What blade did you EDC today?

Thanks Tally-ho, you hit the nail on the head. :+1: ā€¦. Seems there are many other ā€˜termsā€™ that refer to the same steels you referenced.
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https://www.thebestthings.com/newtools/japanese_steel.htm

Japanese Blue and White Steel

The most widely available Japanese tool steel is manufactured in two forms: blue steel and white steel ā€“ named for the color of the wrapping paper used by the maker. Knowledge of these two formā€™s chemical content and tempering process allow the woodworker considering Japanese edge tools to make some tradeoff between hardness and toughness in the bladeā€™s edge qualities. Hardness means the temper and content of the metal is such that the blade can be sharpened to a very fine degree but results in a somewhat brittle edge prone to chipping or crumbling. Toughness refers to the ability of the edge to avoid damage, and thus stay sharp longer.

Blue steel, or Aogami, has tungsten and chromium alloys added to the edge steel that make the hardening temperature less important, resulting in an edge that tends to be tougher, and thus stay sharp longer than white steel, while not taking on as fine an edge.

White steel, or Shirogami, contains fewer impurities and does not have the alloys added, so the hardening temperature range is very narrow. The blacksmith forging white steel has to be very skilled, but the result is tool steel that can be sharpened to a very fine, but more brittle, edge. Both forms are further broken down into grades based on the carbon content of the steel.

The better Japanese blades are laminated by hammer welding the edge steel onto an iron or softer carbon steel core, the actual process proprietary to each blacksmith. So, while there is science in the forging, hammering, heat treating and tempering processes, more than anything else the quality of the steel is the result of the care and skill of the blacksmith.

These are family run businesses that trace their lineage back to the edged weapon makers to the samurai and it takes 10-15 years at minimum to perfect the craft. Considering this learning curve, it is no small wonder that Japanese blue and white steel blades made by traditional methods are superior to machine manufactured products.

When trying to decide which blade to buy in a Japanese tool you should bear in mind the difference between blue steel, white steel, or the exemplary special process steels like Damascus is not one of quality.

There is a wide range of qualities available in both types of steel, and in the chisels made with from these steels. You can get acceptable toughness in very hard white steel chisels while taking advantage of that formā€™s ability to yield a very sharp edge; or you can get a quality blue steel blade that can be honed and sharpened very finely.

And of course it is quite easy to get neither hardness nor toughness in a sub-standard steel blade, blue or white, from an inept or sloppy manufacturer.

The chisels that we are offering are all at the higher end of what is available. It really boils down to the quality of the steel and the skill and care of the blacksmith. So, consider the edge qualities you want in a chisel and buy your Japanese edge tools from a trusted source. Either form of steel in a quality tool will yield outstanding results.

ā€¦ā€¦ā€¦ā€¦

White Steel vs Blue Steel

Simply put.

White steel is iron, carbon and not much else.
Blue steel is iron, carbon, tungsten and chromium.

White steel can and will take a finer, sharper edge, is generally tougher and more resilient, easier to work with during manufacture, less expensive and is, in most cases, the best steel for chisels, especially chisels that will be struck during use.

Blue steel will take a very good edge and keep an edge for longer than white steel can in planing and paring cuts. Because of the added alloying elements, itā€™s a little more brittle, is slightly more difficult to work with during manufacture, slightly more expensive and is ideal for planes and paring chisels.

This is not the be all and end all ā€˜ruleā€™, as there is some cross over between the steels and a blue steel chisel can be a wonderful thing, as can a white steel plane stay sharp for a very long time. But as a general ā€˜ruleā€™, this covers it with some exceptions for special circumstances.

The ā€˜sharpest edgeā€™ doesnā€™t mean anything if you canā€™t actually get the edge there thoughā€¦

Sooo, white steel is easier to sharpen and is ā€˜more likelyā€™ to have a better edge put on it because of that. If youā€™re able to confidently put an excellent edge on white steel, then blue steel shouldnā€™t be a problem.

I hope that helps,

Stu.

Good, Iā€™m glad you found the reading interesting & enjoyed the pictures you found.

Yeah, it is pretty amazing the patterns they can acheive. I am awestruck with most of it. :wink:

Brad Vices shop (Alabama Damascus) is only about a quarter mile from Bear & Son Cutlery . He supplies Bear with their Damascus in addition to supplying other outlets & his internet sales.

I do know Brad, having met him through a friend who is a Custom Knife maker. He is a nice & personable guy.

I have been to his shop when they were forging. It is pretty neat seeing those Damascus billets being forged on those huge power hammers. :open_mouth: . :+1:

Hey Stu, just a little confused here. In the first section it says white steel is more brittle, while blue steel is tougher. Yet in second section, says blue steel is more brittleā€¦ :question:

ā€œStuā€ must have been drinking. :smiley:
Those were copied & pasted from the site the links go to. Iā€™d trust the first one. The second one was from a forumā€¦ so who knows. :confounded: . :wink:

It could just be a ditterence of opinon or based on heat treat & Rockwell hardness differences or other variables.

Itā€™s just like the search for the ā€œMagical Search for the Super Steelā€ that tops all othersā€¦ā€¦ :smiley:
The vast majority of people will not be able to tell the difference. :wink:
Any good steel, if ground & heat treated properly; is going to cut very good. It is also much better to have a ā€œlesser steelā€ properly heat treater than a ā€˜Super Steelā€™ that is not.

I have some Customs made of 1095 that are heat treated perfectly that out do some ā€˜Super Steelsā€™ where the heat treat was not quite up to par. Close mind you, but it missed the mark.

Here are some videos I thought you might find interestingā€¦.
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A couple more about Alabama Damascusā€¦ā€¦

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ā€¦ā€¦
This one by Ed Caffrey is about etching Damascus & is good. Very detailed though.

I am acquainted with Ed, he is a Bladesmith from Great Falls, Montana & a super nice guy. He makes his own Damascus as well as a great knife too. They ainā€™t cheap eitherā€¦ā€¦ :money_mouth_face:

Unfortunately, due to serious health issues Ed has had to take some time off for a while.

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Caffrey Knives

^ thanks @teacher, lots of good info in that. :+1:

Your welcome xevious, I enjoyed watching those & thought you might also. Take careā€¦ :beer:

Thankā€™s Teacher. Tally Ho.
and all the rest of you.

As shown. it is a VERY interesting subject. with lots of variations.

Sorry I havenā€™t answered but I have gud days and bad days.
Hmmm.

ā€œā€Shirogami = white steel, aogami = blue steel also called white paper steel and blue paper steel based on the color of the paper they are (or were traditionally) wrapped in if iā€™m not wrong.ā€œā€

As I said in beginning. Steels do vary.
BUTā€¦ Itā€™s the experience and skills of smith that makes any what it is.
Good steel/bad blade. or Cheaper steel Good blade.

Hocho, and several others will give all the info you need.

And. Realistically.
Hocho usually the cheaper for same blades. It does vary with specials though.

In your price range. Iseya 33 damascus. 6 in Petty.
VERY nice blade I love mine. $75 now.
Tojiro DP 3 layer VG10. 7in Santoku. $91
A LOT of proā€™s use it and itā€™s smaller mate around the world.
Sharpens well. Cuts well and stainless.
Iseya 33 dam, same knife different tip shape. $125
A little dearer. but very pretty.
The smooth damascus ARE prettier than the hammered but.
Your eyes.

Iā€™m only going on blades ā€œIā€™veā€ owned personally, Have Used and felt a lot more.
Plus multiple Mates have many others.

Coupla grand a blade is nothing if you appreciate such. But I wasnā€™t a good enough cutter , handler. To Appreciate such.
I Just appreciated at my skill?? level.
(Iā€™d fuck a good one real quick.)

$200ish will buy you a NIIIce coupla blades in your financial level.
and they soooo smooth cutting.
Learn to hold a knife and present BACKS of knuckles only.
NO TIPS>of pinkies.

But get a bottle of Single Malt. coupla bars of dark chocolate.
and settle in for a loooong read. plus many YouTube videoā€™s.
You are entering a different world compared to Western blades.

Anther little carbon NON stainless I play with. ā€œTojiro Japanese-Style Shirogami White Steel Aji-Kiri 105mm. Around $65 US on sale. plus freight from Japan.

6 in Petty $73.

Hammered 7in Santoku $125.
But I reckon their 7in smooth at $133 is a nicer blade??.
Here we go. Choices again.
and these just the cheaper models. My level.
wait till you see some of the real onesā€¦ (Youā€™ll crack a hard just perusing them (chuckle)

Have fun.

Then go back to the folders for a little wallet relief hey.

Waitā€¦ what?

Hmm, I like the way you think. Dark b33r instead of scotch for me, though. Iā€™ve been trying various types of ā€œhardā€ liquorā€¦ to me it all tastes like jet-A.

Unno, all I got are my trusty WĆ¼sthof sudoku blade and Choinese cleaver to keep me busy. No idea if itā€™s made of that origami metal or the other one. It just works.

Iā€™d probably pick up something made from Chinese Mystery Metal, with my luck.

And stiiiiiiiiiill waiting for my go,comma bladesā€¦

Post a picture of the complete knife, both sides.
Then post a picture(s) of the ā€œbackend of the knifeā€ you are referring to.

Yes, there is something you can do to bring out the pattern. Post those pictures so I can see where you are talking about & weā€™ll come up with a plan. :wink:

Sure thing mate, and thank you too! Your right, it is a very interesting subject with many variations. And, as you said; the skills of the maker are crucial in getting the best out of whichever steel is used. :+1:
Hope you are feeling better my friendā€¦. we missed you. :beer:

Thanks! Hereā€™s some photos. I put 1440 x 1080 embedded and then linked to full original resolution. Not sure how much this will help. That ā€œbald spotā€ I mentioned appears to be a flaw in the steel folding, whereby there are no Damascus lines to come through. My thought was that it might be interesting to see if the Damascus lines could be revealed on the back end of the knife, but my gut feeling is that it may be too much trouble than it is worth.


Original


Original


^ NOTE ā€” my embedded annotation is no longer valid, as it was later determined that this is not an applique after all. What appears to account for the abrupt end to the pattern is a lump of unfolded steel in the mix.

Whatā€™s interesting is that in one of the photos, with the lighting angle, you can see the unintentional ā€œgrooveā€ in the surface, revealing that folded steel was indeed used for the composition.

I honed the knife with a good quality honing steel. It brought the edge to true fairly well, but itā€™s clear the edge angle is rather steepā€¦ which means itā€™s not all that feasible to get a very sharp edge. Iā€™d need to grind it down. Iā€™ve never actually done that in a ā€œgood way,ā€ as in my naive days before I knew about honing, Iā€™d use those sharpeners that would mercilessly strip off material. As I understand it now, there are times when it is necessary like removing deep nicks and pitting from the edge first and then follow up with honing. Iā€™m aware that to do it right you need a number of different grades of sharpening stones. I plan to learn the technique eventually, as I have a couple of old candidate knives that are damaged.

Anyway, this cheap Damascus knife cuts OK. I was able to slice a tomato with it and didnā€™t squish the fruit. Itā€™s a rather heavy knife (which I expect reveals the low cost steel) and perhaps that weight helps with the cutting. Itā€™s only a little larger than my Calphalon Santoku, which is unquestionably a superior knife (itā€™s easy to paper slice). When looking at the blade edge with a magnifier, itā€™s so striking to see the edge angle differences. So I really wonā€™t be using this cheap knife for much cutlery work. Only a conversation piece, really.

Teacher.

Thankā€™s for above amendment of my ā€œdescription?
of different steel blends. Old age Maybe.
and as you see here.
LOTS of peoples know lots of things about ā€lots of thingsā€.
Just a case of bringing the interest out hey.

Apart from the current flu annoyance.
Iā€™ve had this for 30 yrs or more. (June 1990)
I ALWAYS come good again. eventually,
Itā€™s ALL in the drugs mate.
If they ever tested me for Opiates Iā€™d blow the top off the machine.
But b4 this electronic implant in my Spinal Chord in neck.
I was on 4 times as much.
Lived permanently in a floating cloud.
Very rarely came down, and when I did.
just wanted to get back up there quick.
It farkinā€™ hurt 24/7.
Anybody that knows any family or friends with ā€œchronic painā€
anywhere in body.
Get them to get in touch or read up on net. ā€œNEVROā€
Spinal implants.
THIS ONE. Actually works. with 85% of us.
You have several months of FREE (in Aust anyway) trials first.

MINE 100% NIL pain. around 94% of the time. and when it hic-cups. I just reset on a different cycle for a while.
Iā€™ve gone from a miserable, whinging, full of pain, grump.
to a (almost) normal. Happy. Smiling. Old fart.

Coupla things.
That blade will never be a fine slicer/cutter. Without lots of grinding/
NOT worth it.

Iā€™d take edge back about 1\4 in,and take remove the shoulder too.
with Stones/diamond plates.
and use as a heavy cutter.
Those Damascus lines are Hmmm.
That blade would have to taper from hilt to tip. to give them
In normal folded\layered steel. They going the wrong way.
Be very time consuming to layer that lot in the right way
for that pattern.
Any ā€œbringing outā€ (Thatā€™s available) can be done with acid dipping.

PS. You can not have solid blocks of steel showing
in ā€œfolded layers of metal. Sorry mate.

Yrs ago I played with forging Rail Spikes.
Layers of steel hammered into one etc.
Basically All I got was tired arms\shoulders.
Didnā€™t know enough about steel consistencyā€™s.
(too dumb yes)
Best I had were power saw blades and the aforementioned Rail spikes.
They made GREAT Axe heads.

Lightbringerā€¦

ā€œā€Macka17 wrote: Learn to hold a knife and present BACKS of knuckles only. NO TIPS>of pinkies.

Waitā€¦ what?ā€œā€
ā€”ā€”ā€”ā€”ā€”ā€”ā€”ā€”ā€”ā€”ā€”-

Cutting food. Read ā€¦. Read. (chuckle)

Hold ALL foods you cutting. with finger TIPS folded back.
ALL OF THEM. You wouldnā€™t be the first to tip the little one.
Just presenting first knuckle and flat backs of fingers for blade to slide up and down against.
Those things ARE sharp.

Holding.
If you hold the knife.in hand. Handle in last 3 pinkies (diddums)
Then thumb and first finger gripping top SIDES of blade.
You will find that a much better. controlling grip (to most)
is established. Especially for slicing. Try it.
Have fun hey.

Thanks for weighing in on this, Mack. I had a feeling it wasnā€™t much of a cause. I was actually tempted to compensate the seller a little for having given me a full refund, but given the sore lack of quality I wonā€™t do it. I canā€™t leave feedback, because of the refund. But this just goes to show you, the scam continues. This is junk ā€œDamascusā€ and heā€™s getting positive feedback for it. So very unethical. But thatā€™s the game of the swindlerā€”a fool and his money are soon parted. It keeps repeating and repeating. Some people need to learn the hard way, but sadly that means a swindler profits.

Yeah, Iā€™m not going to waste my time with this. I canā€™t even give it away, let alone sell it. Just wouldnā€™t be right. Anyway, itā€™ll be a good test knife for practicing sharpening.

@ xevious

Ok, I see where you are referring toā€¦. the end in front of the handle

Dip a Q-tip in some vinegar & rub it on the end part. See if that brings out the pattern. Keep it off the rest of the blade best as possible.

Let me know. I think that should do it. If notā€¦ weā€™ll go to plan B. :wink:
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Iā€™m sending you a PMā€¦ā€¦ :+1:

Take that bevel up around another 1\4 in. then grind that shoulder off. Making it even (ish) taper from cutting edge to back of blade
itā€™s solid enough that if you put a reasonable edge to it.
A good cleaver. chopper. Heavy cutting blade itā€™ll make.
Itā€™s long enuff, and heavy enuf to do so.
If NOT tip heavy. maybe take a slice off top centre to rear sect of spine
to balance it so.

My Mitchel Engineering (Meatworks commercial supplier here in AUS).
does some similar. Mine. a good. basic steel. Nicely TIP heavy, holds a good sharp edge. and chops through chuck bones like they not there.
And thick. Crusty Dark bread with grains. Like soft butter.

Cost me $11 AUD. now $17 del.
Cheap and nasty but very good 440c steel, (Donā€™t ever knock it)
It was a top steel for yrs. Still is. Depending who works it.
And professional meatworkers use their steel every day on carcasses
with no problem.

As the steel depends on heat treatment.
The ā€œcuttingā€ edges depend on loong experiences with the stones and steels for best angles. son in law was a pro boner for 40 yrs.
I used to do some boning yrs ago Just to get that experience,
as I was semi-Pro shooting for Rooā€™s and Buffā€™s in the top End.

Crocā€™s (shhhhhh) too. on the side. 6 to 7ft nose to tail got a UNSlitted skin a Grand each Cashā€¦ Handbag material. But soooo eay to slice through. as the pressure you had to use to separate skin from fat.
one slice. Value gone.
Shooting those Bā€™s was the best fun though.
Bang. Tween the eye triangle for the brain,
Then blast forward in tinny in dark with grapnels ready.
As the red eye closed and it disappeared in the dark
and the ballast stones they stored in belly took them straight down.

ALl blades. even $3 Chinese ā€œwhat the F is thatā€ things.
ARE good for something. Utilise it.

Hey Macka17, sorry to hear about your chronic pain woes. Sounds like things are much better now after that spinal implant. But man, must have been tough to get off those opioids. In USA we have a raging epidemic of people getting dangerously hooked on them.

Iā€™m sending Teacher the knife to keep (just minor compensation) so he can play with it and see about improving the edge. I just donā€™t have that talent (yetā€¦).

Not sure if thereā€™s any rule of thumb about weight, but this one weighs in at 11.75 oz, about 330 gm. The wood is quite decent for the price. Iā€™d have kept it if the blade edge angle was more shallow, so that it would be easier to achieve and maintain a nicely sharp edge.

TS TS25 :smiley:

Heā€™ll probably belt grind it down then reset a cutting angle.
That ā€œshoulderā€ has to go though.
Regarding the Poppyā€™s (chuckle)
Iā€™m NOT off them. Just reduced.
Still have a 25/5 Shoulder Fenpatch every 3 days.
$150 ea on open market apparentlyā€¦.
As if I would.
Plus I take a 5mg Targin every Morn.
or a 10mg if going to do some work.

Pre the implant I was on 50+ mg Targin every day. Plus the Fenpatch 25 Patch.
and I carry a card of Endone ā€œlolliesā€
for the extra sore times.

NOT off. Just reduced, but makes me humanā€¦.
After 30+ yrs, Iā€™d have to be a ā€œcontrolledā€ druggie.
But the specialists that control my input say NOT soā€¦
Who would know hey.

My pain gone 100% most of time.
Iā€™m not gonna whinge about anything.
Just thankful.

Yep, makes sense. Itā€™s on the way to himā€”he should have it by Friday, I expect.

Yikes, what a cocktail of meds and pain killers. Anyway, what matters most is that most of the pain is under control and rarely felt, so you can live your life! Just sorry youā€™re having to deal with these outrageous drug prices. Itā€™s criminalā€¦ and our government keeps letting us down. Present situation? Theyā€™re profiting even more with this administration. Thatā€™s cause people like ā€œthe turtleā€ are in bed with them.

Btw, I got that Damascus folder. You were right ā€” very sweet thing for the price! The action seems to be intentionally ā€œnotchyā€, that I at first thought was grit. But everything is machined well. Seems to be real Damascus type steel. Very, very clean pattern with nice randomness. The rose wood handles are gorgeous. Really canā€™t beat it.