Thanx All! I'd love to even see $52 for a group buy - no bag, $12 option for the 26700 battery. Krono is the group buy man of choice for this - I have no interest in doing one -- too much work!
Figure $30 is the regular discounted price on a HD2010, LED/star and AR lens are worth maybe another $12. There's another couple bucks for better quality components, and of course, you can't buy a 25 mm copper star (still to confirm), and so many untangibles, like the centering ring sucks on a HD2010 - they have been loose and so difficult to center the LED, you have to loosen the pill for a tight fit to the reflector, or use the o-ring on the pill (not a good idea), the anodizing finish, water resistance improvements with the high qual threads and o-rings, style, bigger reflector (more throw), better regulation from the driver so you can use quality cells and not worry about smoking the LED or having major heat sag droppage (classic problem with stock HD2010's), no chinese lottery on the driver. Also you don't have to worry about the crappy packaging from TMART, the nicks, finger prints on the lens or reflector, hit/miss quality of the reflector, fogged out lens.... I'm sure I can continue on this, ugh...
Even after addressing most of the HD2010 issues with mods, you are still left with a budget looking light less capable (smaller reflector, can't run 26700 cells) where every component basically has been replaced. I've got around $75 into a couple of HD2010 with copper pills, more closer to $100 considering 2-3 stages of mods over time. Don't get me wrong - I still like the HD2010 (keeps me busy), just the M12 is a different level.
4.2V Single Lithium 5A 3-Mode LED Driver Boar Cree XM-L T6 U2/SST50/MCE/SS-P7 (5-Pack)
Size: 17MM*10MMWorking
Voltage: 2.7~4.5V (factory protection voltage: single lithium in 2.7V,Constant current output when the voltage is higher than the LED VF value)
Temperature protection :55-60 degrees (Change to the low mode and flash one every 5seconds when protection)
Constant current: 5A
Low voltage protection: single lithium in 2.7V (the mode will change to low and flash two every 5 seconds when protecttion)
Modes: 3 Mode (100%High - 30%Mid - 5%Low) Power cut off less than 2 secondschange the modes,more than 3 seconds,keep at the same mode.
This might be a nice option for this light. I bought a give pack a while back but they were not exactly right. More like 5% 80% 100%. I have another 5 pack on the way and they promised me that they programmed it right this time. The output was impressive for sure. I stuck one in a HD2010 and a few other lights. Supposed to get the next batch very soon, I’ll let you know how they work when they come in if you are interested.
It works good in a bigger light, but didn’t cut it in the C10’s that I built. It would go into protection almost right away.
I see what you are saying. Although from a factory standpoint. Adding AR, copper mcpcb, and going from T6 to U2 is probably no more than 5$ over the regular parts. HD2010 GB price was about 20$. That is about 30-40% discount. That is a Group Buy price!
M12 is 67$ with battery and holster. Battery might be around 10-12$. That leaves 55-57$ for light with holster. Remove 4$ for holster and we are down to 50-52$. Now if we could subtract 30% from 50$. Then we are looking at 35$ for the light. Then we are talking GB! :) Or Maybe 45$ with battery.
IMO the whole purpose of a GB is to get a price way below what a typical 10-15% discount would give.
If the light were 52$ then why call it a GB? Its not even a special price or deal. Where is the discount??? Its just regular price minus some accessories that you are not paying for.
The term Group-Buy seems be be more and more watered down lately.
LM Driver - Dang, yes - that driver does look interesting. That temp protection is a concern. If it trips right away in a C10, then it's probably reacting to the heat build up in the pill (housing and/or air). Always wondered bout this - in most conventional lights, we thermally attach the star to the pill top, then on the pill bottom we electrically/thermally attach the electronics... So we built a nice heat path direct to the driver... Hhmm, something seems wrong there. In C8's, I was typically adding copper in the pill, further reducing the air thermal barrier, and getting the pill housing itself heated up even quicker.
It has a hugh pile of resistors! I assume those are current limiting, not sensing. Do you know how the PWM's are with that driver?
Nice figuring Race, except for one thing…the bottom line is ALWAYS going to be about the cost/sell ratio. If the original group buy on the HD2010 saw a 30% net savings, then it was because the HD2010 had that much ceiling. If the MAXToch Mission is already a good price over cost to produce, there’s no way they’re going to drop 30% off it for a group buy and lose money. Would you? So while it’s nice to figure every group buy should have those margins, it’s not realistic. Who knows? Maybe the Mission could be sold at cost for $15, but the quality bely’s that train of thought. And sometimes, when the manufacturer starts listening to the needs of the consumer, more parts have to be outsourced, driving up cost of production.
This is a new light, and the first run sold out quickly. Why should they discount it in order to sell, when they’re selling all they can make at asking price?
I’m in for one as soon as round 2 comes through, with the cell and the pouch. Amanda? Write me up, please don’t lose me on this next round…
Just took the HD2010 into the shower to check the PWM and I couldn’t see any, but then I only notice it when it’s bad. Not too dark in there either. But it’s not bad anyway.
On the heat it’s a good question but I notice that I am most likely to have problems when it’s simply too small of a pill. So it’s probably a little of both. Little too no air and the heat is right there hitting it almost directly.
What this driver did when it got too hot was stick in high and then you had to shut it off to get back the modes and then it would do it again and again. I never did kill it doing that though. But I didn’t have it long, it was for Manxbuggy. He still has it that way I think. That was driving an XP-G2, if that makes a difference.
edit: it had no problems at all running an XP-G2 in a ZY-T08. It really made for a nice light that way.
I replaced it, due to those issues. If that was the same light. Put an BLF17DD in it with the STAR firmware. Don’t remember if that was an HD2010 and I also put one of Ryan’s copper pills in it or not. I’m thinking it was though. I forget too easily. Could it have been in a C10?
At any rate, I’ve always wondered the same thing…how is it we expect the pill to pull mega heat from the emitter, and keep the driver cool at the same time? We need some isolation, separation, freon!
It was a bummer that it wouldn’t work right in that light. I let him know before sending it but I think he just wanted to see what it was going to be like on high.
Did you end up getting to use the driver in something larger?
Yep it was in a C10, just no room at all for it to get rid of heat.
It’s funny but on a lot of lights with larger pills I prefer to just hang the driver from the contact board so it’s not making contact with the light at all. I never seem to have problems with them when I do that.
I think it’s just in the box, waiting for it’s chance to shine. lol
Tom, do you feel like this Mission light will handle the full onslaught of a DD set-up? You mention that the mass is on the sparse side, will it do the full run?
DBCstm im fully aware of the basics of retail stores. More than most. Selling things at loss is not uncommon as long as gain can be made in the long run.
Either way, back to the light. Neither of us know how much they earn, so why not aim for a considerably lower price? Afterall this is BLF.
If some vendor says huge sale. I expect huge sale, lots of products with great savings.
If someone says GB, im expecting a proper discount. Especially if many people buy. If not, don't call it a GB.
Maybe we should make some new names.
GBWRP - Group Buy With Regular Price.
This is the GB for people that just to like to buy things in groups. Getting a deal or saving any money compared to regular price is not important.
GPWLD - Group Buy With Low Discount
This is for people who feel a bit lonely just buying things with regular discount codes, and at regular sales..
Excellent points by all. I just have a few things to add.
With MaxToch, you know you are getting an excellent product right out of the box. This is the company I wish I had bought my initial products from when the flashlight bug bit! Ultimately, I would have spent far less and have a much better, quality collection. There is value in that.
MT/Amanda also listens to us. They have specifically re-designed many lights in their line-up because of feedback received from many BLF members. Has NiteCore? Sunwayman? Thrunite? Fenix? Do these manufacturers have a presence here…other than possibly lurking around, relentlessly pursuing MAP violations? The fact that MT eagerly listens to feedback is especially of interest to a moderate tinkerer such as myself. But, when you think about it, their lights still leave room for modders that want a solid light for a foundation to build off of. More added value.
Speaking of MAP…how many GBs for other lights have been ruined because of the MAP enforcement police? How about the wasted time put into hiding GB info from them…having to email/pm pricing data, etc. Seriously warped thinking considering the exposure those companies enjoy at our expense. They even benefit when the GB goes south and people are still clamoring for them…creating much internet buzz on the very product they are blocking you from getting a deal on! Ironic…huh? I guess I don’t quite understand the great interest in the continual pursuit of Group Buys from companies that strictly enforce MAP. I reckon it is a forbidden fruit kinda thing…lol.
Sorry this was a little long winded. I contacted Amanda regarding the M12 for a GB. Will let you know the results. Just know that if they want to do one that I will endeavor to get the best deal…keeping in mind that it is a light that sold out on the first run.
Thanks Krono, preciate your efforts and would like very much to get in on this one. I have a little Maxtoch on the way, 2 on the shelf, and I need that 4th one to round out the collection.
For the M12 - dunno til I get the driver out and can get a good looky inside. My plan would be DD and it does have some weight to it overall, but think'n not as much heft as a 2010 --- hhmm, gotta get her open... Can't recall, but the T08 I though had less heat sinking than a 2010 and it does well at high amps/heat. gotta look more this eve and see if I can get it open. Even look'n quick at the pics of them all side by side above, the M12 is the thinnest up in the neck and head area... I'm pretty sure it's a uni-body pill area, based on the view of the star (not shown well in the pic).
Thanks all - I'll leave the GB dealing to the experts here. Thanx! I should be in for 2 or 3 (gifting, alternate mods, etc.).
Thanks for the driver info. Could the inductor be a boost one, like we always wanted for the single li-ion lights?
It is a pain to sand away anodising inside a cavity and make it flat at the same time, I did that in the tiny UltrafireM5 twice, by hand :-( . I made a small pillar for the sanding job, with a flat top, diameter a bit smaller than the to be sanded surface, wrapped the sanding paper around the top and worked the surface with that.
My tech. colleagues spent long time in finding the best design of reflector. The size, electroplate, thickness, process and many other points are all very important for the final result. The photo below shows how he find the best choice for M12’s reflector.
I guess this is not an easy job, because he looked so proud when he passed this photo to me… 8) And congratulations to me that I finally learned how to upload a photo here!
Haven't done any formal heat sink tests. The heavy amount of thermal grease present under the MCPCB has me a little concerned the pill top is not flat. The small center indent is not a big deal to me - I didn't see any negative effects on the XinTD X3 running it at high amps. But the other circular pattern around the center dimple is more of a concern - it may result in greatly limiting the contact surface area of the MCPCB to the pill top.
Metal to metal is the best thermal path. Any thermal grease will have a much lower thermal property than aluminum or copper. Can you find out more about this? Maybe they addressed this in the 2nd production batch?
