Trustfire Flames letting me down.

Got 4pcs protected 14500 flames a few weeks ago from DX, they all came in at between 3.8v to 3.85v. Gave 2 to a friend for his e-cigs - he says the 2 are longer than his older flames and run out faster too.

While mine does seem a tight fit for my TF SA-2 and UF C3, but I can't really tell since this is my first time using 14500s.

The cells should not read 0.0v = Usually protection circuit problem ..

If you pull of the protection and they do the same thing - yeah recycle the cells ..

Ive had a few with faulty protection circuits , once removed the cells seem to work ok .

One has to wonder if these are the counterfeit Flames . ?

Id say no.

My first set is smaller and will fit in a 4xAA battery case, But these dont fit in it. Despite me being upset of the 750mAH marking on the cell under the wrapping, It did do 760-780mAH under very light testing at 4.16v down too 3v so had i pushed the cell it would have done 900mAH+ easily. Both sets are protected cells, But they cant be the same ones underneath.

The unprotected 18650 that died i bought off Ebay 6 weeks ago, And i bought 4 and the other 3 work great and test out to perfect specs.

I think im gonna chalk this up to bad luck, That 18650 was slowly going as i noticed it only holding 4.13v for a few weeks. But it should have held up to the 1.5A tests i ran on it im doing to all my cells and keeping records of. As long as nothing else flips out and keels over ill stick with the Flames, As they have been good up until this.

People have gotten counterfeit *fires on ebay... It's a sad comment on chinese industry when people are counterfeiting brands that are themselves counterfeits...

If DX is shipping them though, that'd be annoying...

--Bushytails

They may not be 100% counterfeits per se, just very lowly specced batts. They still work in a P4/Q5 which is the majority in which the masses in China can afford...few bucks light, you probably would not notice the drop. Actually that is already high-end, when I was in YiWu which is sort of the distribution centre for 70% of EVERYTHING common/commidties that you get in Americas/Europe, there are much simpler stuff there for the locals. Because that place is for "commoners", Shenzhen is more for electronics and apparels.

With a high powered cutting-edge light that the rest of the world plays with...woah. The might have come out from the "true trustfire appointed factory"....same line/same workers. Why is it so much lowered in performance? Someone paid the line to do it, everyone....perhaps the workers do not even get the share, just act on "manager's orders". 1 single run of 5000 batts - a lot goes to the manager. $1 cost price per batt becomes 20 cents per batt. I'd be surprised if there is much lithium inside. This happens when you have the "connection", everything works on connection in China.

Like that Sky Ray STL-V2 and Fandyfire STL-V6 (coz Fandyfire STL-V2 became the 3 x T6), prob from the M3X line. LOL! Even the models are mixed up, so they just conveniently choose a higher number.

The few times I've been to China, there are many rich man/woman who comes out to play. Audi S8, Merc S500/600 zooms by so regularly that it makes me as a SG citizen "blush". Have you been to a luxury restaurant in which 1 dozen man and woman whose job is just to stand there at the entrance, look pretty and bow to you and say "Welcome"? Or they light fireworks, BIG mofo 1.3G firework cakes (very illegal in USA I think), to welcome you? But at the back end, there are so many "peasants" that their saliva spit alone would make us drown.

Life is cheap. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9uuIa5GAAI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LNAQJb8bi8&feature=related

Well the 14500 with the bad pcb and low marked cell came from DX, This one was much larger the set i bought off ebay weeks earlier. But it checked out spec wise and if pushed too 2.5v on a discharge would easily max +900mAH capacity.

I have or should say "had" 4 unprotected cells from ebay and the guy sold them with a charger deal from a USA location for $30 and another $10 for a second set of 18650's. That matches and almost beats DX prices from a USA seller. So very possible they are fakes, But i can test them today and see how the other 3 are doing.

My cells see little use since im so new to this and have about 7 flashlights ive acquired in 6 weeks and have no legit use for them except i just enjoy them and pray the electricity goes out so i can play with my toys. Ill test all 3 from the batch i got from that USA seller which are all btw all unprotected, But that was my fault for being a newb and not knowing they made Flames in both varieties.

2100- China is a world away from the USA and most likely imitates a time in our past when we were industrial giants like China has become. Cool fireworks, But thats crazy close to many flammable things and a person here would be arrested before they even stopped and sued for damages i couldn't even imagine.

Ill post back some capacity graph tests of the other three 18650's.

Ive got really bad news for myself, All 4 18650 cells i bought off Ebay cant even hold a charge to handle 1.5 amps for more than a few seconds and under a few minutes at .5 amps.

Im testing the 2 TF Flame protected cells i just got from DX and the first one is handling a 1.5 amp discharge just fine. Ill post those results later as they will take a while to finish the cycle, But the results look promising.

I used a few of the cells with no issue that i could see, But the charger tells me different. Im gonna stick each cell with a full charge into a single 18650 light and see how long it lasts. Ill charge all 3 cells on my Pila charger so i cant blame the Hyperion for any odd reason.

Cell #1 @ 1.5amps

Cell #2 @ 1.5amps

Cell #3 @ 1.5amps

Cell #4 @ 1.5amps

Cell #4 @ .5amps

This cell was tested when i first got the charger, I never tested the unprotected ones above until i decided to do a cycle test on every Li-Ion cell i own. Cell #5 is in the Hyperion now and is doing fine just like the one below. Note i didnt have a temp probe when i ran this one.

Cell #6 @ 1.5amps

So, to make sure I'm understanding you right... the DX trustfire flames are good cells but one had a bad protection board, while the ebay trustfire flames are garbage?

--Bushytails

Kinda confusing as i originally started the thread with issues on a 14500 and 18650 cells that were both TF Flames.

The 14500 was from DX order i just received and was larger than my older set and both were protected cells, It came to a conclusion the PCB protection was bad and once stripped the cell works great. I will add that under the Flame wrapper the cell is clearly marked 750mAH and not 900mAH as the wrapper claimed. But my tests showed that if i did run the cell down too 2.5v it would in fact do 900mAH, But stopping at 3v it was still over 750mAH. Its still a good cell for $3 each at DX.

Secondly is the issue with the 18650 cells i bought 6 weeks ago from an Ebay seller, I bought 4 total and all were unprotected due to my lack of knowledge. But i know i didnt abuse any of these as i only had one light that runs 18650 cells and i keep 2x Cr123's in it for high power bursts. I just got 2 more 18650 protected cells in from DX the same time i got the new 14500's. These have proven to be legit and great!

I finally got around to testing all my cells as i bought 10 Panasonic 18650's that i had been charging and testing each cell. This is when i found the first of these bogus Flames that couldn't handle even a .5amp discharge. Ive since tested all four and none will hold a charge worth anything. They did seem to do fine in a light when i used one during a black-out at my house. So im recharging each cell in my Pila and then will test them in a single cell 18650 light. That should minimize the hazard of 2 cell operation.

Summery:

1. TF Flame 14500 from DX had a bad protection board and labeled 750mAH under wrapper, But still very usable.

2. Four TF Flame 18650 unprotected cells i bought off ebay are junk and cant hold a charge, FAKES!

3. ALL DX cells i bought are just fine.

There's lots of fakes on ebay... consider these wonderful fake ultrafires:
https://budgetlightforum.com/t/-/2359

DX shipping bad cells would seriously suck, as the flames are the best (and almost only) budget option for high-current cells... but if it was just a bad protection board, that's a minor problem.

I wonder if these fakes are the cause of some of the other bad reports about trustfires I've read? I think a few of them were ebay. I'm going to have to make a point of never buying ebay cells... the only ones I've gotten on ebay were some of the UF 3000s, half of which were DOA, and all likely are fakes like the ones above.

If your 18650s are toast, feel like cutting the wrapper off and seeing what you find?

--Bushytails

Cell #5 just ran its discharge cycle at 1.5 amps and started at 4.2v and ended at 3v for a capacity of 2337mAH, Had i taken it down to 2.5v like most people do in tests the cell would be in the 2500-2600mAH range.

Ill never buy another li-Ion cell off ebay again as that was an expensive lesson.

Since both DX Flame 18650's tested out very well ill buy them from now from now on. Im waiting for these cells to charge on my Pila and im gonna test them in my Olight M20s as its the only single 18650 cell light i have, The other one is a double cell. But yes ill take the wrapper off if they fail this last test, I had one yesterday i took the wrapper off before i threw it away. That was the first one i found that started all this. It was just a alluminum case with a few numbers on it and nothing i could discern any meaning from. Put ill post a pic of one if i have to dump them.

BTW i wasnt thinking when i threw the one away, Ill drop the next three off for recycling like i should have done the first time. I was just so upset i wanted it out of my sight.

And I have to admit that my working cell isn't as crappy as previously stated. I did a new test on my XM-L light and got around 2.5 amps on this cell to, same as my other batteries. Don't know why I got low readings before but at the moment I'd say it's an OK cell. The other one still sucks though...

You may need to strip it and take the protection PCB off like i had to do with my 14500 TF Flame.

Im not afraid of unprotected cells as im OCD about my hobbies and id never let a cell run too low, And none of my chargers would even allow a cell to overcharge even if i tried to make them do it.

Im just gonna stick with TF Flames from DX and other Chinese shops and stay away from EBAY on any Li-ion cells. Whats bad is almost all my NiMH cells came from Ebay also and ive had no issues, But those are harder to copy due to retail packaging and most are from retailers inside the USA.

I did my last test on a random cell of the 3 remaining fakes cells, The 4th was pitched yesterday when i found out it was junk. These ill recycle like i should have done.

For the final test i put a random cell in my Olight M20s that uses single cell 18650's for safety as 2 cells that are junk running together could be a dangerous situation if one runs into meltdown and vents.

The light lasted 29 minutes before my 2x AA SolarForce L2r was more than 2x as bright as the M20. Normally the M20 beats the heck out of the L2r due to its lower cells.

At the end i took a tail reading on high at .39 amps and i put my 2x cr123 cartridge back in and it put out .73 amps and they are not new cells and have over an hour on them already. The Flames final voltage when pulled was 3.77v and this light doesn't pull to hard with an R5 led in it.

So ill be junking all three, And im considering contacting the Ebay seller about his fake crap cells hes selling. Im kind of busy atm, But i will get you guys pic's of the cell with the wrapper off. Most likely tomorrow tho.

(Edit) I just pulled the wrappers on all 3 and none matched at all except in size and shape, Numbers and markings were all different and i found old solder points under the caps they spot welded on. But these were rather well cleaned compared to other desolder jobs ive seen on some fakes. The bottom plate they spot welded on has a raised center that will allow the plate to fit the outer edges flush so they didnt have to remove the old spot welds fully. I tried to leave a top tab on so you could see the old spot weld spots and the same with the bottom. My best guess is none were even made in the same plant looking at the markings and codes.

Take a look at the ultrafires in the thread I linked to above... exact same thing. Not a single cell matches out of the six he got.

That's conclusive proof they're counterfeits, as the real trustfires are consistent. Might even be the same factory as the UFs above...

--Bushytails

I had seen that thread before so thats how i knew a bit of what to look for in a fake cell. With these that i have it would be easy also i think to spot a fake.

Mine were unprotected cells due to my lack of knowledge when i bought them, But for some odd reason they had raised end caps on the bottom. This was to hide the old spot welds and or solder.

I always disliked Ultrafire since they tend to over state their capacity on everything and by a large amount also.

I contacted the Ebay seller and told them about the cells, But i think they got the impression it was a Trustfire issue in over stating the ratings. But i wrote back and explained they had nothing to do with TF and were fakes made somewhere else. Most likely recycled cells or laptop pulls, And gave them a link to this thread. Ive already told them i don't want reimbursement or replacement, I like learning things the hard way and paying for my mistakes the hard way. Plus it gives me reason to buy better cells real soon :)

I will be posting the pics of the 3 i have, But they look just like the ones you had. All mismatched and sloppy solder and spot welds showing from previous use.

Ill still buy TF products, Just from a reputable Chinese dealer who most likley buys direct from the factory.

Got WF-139 to gift to my friend, you can´t fit any Xtars to it, just barely these TF Flames.

Problem is, DX is so slow nowadays, planning to test "sinedya" on eBay OR do you already have experiences with this dealer on TF Flames?

What else batts would fit (protected) to WF-139?

I purchased a Ultra Fire Wf 139 & 4*18650,the problem is the charger cuts at 3.84v, in each cells,green led status for more than +5hrs or so but still the voltage is 3.84.Can any one tell if the charger is bad or all the cells.

In the meantime I contacted Dx & they are ready for giving replacement or store credit,but I somehow feel what if the new batch of Wf-139 chargers are all undercharging or perhaps the 4*Tf Flames what I got are all defective ones,any one reads this post plz reply and give opinion whatever in ur opinion.

Have you tried to re-sit the cells? Sometimes with my WF-188 i'd need to resit the bugger like at least 10 times before it really starts to charge proper. Difficult to say, and have you tried to use different cells?

Thankx 2100 for the reply

q>2100- Have you tried to re-sit the cells?

ans>Yes I have tried to re-sit the cell,I even switched it off then re-sitted the cells but still after reaching 3.84v it cuts off & green light appears.

q>Difficult to say, and have you tried to use different cells?

ans>Actually I have only four Tf 18650 cells from Dx,I have tested them all & they all cuts in the 3.84mark.

2 more thing I noticed.:-

1>When there is no cell in the charger & the green leds are on,the voltage displays in the DMM is 4.96v

2>I opened the charger & can see there are several dry solder cuz the surface is pale,so can it be a reason of undercharging.

Does undercharging damages or lower the power of Lion cells ?