17mm/22mm MTN-MAXlp - Low-Profile 1A-4A Programmable Buck Driver + 22mm MTN-MAX

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Tom E
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The Mouser parts list is putting me off a little. DigiKey I've found cheaper in the past when comparing qty 1 or 10 for example, so I've only ordered parts from DigiKey up til now. Also trying to figure qty of boards to make in this size, what lights best fit, etc. I'd probably want to use it in 1 or 2 e-switch lights, or lights with a wider driver, so, bigger board options (and higher power) of your next generation may be better for me, or take the chance with a contact board setup which you are not recommending. Dunno yet.

RMM
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Tom E wrote:

The Mouser parts list is putting me off a little. DigiKey I've found cheaper in the past when comparing qty 1 or 10 for example, so I've only ordered parts from DigiKey up til now. Also trying to figure qty of boards to make in this size, what lights best fit, etc. I'd probably want to use it in 1 or 2 e-switch lights, or lights with a wider driver, so, bigger board options (and higher power) of your next generation may be better for me, or take the chance with a contact board setup which you are not recommending. Dunno yet.

I shop at Mouser based on price, and price alone.  For me Mouser has almost always been cheaper than Digikey.  

For e-switch, you've either got to be OK with some quiescent current drain, or go to a bigger driver layout with more parts.  

Hold out a little longer for the bigger boards.  You have to think of the thermal path of one of these like you do with a high-powered LED---it will fry itself if pushed hard without a sufficient thermal path.  We are pushing it already by making everything so small.

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Tom E
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Hhmm - I gotta re-check part prices again then. Maybe I was just spot checking the MCU's, FET's, diodes - Hhmm: I see the ATTiny13A's are definitely cheaper at Mouser....

 Yep, can't think of much I can do with a buck driver at 17mm. I have no P60 tube extensions, but think I got 1 or 2 for Convoy C8's, and pretty much all my 2S cell lights use a bigger driver. The limited 18350 capacity can't justify converting a 1 cell 18650 light over. Also 4A is very limited if driving 2S cell triple LED lights, and converting the 3 LED's to parallel - obviously 2S cells driving 3S LED's won't work with a buck driver - boost is needed.

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RMM,

One group that may be very interested in this driver is laser enthusiasts.  Especially, if it provides pretty clean power.  Most laser diodes need much less then 4amps of power and some have fairly high Vf's.  They are always in search of a good boost and buck drivers.  If you don't belong to Laser Pointer Forums, there are some senior LPF members here on BLF.  Maybe one of them can help introduce you there to get you some street cred.

EDIT: Edits made to add content.

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I've looked at a few drivers over there before.  I think they'll be surprised to see that none of the IC markings have been sanded off and the files and information are available for free.  

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vestureofblood
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Well I am certainly impressed.     I'd probly have use for a pile once we can buy em at Mtn.  Smile

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What does "HP" stand for?  High Performance. Yell  I've got one running at 5.5A in a UF-1405 right now and it seems to be holding up well so far.  I ran it on 100% for 7 minutes straight and it didn't burn up, so I think there's a good chance that it will hold up in the long run.  That light finally runs like it should have from the beginning.  A bit more testing is needed, but I think that is the direction I'm going now.  The same design will be able to be used from 1A all the way up to 5.5A in 17mm by just changing a few components on the board.  

Also, I was able to build and test a 20mm.  It will be available soon.  That one can also do 5.5A (or maybe even more...haven't tried it yet.  The only place I'd want more would be in powering a triple or MT-G2.  For an XM-L2 5.5A is sufficient).  

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cajampa
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Hehe it looks like you are going to make me regret ordering a 1504 instead of the 1405 Wink Good job Smile

Did it hold a steady output at 5.5A like it did for the 3A version?

I hadn’t considered that very nice characteristic of the buck drivers before.

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I ordered the 1405 instead of 1504, just for this! Is the HP version on the same pcb with different components? or different altogether?

My Favorite Modded Lights: X6R, S8 , X2R , M6, SP03

Major Projects:  Illuminated Tailcap, TripleDown/TripleStack Driver

RMM
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pilotdog68 wrote:
I ordered the 1405 instead of 1504, just for this! Is the HP version on the same pcb with different components? or different altogether?

Different PCB, but only slightly different.  Two diodes instead of one with an extra input capacitor pad. 

Also, you need a Coilcraft inductor for this one, and it needs to be in a host with a pill design that is big enough and beefy enough to carry the heat away from the driver.  I wouldn't stick this one in a P60 or something small.  

We are really pushing it thermally with these tiny components.  I have only run this 5.5A through a single set of 26650s so far, so it really needs more testing.  I would hate to have them all start failing at the two hour mark.  The regular ones have seen 30+ hours at 3.5A and 4A inside of an actual flashlight, so I know that they can work.  

I've thought about unmasking a bit more of the copper on the thicker heat carrying traces so that they can be loaded with solder to reduce thermal and electrical resistance.  Every little bit can help here.  A 4 layer board, and a board with thicker copper would also provide thermal advantages if set up correctly, but those add to the cost significantly. Adding an optional bit of solder does not, so I am going to do a few tests to see if critical component temperatures change significantly with solder loaded copper planes.  

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RMM
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cajampa wrote:
Hehe it looks like you are going to make me regret ordering a 1504 instead of the 1405 Wink Good job Smile Did it hold a steady output at 5.5A like it did for the 3A version? I hadn't considered that very nice characteristic of the buck drivers before.

Yes it does. 

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pilotdog68
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RMM wrote:

pilotdog68 wrote:
I ordered the 1405 instead of 1504, just for this! Is the HP version on the same pcb with different components? or different altogether?

Different PCB, but only slightly different.  Two diodes instead of one with an extra input capacitor pad. 

Also, you need a Coilcraft inductor for this one, and it needs to be in a host with a pill design that is big enough and beefy enough to carry the heat away from the driver.  I wouldn’t stick this one in a P60 or something small.  


Ok. I got my pcb’s for the 17mm, but I didn’t realize the parts are so pricey so I’ll have to wait a little bit to order those. (Thanks for putting up the parts kit listing)

I was going to only do about 3.5-4amp in my L2m, but eventually I do want to get one of the higher performance versions for my own uf-1405.

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vestureofblood
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pilotdog68 wrote:
RMM wrote:

pilotdog68 wrote:
I ordered the 1405 instead of 1504, just for this! Is the HP version on the same pcb with different components? or different altogether?

Different PCB, but only slightly different.  Two diodes instead of one with an extra input capacitor pad. 

Also, you need a Coilcraft inductor for this one, and it needs to be in a host with a pill design that is big enough and beefy enough to carry the heat away from the driver.  I wouldn't stick this one in a P60 or something small.  

Ok. I got my pcb's for the 17mm, but I didn't realize the parts are so pricey so I'll have to wait a little bit to order those. (Thanks for putting up the parts kit listing) I was going to only do about 3.5-4amp in my L2m, but eventually I do want to get one of the higher performance versions for my own uf-1405.

 

What kind of $$$ are we talking about?   Roughly what to you think it will cost per board?

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vestureofblood wrote:
What kind of $$$ are we talking about?   Roughly what to you think it will cost per board

The parts list and shopping cart link is in the OP.  Obviously the prices go down as you buy more parts, so you can figure it out yourself by increasing the amounts in the cart.  

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Any word on the 10 amp 3 or 4 cell driver? Smile

 

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Lol. Maybe with a DTP copper multi layer MCPCB board... or maybe we could install a sodium cooling system, like those used in nuclear power generation.  

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vestureofblood
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RMM wrote:

vestureofblood wrote:
What kind of $$$ are we talking about?   Roughly what to you think it will cost per board

The parts list and shopping cart link is in the OP.  Obviously the prices go down as you buy more parts, so you can figure it out yourself by increasing the amounts in the cart.  



Thanks.    I think the price seems reasonable, my problem is when I think about trying to assemble 50-100 pc of this ( about what I would need for production runs) my head starts to swim.    Its all I can do to get the single sided FET drivers together LOL!

Richard I hope that this driver takes off well enough for you that having some fully assembled boards done in large batches is feasible.    If you get the inkling to have a batch made in China let me know, I could take a few off your hands Cool

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has anybody built one of these drivers yet? I almost threw mine away as I didn’t realize the parts from RMM were taped to a sheet of paper Silly

I should have my toaster oven today so I might try this weekend. ADC values can be calculated from your google sheet, right RMM?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OFGFmolrQoM3xoGQRSz2wzirq5tuozPf...

I don’t have the parts in front of me so I don’t remember what R1/R2 you sent me, but I imagine it’s the standard calculation as seen on the google sheet when I have the R values.

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Quote:
has anybody built one of these drivers yet?

I didn’t build them, I grabbed the 2 RMM had on his “garage sale” listing.

RICHARD,

Is it just me, or is the mode change “tap” very short on these.
When I change modes, I have to tap super fast sometimes. My normal tap is too slow for it part of the time.

Mine have GuppyDrv, if that matters.

Just had a thought, maybe I got something on the memory capacitor. I’ll check that tonight.

Jim

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Blazer296 wrote:
Quote:
has anybody built one of these drivers yet?
I didn't build them, I grabbed the 2 RMM had on his "garage sale" listing. RICHARD, Is it just me, or is the mode change "tap" very short on these. When I change modes, I have to tap super fast sometimes. My normal tap is too slow for it part of the time. Just had a thought, maybe I got something on the memory capacitor. I'll check that tonight. Jim

The tap is indeed different than what you're probably used to.  I had to make it fast enough for guppydrv to work, so yours are pretty fast.  19.1K gives you a slower tap than 4.7K does.  I built the first ones with 19.1K, but it is a little too slow to consistently be able to get into guppydrv's mode select mode, so I started putting 4.7K on there.  ~10K would probably get you into an "in between" zone.  You could get approximately 10K by stacking two 19.1K resistors.

No matter what, the mode switching isn't going to be 100% the same as a "normal" drive because here we have a lot more capacitance and the MCU is being powered from the buck IC's output.

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Quote:
No matter what, the mode switching isn’t going to be 100% the same as a “normal” drive because here we have a lot more capacitance and the MCU is being powered from the buck IC’s output.

I never thought of it that way.
It works fine, just different from what I’m used to as you said.

I just wanted to make sure I didn’t mess something up.
(I have a tendency for doing just that)

I have GuppyDrv on many of my lights, and this made me wonder for a minute. Since I’ve played with it for a while now, its no big deal.

I may do a basic review in a couple weeks after I get the other one in a light and get some time with them.
I dont have much by way of test equipment, so when I say “Basic review” I mean basic.

Jim

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seasam wrote:
has anybody built one of these drivers yet? I almost threw mine away as I didn't realize the parts from RMM were taped to a sheet of paper Silly I should have my toaster oven today so I might try this weekend. ADC values can be calculated from your google sheet, right RMM? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OFGFmolrQoM3xoGQRSz2wzirq5tuozPf... I don't have the parts in front of me so I don't remember what R1/R2 you sent me, but I imagine it's the standard calculation as seen on the google sheet when I have the R values.

I've never done one with a toaster oven, but you're going to have to at least do part of it with something else, because it is double sided.  Make sure that there are no bridges on the MCU and buck IC pins, that they all have good connections, and that the buck IC has enough solder underneath the center thermal/ground pad.  I generally like to do this board with a hot air gun so I can watch and reposition everything if needed, as well as fixing bridges and adding solder while things are hot.  I would rank this board as being a step or two more difficult to properly assemble than a normal FET driver.  

I sent you 36K and 4.7K resistors.  I'd put a little more spread between the LOW and CRIT values than what you normally would with a DD/7135 driver, unless you just want it to turn off as soon as the cells are low.  The big difference here is that the amp draw on the batteries increases as they drain, while the DD/7135 drivers are putting significantly less draw on the batteries as they get low, so if you want it to step down levels before going all the way to the bottom and shutting off you need to use a bit higher LOW value.

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seasam
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RMM wrote:

seasam wrote:
has anybody built one of these drivers yet? I almost threw mine away as I didn’t realize the parts from RMM were taped to a sheet of paper Silly I should have my toaster oven today so I might try this weekend. ADC values can be calculated from your google sheet, right RMM? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OFGFmolrQoM3xoGQRSz2wzirq5tuozPf... I don’t have the parts in front of me so I don’t remember what R1/R2 you sent me, but I imagine it’s the standard calculation as seen on the google sheet when I have the R values.

I’ve never done one with a toaster oven, but you’re going to have to at least do part of it with something else, because it is double sided.  Make sure that there are no bridges on the MCU and buck IC pins, that they all have good connections, and that the buck IC has enough solder underneath the center thermal/ground pad.  I generally like to do this board with a hot air gun so I can watch and reposition everything if needed, as well as fixing bridges and adding solder while things are hot.  I would rank this board as being a step or two more difficult to properly assemble than a normal FET driver.  

I sent you 36K and 4.7K resistors.  I’d put a little more spread between the LOW and CRIT values than what you normally would with a DD/7135 driver, unless you just want it to turn off as soon as the cells are low.  The big difference here is that the amp draw on the batteries increases as they drain, while the DD/7135 drivers are putting significantly less draw on the batteries as they get low, so if you want it to step down levels before going all the way to the bottom and shutting off you need to use a bit higher LOW value.

In theory I should be able to reflow the small parts side and then do a second reflow with the inductor side. Ideally I would use some sort of SMD adhesive for one side before doing the other but that stuff is too expensive. I’ll report how it goes. Definitely won’t be a hot air gun first time around though. Which means I might fail Silly

I’m not sure what I’m going to put this driver in though. I wanted to put it in a Mattaus single emitter p60 shell I have, but it looks like the driver area is too shallow. If I had the non-coilcraft inductor it would almost fit but with the 6mm high coil craft it’s definitely a no-go. If the single emitter shell was made to different specs it could work with the non-coilcraft inductor. And while it would fit in a Mattaus triple… there’s not much point putting this driver in there. To me it only makes sense to use a 3A buck driver to push a big 6V emitter at a reasonable rate.

thanks for the tip on the LOW and CRIT values – that is a good point that the amps are increasing as the voltage drops. We’re not in FET land anymore :bigsmile:

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richard, can you please post some close up pictures of a built board on both sides. I have gone through and labeled each of the parts as I can.
Please check if the following is correct:
RSENSE – sense resistor
CIN – input capacitor
COUT – output capacitor
CMCU – mcu bypass capacitor
CVCC – vcc bypass capacitor
OTC – off time capacitor
D1 – flyback diode
R1- voltage divider resistor
R2 – voltage divider resistor
RDIM – dim resistor
PLDN – pulldown resistor
CMAX – Buck IC Bypass Capacitor

Is this right so far?

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RMM
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I don't have one built to take close up pictures of.  I sold them all.  Your pictures only show one side, but that side looks right.  

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I’ve only done one side. I just want to make sure it’s ok before I move on. I have to talk to OshPark. Of the 3 boards I ordered only 1 is useable. The other two have bridged connections on the FET.

Three tomatoes are walking down the street- a poppa tomato, a momma tomato, and a little baby tomato. Baby tomato starts lagging behind. Poppa tomato gets angry, goes over to the baby tomato, and smooches him… and says, Catch up.

RMM
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Which pins?  The three source pins always bridge.  That is a good thing. 

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Three tomatoes are walking down the street- a poppa tomato, a momma tomato, and a little baby tomato. Baby tomato starts lagging behind. Poppa tomato gets angry, goes over to the baby tomato, and smooches him… and says, Catch up.

RMM
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That's fine.  Reflow it up! Cool

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Ah, I gotta give it a break. Can’t get it to work. I think my issue is my connections at the MCU.

Three tomatoes are walking down the street- a poppa tomato, a momma tomato, and a little baby tomato. Baby tomato starts lagging behind. Poppa tomato gets angry, goes over to the baby tomato, and smooches him… and says, Catch up.

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