Tesla's "Secret" Battery

109 posts / 0 new
Last post

Pages

SubLGT
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 3 hours ago
Joined: 12/08/2014 - 12:42
Posts: 240
Location: Idaho, USA
Tesla's "Secret" Battery

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-tesla-batteries-exclusive/exclu...

A few excerpts:

Quote:
…Tesla Inc plans to introduce a new low-cost, long-life battery in its Model 3 sedan in China later this year or early next that it expects will bring the cost of electric vehicles in line with gasoline models, and allow EV batteries to have second and third lives in the electric power grid…

…The new “million mile” battery at the center of Tesla’s strategy was jointly developed with China’s Contemporary Amperex Technology Ltd (CATL)… and deploys technology developed by Tesla in collaboration with a team of academic battery experts recruited by Musk, three people familiar with the effort said…

…Tesla’s new batteries will rely on innovations such as low-cobalt and cobalt-free battery chemistries, and the use of chemical additives, materials and coatings that will reduce internal stress and enable batteries to store more energy for longer periods, sources said.

Tesla also plans to implement new high-speed, heavily automated battery manufacturing processes designed to reduce labor costs and increase production in massive “terafactories” about 30 times the size of the company’s sprawling Nevada “gigafactory” — a strategy telegraphed in late April to analysts by Musk….

…CATL also has developed a simpler and less expensive way of packaging battery cells, called cell-to-pack, that eliminates the middle step of bundling cells. Tesla is expected to use the technology to help reduce battery weight and cost.

The sources said CATL also plans to supply Tesla in China next year with an improved long-life nickel-manganese-cobalt (NMC) battery whose cathode is 50% nickel and only 20% cobalt….

…A number of the technical advances made by Tesla and CATL in battery chemistry and design originated at a small research lab at Dalhousie University in Halifax, Nova Scotia. The lab has been run since 1996 by Jeff Dahn, a pioneer in the development of lithium-ion batteries for electric vehicles and grid storage.

Among the critical contributions from Dahn’s lab: Chemical additives and nano-engineered materials to make lithium-ion batteries tougher and more resistant to bruising from stress such as rapid charging, thus extending their life….

“We’ve got to really make sure we get a very steep ramp in battery production and continue to improve the cost per kilowatt-hour of the batteries — this is very fundamental and extremely difficult,” Musk told investors in January. “We’ve got to scale battery production to crazy levels that people cannot even fathom today.”

Edited by: SubLGT on 05/14/2020 - 15:01
Sirstinky
Offline
Last seen: 32 min 19 sec ago
Joined: 11/02/2018 - 17:07
Posts: 529
Location: Vancouver, WA

Well, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again… electric is the future. Any time I ride in an electric car I’m reminded that internal combustion, while definitely relevant (easy and cheap) and practical, will not be the focus of great innovation in the long term. We have the motive power with brushless motors that have gotten smaller, lighter and simpler to make and virtually maintenance free, speed controllers and such, but the thing lacking is the batteries/storage capacity. We still need a huge, expensive, heavy battery with lots of cells to move an electric car and maintain the same practicality of a internal combustion engine vehicle. In the end, a $60,000+ Tesla 3 still can’t compete with the practicality and range of a $15,000 sedan. Maybe the new batteries will help bridge the gap?

roostre
Offline
Last seen: 19 min 38 sec ago
Joined: 03/09/2020 - 23:37
Posts: 44
Location: Pac. NW

Sirstinky wrote:
... electric is the future...

Hopefully there will be an electric future.

I find Elon Musk to be both fascinating and strange but while we await his "secret battery"; no matter what you think of Michael Moore, his newest 100 minute long documentary "Planet of the Humans" is entertaining and examines why we are still addicted to fossil fuels:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk11vI-7czE

How many flashlights does a "real man" need?

None, real men are not afraid of the dark.

alpg88
Offline
Last seen: 20 min 42 sec ago
Joined: 10/11/2013 - 12:35
Posts: 815
Location: usa

electricity is the future, nikola tesla believed it over 100 years ago.

as far as magic batteries, ceo of dyson claimed his v10 model vacuum battery lifespan will be more than 10 years, well , i have v10 for 2 years and i’m on my 3rd battery

Lexel
Lexel's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 13 hours ago
Joined: 11/01/2016 - 08:00
Posts: 5859
Location: Germany

Just think about the old not really redundant US power grit and then 20 Million 100kW fast charging car charging ports
just do the math and calculate how many wind, solar, coal or nuclear power plants you have to build for that in addition to the already existing
centralized power producers come with a lot of conduction losses making them less efficient and more CO2 emission or nuclear waste

It sounds odd but the only option in more remote locations would be a wind turbine right next to the car charging on a spot where the power grit is already strong enough to handle power overcapacity or power shortage
But with the locals don’t want to see wind or solar parks or new high voltage pylons ruin their neighborhood it’s hard to get any of those come reality fast

mgracia85
mgracia85's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 37 min ago
Joined: 12/01/2017 - 18:35
Posts: 259
Location: East Texas
roostre wrote:

Sirstinky wrote:
… electric is the future…

Hopefully there will be an electric future.


I find Elon Musk to be both fascinating and strange but while we await his “secret battery”; no matter what you think of Michael Moore, his newest 100 minute long documentary “Planet of the Humans” is entertaining and examines why we are still addicted to fossil fuels:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk11vI-7czE

Although I do believe he is very smart, I think he is more of a con man than innovator.

I love my wife’s toy poodle

JaredM
JaredM's picture
Offline
Last seen: 21 hours 5 min ago
Joined: 10/31/2011 - 13:33
Posts: 927
Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

I’m very confused as to why there aren’t more IC range extended EVs [[different than traditional hybrids where the IC mechanically drives the wheels and runs at variable loads and speeds]] on the market. Think of a small steady-state (clean and ultra-efficient, relatively) generator that only kicks on when the pack reaches 30% or perhaps the driver elects a long-distance driving mode. Most people drive far, far less than 50 miles a day, but just the once a month 400 mile drive or weekend mountain retreat is enough to “range-anxiety” many buyers out of the purchase of say a 100mile range EV.

In a design with an IC generator / range-extender, packs can be much, much smaller and cheaper. More importantly, the need for “supercharging” virtually goes away since you can just add gasoline/ethanol/diesel and keep going on those less common long trips. This consequently means that the most dangerous and strenuous part of the EV cycle (fast-charging) is minimized. Another way to think about this is that your creating the required expanded ‘electrical infrastructure’ built into the EVs, 1:1.

Electricity infrastructure and battery chemistry is going to need a healthy number of years to properly support pure EVs as mainstream. Battery recycling is another large issue that we should really consider giving time to mature before going all in with EVs.

Couchmaster
Offline
Last seen: 5 hours 27 min ago
Joined: 05/04/2016 - 17:11
Posts: 294
Location: USA

Like many here, given Teslas undeservedly high stock price, we have been waiting for this announcement. Clearly they’ve been touting something special to the big brokerage houses for some time. Increased range and being able to hotswap out battery packs at service stations would be EV game changers when it occurs.

Lightbringer
Lightbringer's picture
Online
Last seen: 2 min 56 sec ago
Joined: 08/30/2016 - 14:12
Posts: 11119
Location: nyc

If you take a look at even “residential” areas of NYC (or any city bigger’n a hamlet), you’ll see there’s nowhere to actually charge an EV, unless you have unfettered access to a driveway and/or garage.

Even with a shared driveway (property lines runs down the middle; pure idiocy), I’m the only one lucky guy on the block whose neighbor would “rather not” use the driveway to keep a car.

When I needed to run a charger/conditioner to my car’s battery, I had to run the big honkin’ orange extension-cord across the sidewalk for the better part of the day (and night) to still only get to maybe 80%. Can you spell “lawsuit”? Some idiot who trips over his own feet could claim he tripped on the cord and sue me out of existence.

And forget about all those who live in condos, apartments, etc.

Might as well tell all those people they’re just not allowed to own cars, period, if EVs become “the future”.

09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0

Sirstinky
Offline
Last seen: 32 min 19 sec ago
Joined: 11/02/2018 - 17:07
Posts: 529
Location: Vancouver, WA

They do have plug-in hybrids and I think those are the real solution to pure electric for now or until we find a way to make portable fusion generators. A small, efficient diesel or gas engine or flex fuel like E85 or E100, LPG etc. with a electric motor. As Lexel said, there’s no way we can ever get away from fossil fuels without innovation in alternative energy.

Sirstinky
Offline
Last seen: 32 min 19 sec ago
Joined: 11/02/2018 - 17:07
Posts: 529
Location: Vancouver, WA

Lightbringer wrote:
If you take a look at even “residential” areas of NYC (or any city bigger’n a hamlet), you’ll see there’s nowhere to actually charge an EV, unless you have unfettered access to a driveway and/or garage.

Even with a shared driveway (property lines runs down the middle; pure idiocy), I’m the only one lucky guy on the block whose neighbor would “rather not” use the driveway to keep a car.

When I needed to run a charger/conditioner to my car’s battery, I had to run the big honkin’ orange extension-cord across the sidewalk for the better part of the day (and night) to still only get to maybe 80%. Can you spell “lawsuit”? Some idiot who trips over his own feet could claim he tripped on the cord and sue me out of existence.

And forget about all those who live in condos, apartments, etc.

Might as well tell all those people they’re just not allowed to own cars, period, if EVs become “the future”.

There are some localities that seem like they dont want you to own a car. They either tax you to death on it with registration fees, inspections, or charge high insurance. Since the feds took away the tax credit for buying an EV, there’s not much incentive to owning one other than…quiet, no engine maintenance (oil changes, coolant, filters, etc), cheap to refill (about $6 for a full charge at night), instant startup, and feeling good you’re (somewhat) reducing your carbon footprint. Downsides? Slow charging (unless you install a 240 or 408 volt service in your house), about 1/2 to 1/3 the range of a gas/diesel car, more expensive to buy (upwards of $10,000 to $15,000 or more), use the heater amd ac sparingly, expensive battery packs when they wear out. Regen brakes and software updates along with better batteries helps, but EVs are still a ways off from beating dinosaur burners.

EasyB
Offline
Last seen: 21 min 29 sec ago
Joined: 03/09/2016 - 15:24
Posts: 1968
Location: Ohio

JaredM wrote:
I’m very confused as to why there aren’t more IC range extended EVs [[different than traditional hybrids where the IC mechanically drives the wheels and runs at variable loads and speeds]] on the market. Think of a small steady-state (clean and ultra-efficient, relatively) generator that only kicks on when the pack reaches 30% or perhaps the driver elects a long-distance driving mode. Most people drive far, far less than 50 miles a day, but just the once a month 400 mile drive or weekend mountain retreat is enough to “range-anxiety” many buyers out of the purchase of say a 100mile range EV.

In a design with an IC generator / range-extender, packs can be much, much smaller and cheaper. More importantly, the need for “supercharging” virtually goes away since you can just add gasoline/ethanol/diesel and keep going on those less common long trips. This consequently means that the most dangerous and strenuous part of the EV cycle (fast-charging) is minimized. Another way to think about this is that your creating the required expanded ‘electrical infrastructure’ built into the EVs, 1:1.

Electricity infrastructure and battery chemistry is going to need a healthy number of years to properly support pure EVs as mainstream. Battery recycling is another large issue that we should really consider giving time to mature before going all in with EVs.

I agree with this. An example is the Chevy Volt, which they discontinued.

Like you say the battery pack could be much smaller (so much less resources needed per car) than a pure EV’s while still using purely electric to power ~90% of our trips. Gas would only be used for longer trips. This seems like it would go a long way towards reducing gas consumption and would be a lot cheaper in terms of battery costs than pure EVs.

JaredM
JaredM's picture
Offline
Last seen: 21 hours 5 min ago
Joined: 10/31/2011 - 13:33
Posts: 927
Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Sirstinky wrote:
They do have plug-in hybrids and I think those are the real solution to pure electric for now or until we find a way to make portable fusion generators. A small, efficient diesel or gas engine or flex fuel like E85 or E100, LPG etc. with a electric motor. As Lexel said, there’s no way we can ever get away from fossil fuels without innovation in alternative energy.

I know about traditional plug-in hybrids and agree they are the best option currently on the market for the mainstream consumer. The part that I don’t understand is why auto-manufactures still use a complex and difficult-to-design hybrid drive-train. The only thing that should be driving the wheels is electric motors. When the IC starts up, it’s simply turning a generator that’s directly charging the pack and/or powering the motor>>wheels. Total thermal efficiency for the steady-state genset could be as high as 45%. Comparing that to ~25% efficiency of a typical variable load IC engine/transmission powering the wheels mechanically is enough to garner attention. But to think of the packaging freedom that could result from not having a mechanical driveline really takes it to another level..

JaredM
JaredM's picture
Offline
Last seen: 21 hours 5 min ago
Joined: 10/31/2011 - 13:33
Posts: 927
Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

EasyB wrote:

I agree with this. An example is the Chevy Volt, which they discontinued.

Like you say the battery pack could be much smaller (so much less resources needed per car) than a pure EV’s while still using purely electric to power ~90% of our trips. Gas would only be used for longer trips. This seems like it would go a long way towards reducing gas consumption and would be a lot cheaper in terms of battery costs than pure EVs.

I just think of how clean a steady-state, lean-mixture, SPCCI/HCCI petrol engine could run. Then to consider alt fuels like ethanol or LPG and I can only imagine figures flirting with 100g CO2 / mile

iamlucky13
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 24 min ago
Joined: 06/22/2018 - 09:18
Posts: 754
Location: USA

Musk thrives on exaggeration and unachievable expectations. His fanfare over the Mars Colonial Transporter was followed up by quietly downscaling and significantly revising the design, in contradiction with the way he implied the design was nearly complete. Several years later, they’ve now reached the developmental prototype stage, where they’re batting 1 for 4 at even passing ground tests. Hyperloop, meanwhile, is now looking like it might be better compared to the space ladder or the Moller Skycar.

But Musk does also usually have substance behind the hyperbole. SpaceX did ultimately develop a disruptively low cost rocket, and improved it significantly beyond the original design specifications, while also making it resuable. Tesla has the leading electric car on the market, bordering on profitable sales volumes despite the fact that their production cost appears to be significantly higher than originally planned.

I’m sure there is something to this battery announcement, too. Reading between the lines, I get the sense it is more related to cycle life and production cost than capacity. Regardless, there’s a lot of money flowing into battery R&D over the last few years, so we should expect at least gradual improvements.

pommie
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 23 min ago
Joined: 08/28/2013 - 03:56
Posts: 964
Location: Corio, Victoria, Australia

Lexel wrote:
Just think about the old not really redundant US power grit and then 20 Million 100kW fast charging car charging ports
just do the math and calculate how many wind, solar, coal or nuclear power plants you have to build for that in addition to the already existing
centralized power producers come with a lot of conduction losses making them less efficient and more CO2 emission or nuclear waste

It sounds odd but the only option in more remote locations would be a wind turbine right next to the car charging on a spot where the power grit is already strong enough to handle power overcapacity or power shortage
But with the locals don’t want to see wind or solar parks or new high voltage pylons ruin their neighborhood it’s hard to get any of those come reality fast


There are 168,000 gas stations in the USA, with about 10 pumps per station, so you have 1,680,000 refueling points, so what you are saying is that ev’s will need 12 times the amount of refueling points, even though most charging will be done at home/work ?

As far as the grid is concerned have you any idea how much electric power is consumed by refineries, how much oil is consumed just getting that gas to you (boats/trucks etc) all that will stop Cool

As far as people not wanting things “in their back yard” that is always the case, try to build a new coal fired power plant or a nuclear one, no one wants those any where near them, but they will happily use the power generated in someone else’s back yard.

Please look around the net and get the facts before posting Grad

Cheers David

Nothing to see here folks, move along...

Lightbringer
Lightbringer's picture
Online
Last seen: 2 min 56 sec ago
Joined: 08/30/2016 - 14:12
Posts: 11119
Location: nyc

All around the US, electric grids are already strained. A heat wave brings about exploding transformers as ACs increase peak usage well beyond their rather conservative ratings.

I can imagine a spike in EV usage and charging bringing the grid to its knees.

Oh, and I just love the idea of using EVs as local batteries to supplement the grid. Put that many more cycles on the EVs’ batteries… No thanks.

09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0

kennybobby
kennybobby's picture
Offline
Last seen: 22 min 4 sec ago
Joined: 05/10/2017 - 09:13
Posts: 250
Location: huntspatch, alabama
JaredM wrote:
Sirstinky wrote:
They do have plug-in hybrids and I think those are the real solution to pure electric for now or until we find a way to make portable fusion generators. A small, efficient diesel or gas engine or flex fuel like E85 or E100, LPG etc. with a electric motor. .

.. The part that I don’t understand is why auto-manufactures still use a complex and difficult-to-design hybrid drive-train. The only thing that should be driving the wheels is electric motors. When the IC starts up, it’s simply turning a generator that’s directly charging the pack and/or powering the motor>>wheels. ..

We get this question all the time, nearly every week somebody (usually not an EV driver) comes up with this “range extender” idea on the EV forums. The problem is that you can’t charge a battery while it is being used to drive the car—the duty cycle of driving an EV with both motoring and regen modes, results in varying voltage and currents in and out of the pack.

Imagine the complexity of a Charger that would be required to compensate in real time for these currents; as it is now no chargers exist that will sink current, they expect to provide either a constant current or a constant voltage for a lithium ion battery pack. (CC/CV)

The conversion losses would be huge: convert fuel to run an IC engine and turn a loaded generator, then to extract electrical power from generator, rectify the generator output (AC) to create a high voltage DC buss with PFC, chop this DC thru boost transformers and rectify to create the DC voltage and current to recharge the pack. Now add some non-existent protection control stage to account for the acceleration and deceleration of the driver’s foot.

That is why the hybrids have both electric and IC engines, it is an easier cat to skin.

Most commutes are 50 miles or less, the newer EVs have 100 miles or more of range. You don’t need a range extender for commuting, but for the several times a year when you need to make a long trip, then go rent a car. Keeps it all simple.

Favorite Song = "Flashlight" (BLF of course, with a righteous bass)
https://youtu.be/gCTGMIXaD64

Exercise and Training:
My typical training routine: https://youtu.be/_aVASp9raMk
Morning Workout: https://youtu.be/ZEA_3yXG570

Remember Don't Do Drugs...
without me: https://youtu.be/oVKtxHTcnho

Sirstinky
Offline
Last seen: 32 min 19 sec ago
Joined: 11/02/2018 - 17:07
Posts: 529
Location: Vancouver, WA
JaredM wrote:
Sirstinky wrote:
They do have plug-in hybrids and I think those are the real solution to pure electric for now or until we find a way to make portable fusion generators. A small, efficient diesel or gas engine or flex fuel like E85 or E100, LPG etc. with a electric motor. As Lexel said, there’s no way we can ever get away from fossil fuels without innovation in alternative energy.

I know about traditional plug-in hybrids and agree they are the best option currently on the market for the mainstream consumer. The part that I don’t understand is why auto-manufactures still use a complex and difficult-to-design hybrid drive-train. The only thing that should be driving the wheels is electric motors. When the IC starts up, it’s simply turning a generator that’s directly charging the pack and/or powering the motor>>wheels. Total thermal efficiency for the steady-state genset could be as high as 45%. Comparing that to ~25% efficiency of a typical variable load IC engine/transmission powering the wheels mechanically is enough to garner attention. But to think of the packaging freedom that could result from not having a mechanical driveline really takes it to another level..

It’s true that power is lost through mechanical drivetrains. This is why electric motors are so efficient-direct drive, no transmission, clutch, torque converters or solenoids and valves to actuate. Also no drive shaft. Not to mention the power delivery of an electric motor (100% power available immediately). As far as a hybrid drive train, the best ones are a diesel electric configuration. For those to be most efficient, they need to be run at a constant speed.

Muto
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 13 min ago
Joined: 09/04/2012 - 16:42
Posts: 2360
Location: Southeast, PA
kennybobby wrote:
JaredM wrote:
Sirstinky wrote:
They do have plug-in hybrids and I think those are the real solution to pure electric for now or until we find a way to make portable fusion generators. A small, efficient diesel or gas engine or flex fuel like E85 or E100, LPG etc. with a electric motor. .

.. The part that I don’t understand is why auto-manufactures still use a complex and difficult-to-design hybrid drive-train. The only thing that should be driving the wheels is electric motors. When the IC starts up, it’s simply turning a generator that’s directly charging the pack and/or powering the motor>>wheels. ..

We get this question all the time, nearly every week somebody (usually not an EV driver) comes up with this “range extender” idea on the EV forums. The problem is that you can’t charge a battery while it is being used to drive the car—the duty cycle of driving an EV with both motoring and regen modes, results in varying voltage and currents in and out of the pack.

Imagine the complexity of a Charger that would be required to compensate in real time for these currents; as it is now no chargers exist that will sink current, they expect to provide either a constant current or a constant voltage for a lithium ion battery pack. (CC/CV)

The conversion losses would be huge: convert fuel to run an IC engine and turn a loaded generator, then to extract electrical power from generator, rectify the generator output (AC) to create a high voltage DC buss with PFC, chop this DC thru boost transformers and rectify to create the DC voltage and current to recharge the pack. Now add some non-existent protection control stage to account for the acceleration and deceleration of the driver’s foot.

That is why the hybrids have both electric and IC engines, it is an easier cat to skin.

Most commutes are 50 miles or less, the newer EVs have 100 miles or more of range. You don’t need a range extender for commuting, but for the several times a year when you need to make a long trip, then go rent a car. Keeps it all simple.

I think understand your logic and it sounds right.
Could the car not have 2 separate packs though?
One to power the car now while it is in motion and another that is powered by the IC when range or excessive current demands are obvious (heat, AC, Mountains) so the reserve pack is always topped up, the packs would alternate usage as needed. Then you do not need fancy charging logic?
Still have the home charging deal, just talking about in motion charging usage with the dual pack.
Just a thought from a dummy.

“History doesn’t repeat itself, but it sometimes rhymes,” Mark Twain

..
Well I don’t know if I’m coming or going
If it’s them or me
Oh, but one things for certain
Willie Nelson only smokes the killer weed

After the Apocalypse there will be only 2 things left alive, Cockroaches and Keith Richards

kennybobby
kennybobby's picture
Offline
Last seen: 22 min 4 sec ago
Joined: 05/10/2017 - 09:13
Posts: 250
Location: huntspatch, alabama

The only EV with unlimited driving range is Tesla, due to (1) their network of fast supercharging stations and (2) the thermal control system of their packs. Nobody else even comes close. Look up their 0-60 times compared with exotic supercars.

Favorite Song = "Flashlight" (BLF of course, with a righteous bass)
https://youtu.be/gCTGMIXaD64

Exercise and Training:
My typical training routine: https://youtu.be/_aVASp9raMk
Morning Workout: https://youtu.be/ZEA_3yXG570

Remember Don't Do Drugs...
without me: https://youtu.be/oVKtxHTcnho

Scallywag
Scallywag's picture
Offline
Last seen: 33 min 22 sec ago
Joined: 01/11/2018 - 22:23
Posts: 1018
Location: Ohio, United States

JaredM wrote:
I know about traditional plug-in hybrids and agree they are the best option currently on the market for the mainstream consumer. The part that I don’t understand is why auto-manufactures still use a complex and difficult-to-design hybrid drive-train. The only thing that should be driving the wheels is electric motors. When the IC starts up, it’s simply turning a generator that’s directly charging the pack and/or powering the motor>>wheels. Total thermal efficiency for the steady-state genset could be as high as 45%. Comparing that to ~25% efficiency of a typical variable load IC engine/transmission powering the wheels mechanically is enough to garner attention. But to think of the packaging freedom that could result from not having a mechanical driveline really takes it to another level..

The Prius Prime does Toyota’s complex, but also kind of simple Power Split Device transaxle. And the latest Prius engine is over 40% efficient.
I think one of the issues with the steady-state-genset methodology is on-demand power and charge/discharge efficiency. Yes the generator/motor is efficient either way, but charging energy into a battery pack and getting it back out has a bunch of loss. The next issue is hard driving – If the genset is designed only to run at optimal efficiency, you’re probably looking at something like 20 horsepower (a guess based on optimal Prius engine range). If your driver is on the freeway driving a bit aggressive, or doing other not-recommended activities like towing (you should see what has been towed by a Prius…), that could be continually exceeded until the pack was depleted. With Prius Prime, when in Hybrid mode, the engine responds to demand and then takes a % off the top for charging – generally, depending on battery state of charge and current power demand level. If the pack’s low enough it won’t add any electric boost, it will only take take take… a bit higher and it will allow net 0 charging for the highest power demands, but still not give any charge up… and higher yet it will allow some electric boost to the drivetrain.

There’s been some other very interesting points about the viability of home charging for EVs/plug-in hybrids. Super valid! Not everywhere is suburbs. Yes, this model works very well for traditional American suburban living, but fails most elsewhere. Rural electricity grids may not be up to handling a fast charger at every location – and the same goes for stressed, dense urban grids. Even more for urban locations, is Space and Charger Access (as has been mentioned already in this thread). Almost everyone in a condo or apartment will not have charger access. The last time I went to some EV company’s website (I’m not even sure if it was Tesla or another), they had a survey that included questions about if you owned your home and if you had a garage (and detached/attached) to try to determine if EVs were “right” for you, in addition to other questions about daily miles driven.

A last point: I see a lot of arguments online about cost of ownership and cost of entry for EVs, but I rarely actually see “home charger installation” mentioned. If I fully drain the range on my hypothetical Tesla, how do I charge that overnight if I don’t have some kind of fast charger installed? A standard outlet/circuit in US residential is 120VAC*/15A, so 1800W. Wouldn’t the “base” of ~65kWh for a model S take 36 hours to charge that way? Okay, so you install a second Dryer outlet… pay the electrician… you get 240/30. That’s still a nine hour charge, and I’m assuming there’s no charging losses here. Or let’s say the 54kWh pack, current lowest for a model 3 (at least that I saw on Wikipedia). Still 30 hours for 120/15 and a work-night possible 7.5 for 240/30.

EDC Rotation: ZL SC62(w) | Jaxman E2L XP-G2 5A | Purple S2+ XPL-HI U6-3A | D4 w/ Luxeon V | RRT-01 | Purple FW3A, 4000K SST20
EagTac D25C Ti | DQG Slim AA Ti | Jaxman E3 | UF-T1 by CRX | Nitecore EX11.2
L6 XHP70.2 P2 4000K FET+7135 | Jaxman M8 | MF02 | Jaxman Z1 CULNM1.TG | Blue S2+ w/ ML Special
Unfinished: Supfire M6 3xXHP50.2, Sofirn C8F, Sofirn SP70
Others: Nitecore EC23 | Nebo Twyst | Streamlight ProTac 1AA | TerraLux LightStar 100

JaredM
JaredM's picture
Offline
Last seen: 21 hours 5 min ago
Joined: 10/31/2011 - 13:33
Posts: 927
Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

I don’t have time to fully respond at the moment but a few half baked thoughts here. First off, I don’t think I agree with the “you can’t charge while pulling a variable load from a battery” statement. I’ve worked in battery research and development for many years now and definitely have different experience. Next, I get a sense that there are Tesla fans among us. While it’s fine, the bias in this discussion won’t get us far. In terms of the complexity to convert an AC generator to DC.. I say why are we not using a DC generator in the first place? I think an AC generator example creates a more complicated than necessary image of the system. I don’t agree either that renting a car every weekend is the most cost effective, practical, nor simple solution to having car that meets all of our needs.

Regarding the Prius system and IC efficiency, realize that the 40% thermal efficiency is a peak value under ideal load/rpm. To the wheels and in a real world driving cycle, low 30s is a more accurate figure. Toyota’s hybrid integration is definitely top notch and I respect it highly.

As for people misusing and overtaxing their car and potentially becoming depleted of pack power, I ask what would happen in a pure EV in that scenario? Also, if you were forced to pull over after such an event and allow the on-board system to recharge for a while, how is this different/worse than running out of gas or needing to plug-in?

Range extended HEVs aren’t the answer for everything, but I do believe they’d dominate a market share if effort was put in to creating one that functioned well.

PS: When bringing up charge/discharge round trip efficiency as a draw-back of a RE-EV, is this not also happening in every other EV/Hybrid that uses batteries?

Also, a split-pack design would be one way to get around any variable load situation. Also can be a way to do thermal management. Dual chemistry opportunities could also come into play here..

Sorry folks, I’ll see myself out Beer

Lightbringer
Lightbringer's picture
Online
Last seen: 2 min 56 sec ago
Joined: 08/30/2016 - 14:12
Posts: 11119
Location: nyc
JaredM wrote:
In terms of the complexity to convert an AC generator to DC.. I say why are we not using a DC generator in the first place? I think an AC generator example creates a more complicated than necessary image of the system.

Old-timey cars used to use generators, in fact. Simply a motor run backwards. The problem is that generated (haha) voltage was a function of rpm. Run the engine too slowly for too long, and the battery would discharge. Run it too fast for too long, and the battery would overcharge.

Also, the brushes would have to handle the full current being supplied. Sparking, electrically noisy, wearing very quickly, lots of drawbacks.

In contrast, alternators have the stators handling the bulk current. The rotor, connected via slip-rings, would handle much less current, and would be used to control the output (separate or integrated regulator).

So even at low rpm, you could overtickle the rotor so that maximum current/voltage could be supplied (within reason). And at high rpm, instead of frying the battery, you would scale back the tickle-current and still maintain a constant voltage.

“Converting AC to DC” was as simple as a diode-pack. 3 phases would have lot of overlap to appear as almost-DC (lots of ripple, though).

Last advantage is that the heavy-current windings of an alternator were on the outside, and could be press-fit to the case for good heat-transfer, and even have open vents to help cool the windings. A generator would have the windings buried inside, far from any good heat-path.

Nope, I’ll stick with alternators any day.

09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0

kennybobby
kennybobby's picture
Offline
Last seen: 22 min 4 sec ago
Joined: 05/10/2017 - 09:13
Posts: 250
Location: huntspatch, alabama
JaredM wrote:
… I don’t think I agree with the “you can’t charge while pulling a variable load from a battery” statement. I’ve worked in battery research and development for many years now and definitely have different experience.

Don’t leave us hangin bro, you can’t throw out juicy tidbits like that and not follow up with some basic non-proprietary details.

Favorite Song = "Flashlight" (BLF of course, with a righteous bass)
https://youtu.be/gCTGMIXaD64

Exercise and Training:
My typical training routine: https://youtu.be/_aVASp9raMk
Morning Workout: https://youtu.be/ZEA_3yXG570

Remember Don't Do Drugs...
without me: https://youtu.be/oVKtxHTcnho

Rexlion
Offline
Last seen: 5 hours 11 min ago
Joined: 05/18/2019 - 16:59
Posts: 562
Location: Okla.

I once conversed with a couple who had a Tesla and were towing a small, molded-fiberglass travel trailer. Besides planning their route to hit charging stations, they were staying in campgrounds with 50A service and using that to recharge overnight.

Omega_17
Offline
Last seen: 3 hours 53 sec ago
Joined: 06/02/2013 - 16:56
Posts: 989
Location: France
Sirstinky wrote:
Well, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again… electric is the future. Any time I ride in an electric car I’m reminded that internal combustion, while definitely relevant (easy and cheap) and practical, will not be the focus of great innovation in the long term. We have the motive power with brushless motors that have gotten smaller, lighter and simpler to make and virtually maintenance free, speed controllers and such, but the thing lacking is the batteries/storage capacity. We still need a huge, expensive, heavy battery with lots of cells to move an electric car and maintain the same practicality of a internal combustion engine vehicle. In the end, a $60,000+ Tesla 3 still can’t compete with the practicality and range of a $15,000 sedan. Maybe the new batteries will help bridge the gap?

Exactly. And also cities will be so much quieter and with far less air pollution. But we also need a battery technology that is not toxic and limited.

Lightbringer
Lightbringer's picture
Online
Last seen: 2 min 56 sec ago
Joined: 08/30/2016 - 14:12
Posts: 11119
Location: nyc

Plus, there needs to be a way to cleanly recycle degraded cells.

Selling them to flashlight nuts on ebay is not a viable solution.

09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0

Sirstinky
Offline
Last seen: 32 min 19 sec ago
Joined: 11/02/2018 - 17:07
Posts: 529
Location: Vancouver, WA

Lightbringer wrote:
Plus, there needs to be a way to cleanly recycle degraded cells.

Selling them to flashlight nuts on ebay is not a viable solution.

Thumbs Up

There’s money to be made in recycling lithium batteries if done right, you know. It’s not really environmentally friendly and pretty expensive at the moment.

pommie
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 23 min ago
Joined: 08/28/2013 - 03:56
Posts: 964
Location: Corio, Victoria, Australia

The best thing for battery packs that have dropped to 80% capacity is to use them in the home, slap a solar array on the roof and charge it during the day, come home and use that to recharge your ev, leaving only 20% for the mains Cash

A 50kwh battery would mean only 10kw, easily done on home power.

Cheers David who would love to have the money to go off grid totally

Nothing to see here folks, move along...

Hikelite
Offline
Last seen: 5 hours 17 min ago
Joined: 07/13/2011 - 16:18
Posts: 3758
Location: RO

Sirstinky wrote:
Lightbringer wrote:
Plus, there needs to be a way to cleanly recycle degraded cells.

Selling them to flashlight nuts on ebay is not a viable solution.

Thumbs Up

There’s money to be made in recycling lithium batteries if done right, you know. It’s not really environmentally friendly and pretty expensive at the moment.

Absolutely.

There is also the question weather cutting down forests just to place inefficient solar panels is anything but continuing the problems that planet has anyway.
Maybe some would like to see tons of hills filled with solar panels, apparently some people say they are ok with that and I have already seen some place almost becoming entirely like that, instead of the lush vegetation there are tons of solar panels on small hills.

Considering that even housing in certain areas lack any nature around I can understand why the majority living in large concrete or no nature cities are in favor of just plastering the country side with solar panels.

Pages