who is buying me a XP-E2 Torch led? Update: DBCstm did, test is in post#81

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Hestbech
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Thanks djozz! Some English phrases still does not compute in my danish grey matter Smile

If shipping is between $2 and $4 I would still like four -if you still got some

It would be dandy if birds pooped candy ::
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Hestbech wrote:

Thanks djozz! Some English phrases still does not compute in my danish grey matter Smile

I had a fine education in slang because I lived with in one house for half a year with two irish guys (one catholic from Dublin, one protestant from Belfast, true story!), with a good amount of guessing from my side the communication went along fine. Works for Irish and works for Texans just as well :bigsmile:

Hestbech
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LOL! Sounds like an explosive clash of religion and accents Smile

I once took a 3d animation class in Denmark. But most the teachers were foreigners. German, French, American (Texas) and Finland.

One of the danish students of the course once lived in Ireland for 2 years. His English accent was HILARIOUS!

Imagine English language with a thick danish accent - while trying to sound Irish. For some reason he thought a lot of cursing made him sound more Irish Big Smile

He had a lot of arguments with the teacher from Texas. Those were sooooooo fun to observe!!!

 

Really bad english with thick danish accent Smile

 

oh oh oh. And we had a danish teacher (a class on how to do clay modelling) who had to speak English because of the mixed student nationalities.

His wife was nude posing for our clay modelling. And the teacher kept saying to one of the french students that her claymodel had to be more filthy. It was sooooo weird, innapropriate - and fun.

What he actually meant was voluminous. In Danish voluminous is fyldig - and he thought fyldig translated into filthy Tongue Out


- Sorry for the off topic

It would be dandy if birds pooped candy ::
RMM
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It was late last night, but I dedomed an XP-E2 torch and stuck it in a cheap zoomie light (sorry, no crash testing yet).  
I went conservative and ran it at only 3A to get a feel for things.  The tint dedomed isn't bad and while it was too late to measure it, it does seem like it puts out more lumens than any other XP-E2 I've seen.  I will get some OTF measurements, then it's time to see how high it will go before it pops.   

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DB Custom
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I too found the de-domed tint to be pretty decent.

I leave the testing to you guys that are better equipped to do so. I could blow em up all right, but probably wouldn’t have much pertinent data to go with the pile of little smokies.

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Once again I feel the pain of being the last (of the first, I admit Wink) to get my hands on a promising new led (3A and still improving output sounds like a killer, Richard!).

I will tell the family that we will move to the US before the next led comes on the market. 

DB Custom
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Well djozz, you have some heading at you… might be on the back of a mule though, don’t know. lol

They’re coming, anyway.

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FWIW I just measured 323 lumens OTF of my cheap plastic lens zoomie flashlight with the dedomed XP-E2 torch @ 3A.  Not sure that is worth much because I am probably getting some significant losses.  

I might see where it pops, but I think I will let djozz do the true crash testing. 

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If these were used under a triple optic, would de-doming them help it to have a tighter hot spot? What amperage would be the goal for 3? 6A? Perhaps a little more? I’m thinking of building one of Wights PZL drivers and limiting it with chips to the 6A range for a triple in a small light. Don’t necessarily want a lot of light, just nicely collimated white light.

Any thoughts?

Oh, or would I be better off using a reflector and one emitter, de-domed? (at around 2-3A, not 6, of course. )

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RMM wrote:

FWIW I just measured 323 lumens OTF of my cheap plastic lens zoomie flashlight with the dedomed XP-E2 torch @ 3A.  Not sure that is worth much because I am probably getting some significant losses.

I got my emitters today. Pretty quick.. Thank you very much Dale! I owe you one..

Quickly tested: 270lm OTF from UF-T20 driven at 2.75A. Focus is not perfect yet, but even then I'm a bit disappointed on 54kcd throw compared to earlier 140kcd results from my similar(ish) XP-G2 mod (which was driven harder though).

=the=

 

MEM
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Some of you are driving the XP-E2 Torch at 2.75+ amps it is stated. Don’t you consider this quite high for an E2, even an E2 Torch? My question results from data acquired from the thread located here comparing AL vs Cu sinkpads: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/19331

In the above thread it is seen that the output curve is rounding off at around 2.4A for the XP-E2. Above 2.4A, it appears the actual percentage gain would be very minimal in lumens. Of course you would have increased localized heat soak around 3A with the high value of 9 C°/W thermal resistance of the die (compared to G2 or especially L2 dies). IMO, I do not see much benefit running this emitter above 2.5A for maximum average gain, and that would be with a healthy size copper pill. At 3A, I would assume you may start with quite a bit more intensity than would be achieved if the test were repeated again 5 minutes later.

Thoughts?

I like bright lights, and I cannot lie.

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Hi MEM, welcome to BLF Party

You may be very right. The XP-E2 output even starts dropping fast above 2.5A. This led however, as claimed by Cree, is supposed to allow a bit more current than a normal XP-E2, that is why people start to do that. I have a few of these coming in the mail and will do a proper output test on a copper board to see what's going on.

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I'm pretty sure that this led is no different than xp-e2,actually they're probably trying to get rid of junk bins,and there is no better way than making "new" led with different name).Cree claims higher driving current,but they do similar thing with xp-g in the past (raising max. current from 1 to 1.5A),but didn't change led's name.

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led4power wrote:

I’m pretty sure that this led is no different than xp-e2,actually they’re probably trying to get rid of junk bins,and there is no better way than making “new” led with different name).Cree claims higher driving current,but they do similar thing with xp-g in the past (raising max. current from 1 to 1.5A),but didn’t change led’s name.


If you look at the CREE Product Characterization Tool, you will see a lot more differences than just the higher max current rating. In fact, there are several ways that the XP-E2 Torch is worse than the “original” XP-E2 in the specs, according to the PCT. You should be able to get higher total lumens, though, because of the higher Vf of the XP-E2 Torch. If the die is exactly the same size, then surface brightness should be a bit higher, which should mean a little more throw. Really, if I were looking at this emitter as a replacement for either a XP-E2 or a XP-G2 emitter, I would not be impressed to buy any. The XP-E2 beats it in lumens-per-watt, at least, and the XP-G2 beats it in almost every way, except maybe die size (I don’t know the die sizes, so I’m unsure of that).

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djozz wrote:

Hi MEM, welcome to BLF Party

You may be very right. The XP-E2 output even starts dropping fast above 2.5A. This led however, as claimed by Cree, is supposed to allow a bit more current than a normal XP-E2, that is why people start to do that. I have a few of these coming in the mail and will do a proper output test on a copper board to see what’s going on.

With a higher Vf AND a higher drive current, you should get a bit more light coming out the front. Efficiency ( lm/w ) is a little worse than “original” XP-E2 according to PCT. So, it’s like an engine in a car. You can get more horsepower, at the expense of fuel mileage. Overall, I don’t think CREE made any real “improvements” this time. I would define “improvements” as getting more light without costing more watts. For those that don’t care about efficiency and are looking for that last bit of increase in throw at any cost, the XP-E2 Torch may be a decent way to get that.

The Cycle of Goodness: “No one prospers without rendering benefit to others”
- The YKK Philosophy

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look at it this way:

We flashlight lovers like throw (don't lie, perhaps in secret, but you all do!) and that has everything to do with die surface brightness. The XP-E2 (and the XP-G2) has the die with the highest surface brightness on the market, and it is even not that much higher than of the good old XR-E die from 8 years ago. So despite the developement of all kinds of exciting new leds since the XR-E, surface brightness apparently is something that is difficult to improve. Now there is a led that seems to have a higher surface brigtness than whatever else is on the market. Even if the increase is 20%, that is a big deal.

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Where do you see 20% brightness increase?

I'm getting 4.4% from PCT tool,but voltage is 0.1V higher,so lm/W difference is negligible.

But no one mentioned tint or cri difference,manufacturer can easily add more green phosphor for that 5-10% "improvement"(been there done that-cree?Smile).

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led4power wrote:

Where do you see 20% brightness increase?

I'm getting 4.4% from PCT tool,but voltage is 0.1V higher,so lm/W difference is negligible.

But no one mentioned tint or cri difference,manufacturer can easily add more green phosphor for that 5-10% "improvement"(been there done that-cree?Smile).

It was an 'if', meant hypothetical Smile , a test will tell it all, I will directly test it against a XP-E2 R3 (I do not have a R4 bin)

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led4power wrote:
But no one mentioned tint or cri difference,manufacturer can easily add more green phosphor for that 5-10% “improvement”(been there done that-cree?Smile).

These are 10500K temp leds, aren’t they? That’s incredibly blue, way off the bottom end of the Ansi tint chart. So it makes sense that with less phosphor in the way and less aggressive conversion to the red end of the spectrum that’s going to account for most of the increased output and surface luminance. Right?

Oh and had to laugh at the green comment Smile Cree does have a love for the greener side of the spectrum.


Standard issue Cree lab equipment Wink

MEM
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…and Hello guys BTW Smile Smile

I can test an E2 Torch de-dome vs a XP-E2 R4 1C de-dome using a preferred method (but not in an integrating sphere).

I will use an optical table with linear translation stages and a quality lens mounted in front of each LED, aimed at a backing board @ 5 meters. A manual photo can actually be a fairly good CRI indicator (or at least a good Kelvin temp indicator using known tints for comparison images), using a Nikon camera on a tripod with manual setting to take photos of each LED focused. I have a GW Instek lab power supply to drive each with. Both will be on Noctigons mounted to an aluminum block on the rear stage. Test will be at different comparison amperage levels, power on <10 seconds, photo take, power off, cool time, repeat. This is pretty effective for real-world intensity differences I find. Using OSB wall as the backing, CRI becomes more apparent than using a white wall, as varied colors of wood exist to be rendered inside of the projection image.

The only physical difference between E2 and E2 Torch I believe is E2 has a 2.45mm dome height and Torch has a 2.35mm dome height, but I’m pulling those dimensions from memory, so double check if concerned of them. That is why the divergence angle increases 10° to 125° total on the Torch model. So yes it is slightly physically different than before. I suspect Cree does this angle increase, because a higher current rating is capable of covering more area with similar intensity light—so increase output angle to gain bare-beam coverage.

I like bright lights, and I cannot lie.

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I did a test as well Smile let's hope we have similar results. (and welcome to BLF, MEM, it is nice to have another led-tester in the forum, with the bit different test-strategy that you are planning to follow, there's only more insight in the performance of a led !)

I received 6 XP-E2 Torch leds from DBCstm. They are the U5 bin from Mouser (Cree part nr. XPEBTT-01-0000-00Y80), which is the highest bin that Mouser sells and the highest bin according to the datasheet. Why Cree chose the XP-L bin-code (outputs compared at 1050mA) for this led instead of the normal XP bin-code (outputs compared at 350mA) is beyond me! The colour temperature is claimed to be from 6000K to 10,000K (quite a range!), which explains why at least the led I tested does not look all that extremely cool, quite comparable to the XP-E2 R3 1D0 tint from the led I compare it with actually, it must have been closer to 6000K then. First a close look at the leds:

XP-E2 R3 1D0 -><- XP-E2 Torch U5

The package and lay-out looks exactly the same, but the die of the 'Torch' is much rougher/flaky. (the black corner of the Torch led is a marking by me)

I reflowed one of my XP-E2 R3 1D0 leds, and a XP-E2 Torch U5 led on 16mm Noctigons and tested the voltage and led output in my integrating sphere. My methods are explained in detail in the XP-L test thread, with the difference that I used my big integrating sphere instead of the smaller one, but since both are calibrated with the same constant output light source, they should produce the same results.

After testing the leds I dedomed the two leds by heating the boards to reflow temperature on my heat block and then hot-dedome them with a scalpel. I then tested the leds again in the sphere.

 

The results:

Observations from the graph:

*not only does this XP-E2 Torch led have a (not too dramatic btw) higher output than the tested XP-E2 R3 led, but the maximum output is reached at a bit higher current as well (3.0A as opposed to 2.6A), this is at a higher current than any of the XP-E2 leds that I have tested, none max'ed out at higher than 2.6V. This suggests that the Torch led does not just have a higher output/efficiency, it might also have been structurally changed a bit.

*this Torch led has a maximum output that is 22% more than the led it was tested against, this sounds good, but it might be a bit less promising than it sounds. Comparing the dedomed outputs gives me the opportunity to include four other dedomed XP-E2 R3 1D0 leds that I have recently tested (in the 'cherry-picking' thread). When the best performing led from the five tested is chosen, the Torch does only 14.6% better. And then again, if the XP-E2 bin had been the top R4 instead of the tested R3 bin, that best performing XP-E2 could have been 6% brighter even, and compared with that best performing from the best bin conventional XP-E2 there is only 7.2% improvement leftover that this Torch led provides, this would just be about one bin-number up: R5. (this is not completely fair, I should have 'cherry picked' my Torch led as well for this logic).

*the Torch led has a 0.8V higher voltage than the tested XP-E2 R3 led, but that is within the variation that exists within XP-E2 leds, i.e. the best tested led nr. 3 in the cherry-picking thread is only 0.3V lower than the Torch.

*a general observation: dedoming in these two leds caused a 9.2% and 9.3% decrease in light output resp., with no voltage changes. I tested a XM-L2 T6 3C domed and dedomed a while ago and dedoming caused 9.1% decrease in light output with again no voltage change. These numbers are very consistent while I have heard rumours before of 20% light loss and noticable voltage changes, upon dedoming.

Conclusion

I only tested one 'Torch' led, but it seems like this led is not the led with the dramatically improved surface brightness that I long for. Let's be gentle to Cree and say that it is about 10% brighter than the best bin XP-E2 around already.

On the other hand, I feared for an ugly extreme cool white tint but at least the XP-E2 Torch that I tested had a very bearable tint, not much above 6000K, and dedomed I (me=highCRI-snob) would call the tint actually pleasant Smile So in this perspective, the XP-E2 Torch is a fair upgrade for who wants cool and bright!

 

Mod

In the XP-E2 cherry picking thread I used the best of four tested dedomed XP-E2 R3 1D0 leds for a Supfire F3 zoomie build, and measured the throw to be 96 klux@1meter. This Torch led should do it a bit better, and because I was modding another F3 for a BLF-member anyway, I could use this led (he will not mind Wink) and see the improvement in a real flashlight. So I did the exact same mod again (Supfire F3, 6x7135 AK-47-A driver, XP-E2 Torch led, cosmetic blackening of the board mounting ring and led). The driver of the second mod provided 2.07A current, while the first mod did 2.10A (there's some variation in 7135 chips). My measurements say that the led in the first mod at 2.10A produces 452 lumen, the Torch led in the second mod at 2.07A produces 491 lumen, so with the first mod producing 96klux@1meter throw, the second mod should produce 104 klux@1meter.

Well, I measured 107 klux@1meter in the actual flashlight, that is close enough Smile

 

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Nice Smile thanks djozz

So this Torch XP-E2 is basically is a flux bin over the R4 bin.

I wish you had also tested at 3A or maybe even 3,5A non steady state from cold, so we could see if we could get a bit more output at start, because it always drop from the temp & volt sag in the batteries anyway in a actual flashlight.

Cool, so you got 491 lumens at 2.07A in the zoomy light with all those inherent losses, almost exactly what was predicted by your steady state chart but that was measure at the led. If i am not reading your chart wrong, i have done that before Wink

Was the 491 lumens at start or after 30 second? I am just really curious about the differences between measuring at start in a light & measuring at steady state over a longer time Smile

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cajampa wrote:
Nice Smile thanks djozz So this Torch XP-E2 is basically is a flux bin over the R4 bin. I wish you had also tested at 3A or maybe even 3,5A non steady state from cold, so we could see if we could get a bit more output at start, because it always drop from the temp & volt sag in the batteries anyway in a actual flashlight. Cool, so you got 491 lumens at 2.07A in the zoomy light with all those inherent losses, almost exactly what was predicted by your steady state chart but that was measure at the led. If i am not reading your chart wrong, i have done that before Wink Was the 491 lumens at start or after 30 second? I am just really curious about the differences between measuring at start in a light & measuring at steady state over a longer time :)

No, I'm sorry, but the 491 lumen was the bare led (dedomed). I did not mention the lumen output of the zoomie.... but I just did that for you Smile: zoomed out: 290 lumen, zoomed in 95 lumen (long focal length lenses like in this zoomie give narrow hotspots and big differences between zoomed in and zoomed out)

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Aha! yes now that i read your text again, i see that i had drawn the wrong conclusion Wink Big Smile thanks

Ok, so the Supfire F3 with the XP-G2 Torch in it gives 104 klux@1meter & 290 lumens zoomed out, right?

Interesting that means it is 39% loss from the bare led measurement.

What is klux? is this the same as the often reported kcd? :~

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Thanks again. I have a few also from the guilty person mentioned. It will be interesting what tint they are. I’ve pm’d you my address so you know where to send your small sphere now that it is gathering dust and taking up precious room. Big Smile

 

djozz quotes, "it came with chinese lettering that is chinese to me".

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old4570 said "I'm not an expert , so don't suffer from any such technical restrictions".

Old-Lumens. Highly admired and cherished member of Budget Light Forum. 11.5.2011 - 20.12.16. RIP.

 

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Mine doesn't look like it is 10,000K, more like 7,500K or so.  It looks slightly cooler than most of the 1As.

I also tried pushing one past 3A and the results were underwhelming.  I don't think that this LED deserved a new name, as it pretty much performs like a slightly higher binned XP-E2 and can't really handle more current. 

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cajampa wrote:
Aha! yes now that i read your text again, i see that i had drawn the wrong conclusion Wink Big Smile thanks Ok, so the Supfire F3 with the XP-G2 Torch in it gives 104 klux@1meter & 290 lumens zoomed out, right? Interesting that means it is 39% loss from the bare led measurement. What is klux? is this the same as the often reported kcd? :~

I made a topic of the light loss in this zoomie: http://www.budgetlightforum.com/node/38424

Yes, I personally have never dug into 'kcd' but it is the same number so I never bothered Innocent. I always use klux@1meter because that is how I measure it: I measure the klux@5meter and calculate back what it is at 1meter (times 25). klux@1meter is a sort of standard way to represent throw.

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djozz wrote:

Yes, I personally have never dug into 'kcd' but it is the same number so I never bothered Innocent. I always use klux@1meter because that is how I measure it: I measure the klux@5meter and calculate back what it is at 1meter (times 25). klux@1meter is a sort of standard way to represent throw.

Please use kcd. See http://budgetlightforum.com/node/4468

Thanks! Smile

=the=

 

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_the_ wrote:

djozz wrote:

Yes, I personally have never dug into 'kcd' but it is the same number so I never bothered Innocent. I always use klux@1meter because that is how I measure it: I measure the klux@5meter and calculate back what it is at 1meter (times 25). klux@1meter is a sort of standard way to represent throw.

Please use kcd. See http://budgetlightforum.com/node/4468

Thanks! Smile

Thanks for the link, I read it  with interest. Smile

I will be good, and use kcd from now on. But I still think that using klux@1m, although not the proper unit,  is more clear for the reader because it gives a direct clou of how it is measured.

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djozz wrote:

I will be good, and use kcd from now on. But I still think that using klux@1m, although not the proper unit,  is more clear for the reader because it gives a direct clou of how it is measured.

Thanks. I'm sometimes using "xxx klux@10m = yyy kcd" for clarity. 

=the=

 

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