[WTB] Led Lenser P3 AFS/P

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Agro
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[WTB] Led Lenser P3 AFS/P

If someone wants to part with this light I’d be glad to buy one in good condition.

Jerommel
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Oh, cute !

(edit: but insanely over priced as usual….)

Agro
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For a long while I wanted to see how good are the Led Lenser lenses really.
Now I have enough budget….but considering that there’s a fair chance I won’t like it I’m still not very happy with paying the full $40 and would rather have a used light.

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Been looking for one for ages too… Oops

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Agro
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Jerommel wrote:
Oh, cute !

(edit: but insanely over priced as usual….)


Yeah…$40 for a light with a plastic pill. Facepalm
Jerommel
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The prices are plain ridiculous.
Sorry, but it’s insane that a differently shaped piece of PMMA triples the price of a Chinese AAA zoomie.

hIKARInoob
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^^^ The optics is just really unique, and definitely different than regular zoomies. Of course, a lot of marketing etc etc, and the output is just laughable these days. Nevertheless I like Led Lenser; both appearance as well as the optic is very classic and timeless like a Maglite.

Jerommel
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hIKARInoob wrote:
^^^ The optics is just really unique, and definitely different than regular zoomies. Of course, a lot of marketing etc etc, and the output is just laughable these days. Nevertheless I like Led Lenser; both appearance as well as the optic is very classic and timeless like a Maglite.

Yeah, they definitely look good.

As for optic uniqueness, it’s just a TIR optic with a relatively large lens in the center.

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I’ve always been fairly indifferent towards optics, so maybe I fell for Led Lenser’s advertisement. The optic has properties of both a lens and a reflector. I thought they actually developed this themselves. I think it’s pretty cool what they did.

Enderman
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Jerommel wrote:

As for optic uniqueness, it’s just a TIR optic with a relatively large lens in the center.

No it’s not, it’s different because the focal point of the lens and reflector is farther back which allows the LED to be slid forward such that only the center lens collects light from the LED.
This is what allows their zoomies to have almost perfectly even flood and then also zoom to have a circular spot that uses the full area of the optic (for highest possible lux)

99% of TIR flashlights are fixed lens, and the TIR provides a mix of spot and flood just like a normal reflector.
The few focusing TIR flashlights that exist are either like the fenix flashlights (that only widen the beam, not narrow it) or cheap led lenser clones which are noticeably worse at focusing.

Jerommel
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It is just a TIR though, only they make it slide to zoom.
With the wide beam you basically only use the lens, close to the emitter (as you said).

There are rather similar TIRs on the market that could do the same, but usually they’re not narrow beam TIRs or have frosted surfaces (inside the LED cavity).

Jerommel
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hIKARInoob wrote:
I’ve always been fairly indifferent towards optics, so maybe I fell for Led Lenser’s advertisement. The optic has properties of both a lens and a reflector. I thought they actually developed this themselves. I think it’s pretty cool what they did.

I think the patent is rather for the ‘zoomability’ than for the optic itself.
Yeah, it is a pretty cool idea.
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Agro wrote:
Jerommel wrote:
Oh, cute !

(edit: but insanely over priced as usual….)


Yeah…$40 for a light with a plastic pill. Facepalm

Oof…

I did find some discontinued listings, like Conrad, who apparently had them for € 19 to € 25.
Too late now…

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P.S.

There are several comparable models:

(AFS = Advanced Focus System, P = Power, BM = Blue Moon)

P3 AFS P: This one delivers 75 lumens. Very nice, but dang I wish it had a lower ~5 lumen mode as well.
P3 AFS: This one delivers something like ~20 lumens. For a 1 mode light this is actually more practical than the Power version.
P3 (regular), or P3 BM : This is absolute junk. This one doesn’t use the Led Lenser optic, instead it’s a regular lens resulting in a terrible beam. Led is also terrible. It’s called Blue Moon, because the circumference of the beam is blue in colour.

So definitely go for the P3 AFS, or the P3 AFS P.

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Conrad probably had the P3 AFS (without P) version)
Both 75 and 20 Lumens are pathetic outputs for the price i.m.h.o.

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Jerommel wrote:
Conrad probably had the P3 AFS (without P) version) Both 75 and 20 Lumens are pathetic outputs for the price i.m.h.o.

I believe Led Lenser is like Surefire and Maglite; they have their own market so to speak. Furthermore, the P3 models are fairly old models as well. I’d say a proper AAA light puts out a maximum of 120 lumens. This is visually comparable to 75 lumens. But yeah, it’s not about the latest and greatest when it comes to Led Lenser.

My chain key light is still the original Nitecore Tube. Very low output and fairly bad tint, but it really fulfills my needs… I think this is also how you should approach Led Lenser models. They produce “enough” light.

P.S. Nice seeing you again Jerommel! Beer

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It’s true, they are old models.

And thanks, likewise ! Thumbs Up

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Jerommel wrote:
It is just a TIR though, only they make it slide to zoom.

The point is that you can’t get a TIR like it anywhere else.
Even the coast flashlights that have very similar technology can only partially zoom into a spot.

The only other flashlights that can switch between smooth flood and tight spot are pure lens flashlights, which lose a ton of efficiency when zoomed in.

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Enderman wrote:
Jerommel wrote:
It is just a TIR though, only they make it slide to zoom.
The point is that you can't get a TIR like it anywhere else. Even the coast flashlights that have very similar technology can only partially zoom into a spot.
I thought Coast used the same Led Lenser technology. Or basically Coast ≈ Led Lenser. No?
Jerommel
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Enderman wrote:
Jerommel wrote:
It is just a TIR though, only they make it slide to zoom.

The point is that you can’t get a TIR like it anywhere else.
Even the coast flashlights that have very similar technology can only partially zoom into a spot.

The only other flashlights that can switch between smooth flood and tight spot are pure lens flashlights, which lose a ton of efficiency when zoomed in.


Yes, the benefit of a TIR is obvious.
I have 2 fake Led lensers, one without brand and a Pop lite.
The latter wasn’t even that cheap..
But it had the problem of not enough head travel.
So i wasn’t able to get to full flood nor to full focus…
And as you may know, even the real Led Lensers are not ideal (ringy) in between full focus and full flood..
So it was a disappointing light.
The other one, which was only 10 bucks, is much better.

(like many of my lights, they’re both taken apart to be modded… some day…)

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There is another thing you can do though.

You can take a fixed reflector light and put a zoomable lens inside it (somehow).

So when you want flood, you bring the lens closer to the LED, which will use the light that would otherwise be reflected by the reflector, and act like a zoomed out zoomie.
For throw, you move the lens forward so it focuses the light that would otherwise be spill.

I’ve seen this on this forum somewhere, can’t remember where though, but likely in Argo’s zoomie thread.

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Jerommel wrote:
There is another thing you can do though.

You can take a fixed reflector light and put a zoomable lens inside it (somehow).

So when you want flood, you bring the lens closer to the LED, which will use the light that would otherwise be reflected by the reflector, and act like a zoomed out zoomie.
For throw, you move the lens forward so it focuses the light that would otherwise be spill.

I’ve seen this on this forum somewhere, can’t remember where though, but likely in Argo’s zoomie thread.


DMM has done a non-zooming light like that.”
Enderman
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hIKARInoob wrote:

Enderman wrote:
Jerommel wrote:
It is just a TIR though, only they make it slide to zoom.
The point is that you can’t get a TIR like it anywhere else. Even the coast flashlights that have very similar technology can only partially zoom into a spot.
I thought Coast used the same Led Lenser technology. Or basically Coast ≈ Led Lenser. No?

No, that’s what I orignially though, but take a look at the tests and reviews of those flashlights, when you focus them you get something that looks like this:

Not a 100% spot like with led lenser.

The flood mode is basically the same though, even brightness with an outer ring.

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Jerommel wrote:

Yes, the benefit of a TIR is obvious.
I have 2 fake Led lensers, one without brand and a Pop lite.
The latter wasn’t even that cheap..
But it had the problem of not enough head travel.
So i wasn’t able to get to full flood nor to full focus…
And as you may know, even the real Led Lensers are not ideal (ringy) in between full focus and full flood..
So it was a disappointing light.
The other one, which was only 10 bucks, is much better.

(like many of my lights, they’re both taken apart to be modded… some day…)


They’re not really meant to be used in between flood or spot modes, but depends on the model there may be more or fewer rings.
It’s not bad actually, on pretty much all lights you can unfocus it enough to give a larger spot with no visible rings or spill but a lot more area than fully focused.
I think I’ve used about 7 different Led Lensers so far.
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Enderman wrote:
hIKARInoob wrote:

Enderman wrote:
Jerommel wrote:
It is just a TIR though, only they make it slide to zoom.
The point is that you can’t get a TIR like it anywhere else. Even the coast flashlights that have very similar technology can only partially zoom into a spot.
I thought Coast used the same Led Lenser technology. Or basically Coast ≈ Led Lenser. No?

No, that’s what I orignially though, but take a look at the tests and reviews of those flashlights, when you focus them you get something that looks like this:

Not a 100% spot like with led lenser.

The flood mode is basically the same though, even brightness with an outer ring.


This is correct.

LED Lensers use a lighthouse style 2-element fresnel lens. Essentially, it’s a one-piece moulded TIR lens with a small aspheric lens in the center. Unlike a non-zooming TIR, the TIR in an LED Lenser has a large pocket on the underside that is big enough to encompass the entire LED. Larger LED Lensers go a step further by mounting a small star on a post. The opening in the underside of the TIR surrounds the post.

In a conventional aspheric lens flashlight, most of the light hits the bottom side of the lens in flood mode. But in spot mode, 50% or more of the emission cone from the LED is absorbed into the sides of the bezel and wasted. This is why lumens drop dramatically when you cycle a cheap aspheric zoomie.

In a zooming TIR light, the trick is that the inside of the optic fully surrounds the emission cone from the LED in ALL bezel zoom positions. Result is little or no lumen loss when cycling from spot to flood. Note that this doesn’t increase throw compared to an aspheric, but the hotspot may be wider with the same throw.

The 2 elements of this style of TIR optic are the center aspheric lens and the side TIR lens. In LED Lensers, both elements have the same focal length. This gives maximum throw with little spill in spot mode. In most LED Lenser clones the designers have purposely chosen different focal points for each element. The result is a wide even flood beam (just like an LED Lenser), but the spot beam looks more like a conventional reflector light with both spot and spill. The downside of this arrangement is the spot beam has considerably less throw than if both elements had same focal length.

Making these lenses seems a bit of an art form. The lenses in the more recent models of LED Lenser like the MT10 are much, MUCH better than the lenses from 5-year-old model LED Lensers even though the method of operation is the same.

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If they have the same focal length and the aspheric is large, why is the spot round rather than round overlaid with square?

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Agro wrote:
If they have the same focal length and the aspheric is large, why is the spot round rather than round overlaid with square?

Good point. Actually I think they do offset the focal points very slightly. Just enough to blur the spot for a better looking spot beam. But not enough to lose half the output in a spill pattern like on a Coast light.

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Agro wrote:
If they have the same focal length and the aspheric is large, why is the spot round rather than round overlaid with square?

Firelight2 wrote:

Good point. Actually I think they do offset the focal points very slightly. Just enough to blur the spot for a better looking spot beam. But not enough to lose half the output in a spill pattern like on a Coast light.

It’s because the non-lens part of the TIR acts like a reflector.
And as me and easyb discussed (argued) in a post long ago, the image of the LED is rotated depending on which part of the reflector is reflecting it.

(He was right, I was wrong)
That’s the reason reflector flashlights have circular spots.

The total sum of the rotated die projections is a circle.
If you cover the outer part of the TIR, the lens still projects a square die image, as expected.

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So the sqare spot is there but there’s so much reflected light that the beam nevertheless appears round, right?

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Agro wrote:
So the sqare spot is there but there’s so much reflected light that the beam nevertheless appears round, right?

Yeah, all the outer light makes the square almost invisible.
You can still kinda see it, depending on how the focus is.
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I see, thanks for the explanation.

There is still one thing that I don’t understand.
How does P3 AFS/P zoom without putting the LED on a pole?

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