely for a bond to fail, the quality of the bonds in the specific batch of LEDs you’re using probably has a larger impact on whether your LED will fail. Maybe (hopefully) this was only a problem in some earlier batches of the XHP50.2. I haven’t heard of any of the 3V XHP50.2s failing. Although those use a slightly different package layout I would think the die bonding process is similar.

So, unfortunately, at this point it seems like a gamble to use these LEDs. Maybe you get some good ones or maybe not. Maybe others have some more recent experience with these LEDs. I would go ahead and use the XHP50.2s. If some of them fail, maybe replace two of them with 2 3V LEDs (like XML2) in series? That will at least give you a little insurance to salvage the light if you get a couple failures.

As far as adding resistance to lower the current, I’m not sure what you should do. With some decent 26650 cells and everything bypassed you should pull around 20-24A (5-6A each LED). With the best high drain 26650s it would be closer to 30A. With 26350 cells you might get more like 12A. Leaving the tailspring unbypassed might not be a good option if it will overheat the spring. Adding one R010 for each LED would be putting the resistors in parallel so it would be like adding only 2.5 mOhms of resistance. Very approximately, adding 40 mOhms of resistance would reduce the current by about 4A for the case of the decent 26650 cells.

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Skylight wrote:
I’ve got a question about driving the 6V XHP50.2.

I’m planning to run four 6V XHP50.2 in parallel on a 5050 Q8 MCPCB with a direct drive TA driver. I have read that the XHP50.2 6V is sensitive to overcurrent and gets dark dies fast. To limit the current in direct drive I would not bypass the tail spring, use 22 AWG wire and use only 10 or 20A max discharge cells. They would run on two 26350, 18350 or 26650 batteries in a Haikelite SC04.

I would also cut some traces on the Q8 MCPCB and add some sense resistors. Do you think it is enough if I add one R010 resistor for all four leds or would it be better to have one resistor for each led?

I would use two 5000K 90CRI H2 and two 2700K 90CRI G2. I don’t know if they have a different Vf so maybe I should use one resistor for the 5000K and one for the 2700K? Before I start the build I’m seeking advice from anyone who has experience with the XHP50.2 6V so that my leds will survive and run safely in this flashlight.

XHP50.2 6V can easily handle about 7-8A, as you got four you can say like 30A are fine, to get this much out of any XX350 cells is impossible, 2S/4P 18650 could bee too much
usually even between different bins the voltage difference should not be big, if you got like 20mOhms thats totally fine to balance them out, which could be achieved by one having a longer smaller gauge

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Thank you for the explanation, EasyB. I think it was actually one of your builds where you reported 7 XHP50.2 failing one after another. Maybe I will try to add two R082 resistors in parallel to limit the current.

Thank you, Lexel. I will definitely use long and thin wires. Are you sure that the XHP50 can handle 7-8 A without getting dark dies? Is the XHP50 more likely to fail in multiple emitter setups?

I also wanted to build a flashlight with four 26650 in series and 12 XHP50. I planned to use 3V XHP50 5000K but it seems at the moment they are hardly available anywhere. The advantage of 6V XHP50’s is being available in 4000K and high cri.

So if I would use 12 XHP50 6V in direct drive with 4 26650 do you think it would be too much and cause some leds to fail? Of course I would use copper MCPCBs and the emitters in 2S6P configuration.

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Skylight wrote:
Thank you for the explanation, EasyB. I think it was actually one of your builds where you reported 7 XHP50.2 failing one after another. Maybe I will try to add two R082 resistors in parallel to limit the current.

Thank you, Lexel. I will definitely use long and thin wires. Are you sure that the XHP50 can handle 7-8 A without getting dark dies? Is the XHP50 more likely to fail in multiple emitter setups?

I also wanted to build a flashlight with four 26650 in series and 12 XHP50. I planned to use 3V XHP50 5000K but it seems at the moment they are hardly available anywhere. The advantage of 6V XHP50’s is being available in 4000K and high cri.

So if I would use 12 XHP50 6V in direct drive with 4 26650 do you think it would be too much and cause some leds to fail? Of course I would use copper MCPCBs and the emitters in 2S6P configuration.

Problem with parallel LEDs in common are thats possible the current does not split up evenly
XHP50.2 can be likely driven as a single LED with 8A
XHP50 Gen 1 not
parallel with 41mOhms would limit the current a bit and helps even out different LED forward voltages a bit

lets say you target 5A per Emitter one LED has 6.5V the other 6.4V forward voltage
the current would not split up evenly for the XHP50.2 you got about 0.75A difference between both LEDs so 6.5V gets only 4.625A the 6.4V gets 5.375A
so if you plan 12V you are better off pair each series string to get as close together with the other,
as its like a chain the LED with the lowest forward voltage takes most current and if it dies the others get also more current

if you add 50mOhms in front of the LED you limit the current as it needs 0.25V more to get 5A flowing,
but in this case also 1.25W heat are generated on the resistor so you need ones that can handle high power
also if an LED with 0.1V difference wants to draw 0.375A more it lowers it to about 0.3A more, not enough to be seen as a solution

But you can even out strings with different resistor values adjusting them to the same overall forward voltage,
but then you need a bench power supply and open up the strings on the MCPCB and got some work

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Easiest way to limit current in a DD light such as this in my experience, is to simply use lower drain cells.

If 30Q’s are too much, generally dropping down to GA’s get me into safe current ranges and is way easier then messing with other options.

If that is not enough, second best option I have found is to simply use longer and/or thinner gauge wire to limit current some. Just don’t go too thin or the wire will melt, you can go longer though.

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