I ordered brass and AL host pill forms of 1504 to start.
My first impressions of the 1504s: Overall, not a bad light/host to build off of. The glass is OK, though there is much to be desired. There are notable casting inconsistencies on asphere side.
Definitely grease threads.
The pill configuration is the biggest limitation out of the box, though not something a workaround can’t fix. Once the LED can be brought to a level plane with pill top, a recycling aperture could be used—not until then. A shorter focal length lens would allow the LED to come up on the pill for it to work.
I’m going to whip an idea up for the 3D printer and try something.
UPDATE: Focus falls short of FL in ALL factory 1504 setups I’ve now tested. I’m sure you guys are discussing that already. My solution is to fix this problem at the bezel, not at the pill, for maintaining the factory lens. So I am going to first print a lens spacer-ring.
So we will need to mod pill a bit like adding copper chunk to make LED level with upper part of the pill? Other thing will be be a little problem (swapp main lenses with shorter focal length) cause they are hard to find.
It would be great if MEM will manage to made plug and play upgrades for this light but even if that will not be possible I already see 1mcd 1504 versions made by MEM :)
KKW made a small RA that fit inside the pill, and got a 20% gain. So it can be done but, with much less performance than the big RA’s you have been making & getting 50-70% more performance from.
A spacer + new lens + an RA sound complicated, but i am sure that is needed to get max performance out of the 1405/1504 platform.
If you can whip up a upgrade kit i am interested
Well I’m thinking go down to a better 60mm lens and use spacer. Just because that’s the good lens I see and it could outperform this stock lens potentially. The even larger one has a F# of 1+ so I think FL will be way too long with that lens, which leaves a 60mm.
Inside front bezel is about 61.25mm ID average. With a 60mm lens, lens holder covering 1.5mm around lens edge, puts you at 57mm. Not too far away from starting useable aperture. Close enough to make it worth the trial anyways.
That was freaking great. Every detail about what I am seeing with the factory lenses I had just written, and detail of the following processes to arrive at their expected gains explained.
I write out upgrade paths #1, #2, and #3 for 1504 that we can get to, with about 30 member (or 30 light) commitment, and apparently whatever button I clicked opened an HTML debugger I had no idea I had in Moz FFox. Which sent me back to writing a completely a blank post. Yeah, I need a moment before keyboard keys fly.
Will be back to re-write everything I just did. Lesson learned, never type the message you intend to send inside of the browser. |(
How about this as my post recap:
Stage #1. Short and sweet drop-in, factory lens AR-coated via vacuum desposition, 30 people needed at roughly ~$30 to get their lens processed and coated for 9-12% lux increase (plus shipping back). Top-notch AR process with “oleophobic” top-coating layer to repel hand oils as well.
Stage #2, 15-20%+ lux gain, 3D printed lens adapter, precision lens, same AR-coating as above, $100 drop-in kit boost.
Stage #3, includes stage #2, plus custom copper pill, plus 3D printed reflective aperture mount stage + broadband coated reflective aperture, ~$175. 50-60%+ lux gains (~750kcd 1504s). This would also require you to take the non-optical hardware components up to maximum drive potentials with your driver+de-domed LED to reach such high proclaimed lux values. Without the optical additions, though, and your 1504 limitation will remain around 400-500kcd average as it has been. Again, the magic number is about 30 commitments for this.
These are approximations. For stage #2 to be final, I have to complete testing with the lenses I ordered earlier today to be sure FL is no issue in the 1504s, which based on specs—it shouldn’t be. But I still must confirm this. I will get more accurate details, but I am just about certain these will be close to actual costs to go forward with such upgrade paths.
P.S. I will be updating the “Poll thread” I started on the multi-head multi-LED light for tripod use that was in question a few days back. I will update later tonight with further details about those projects. I will have some photos showing some progress and a comparison aspheric build next to a little 1504. Stay tuned if interested. Would you be interested in a powerful multi-LED spotlight if it was somewhat large and required a tri-pod?
Language barrier bothers me so it is hard to me to follow completely... So I will have few questions?
- Is expected throw(750kcd) in 1504 with XM-L2 or XP-G2 emitter?
- Does this upgrades needs to be fitted by us or you will sell complete upgraded 1504(all done by you).
- Will zoom out function work in ra modded 1504?
- I don't know if I understood this well but if we go straight to stage 2 build(new AR coated lenses with adapter) than we don't need stage 1 build (factory lens coated with ar vacuum desposition, I see problem for non US residents in posting lenses to you forward/backward post which should rise stage 1 to about 70$.
This also confuses me: This would also require you to take the non-optical hardware components up to maximum drive potentials with your driver+de-domed LED to reach such high proclaimed lux values. Without the optical additions, though, and your 1504 limitation will remain around 400-500kcd average as it has been. Again, the magic number is about 30 commitments for this.
I really don't understand so I really looking forward for your new thread "1504 upgrades"...
I fixed the link and I have the “MEMorized” J20 posted there for size next to a 1504.
Yes, when I lost everything that I had typed, I was in a scrambled panic to re-type what quick detail I could, as I had to get going shortly after. My apologies for the lost detail.
Good questions.
For those in the USA, shipping would not be very much going back to you, in a well padded small box via USPS Priority, probably $6 or so. If you want to stick with the 1504/1405 build of light which you have, but are looking for a cheap ~10% boost in lux, we need to get a bulk of these lenses into a vacuum deposition chamber to be ultrasonic cleaned and then coated. That is the cheapest route beginning an optical upgrade path.
What I mean when I say “take your hardware up to maximum drive potentials”, is that I am proposing a lens system upgrade which will effect the optical-side of things, but to get your light to 750kcd+, you would need to drive the LED properly with the proper driver, correctly de-dome and use that LED. Basically I am stating that these mods are LENS mods for efficiency, not driver/electrical mods. Both have to work together to reach such high numbers of output.
If you are asking me about LED size, this host size is the size for an XP-G2, all the way. XM-L2 should be for 75mm+ lens and bigger heatsink sized host. BUT, that is strictly personal preference when going there. If you want less kcd and more light coverage, the L2 is entirely your option. Don’t expect continuous lux to be as high with the L2 as it would be with a G2, though. Less power to cover less die area is going to lead to a cooler LED and light, therefore average kcd numbers will be higher with XP-G2.
For option #2 I was going to explain much more about that. Currently it is my prediction those will be the gains in that setup but I can’t be too certain. The new ground lens should be here in a couple days for me to yield final test results against the factory lens. I do know that the lens I am replacing it with is much higher quality, without drastic visible mold voids on the glass. Which you do have to look for closely to see. Once you find them though, you can see why the stock ~67mm lens is a poor lens when you have a quality one by its side to compare surface quality to. Ripples and waviness go away. One common test I do with all of my lenses is look at image formation on a surface from the lens, taking light from far away into the lens, and focusing the image close (at FL) on a white paper. The image formation is very poor with the stock lens. Lacks great deals of contrast. This shows me that the lens doesn’t have a very optimized focal point for all incoming incident rays. Coating will not fix this physical problem. Regardless, whatever output you are getting with the factory lens—it will only go up in output once coated. So while it may not be the best lens after hearing me speak of it, coating it for some gain is cheaper than buying another lens. If you are really trying to stay on the budget side, that is the way to go.
Option #3 will be whole overhaul basically on light. New pill design with new lens so that no matter what, output will go far higher than stock using RA setup. I’m not offering to assemble each one per se, but if someone needed it, I’ve always built lights for members, so I’m not against it.
First I await the new lens, then I will go from there upon posting those results with output data .
I take it the RA would be printed with an SLA style 3D printer and not a filament style? Do you have a plan for how to polish them already? It sounds like you’ve made them before, if you’re willing to share any details with me here via PM or the thread in regards to the geometry, I might see if I can machine one on my lathe. The 20% limitation on the small collars I’ve made so far has me confused as to why bigger RA’s work better when a small one should be better at returning more light to the LED surface without loss.
I have been wondering the same thing about the size, to me it seems like it would be the opposite because any imperfections in a larger dome would be more likely to miss the phosphor due to the longer distance they have to travel. I could of course easily be overlooking something.
Also Kloepper have you documented your RA attempts anywhere, my search fu is failing me. I’ve been thinking about trying to build one and was planning on using a known sphere like a ball bearing to lap the dome. If that method works would be pretty easy lap a plastic RA like MEM’s.
Wouldn’t a cheaper option be to get a bunch of the fasttech 67mm aspheric lenses, i assume they are the same as the Uniquefire’s.
And to send them to be coated & then send them out, because shipping the original lenses to the US to be coated & back would be more expensive i think.
Anyway i wish i could afford to spend $175 to get a boost to ~750kcd in my 1504 but i can’t.
And if i had $200 to get a light in the 750-775kcd+ range now, i would actually get the ridiculous looking but amazingly throwing Eagle Tac M25C2 Turbo, with a XP-G2 S4 that can do 775kcd
But i am into this to get max performance for as little cost as possible, so my next mod/build i am interested in the 750kcd+ range, is the Coroui D01 with the 86mm kaidomain reflector mod
FmC got to 625kcd with the old R5 XP-G2, with the new S4 it could possibly even break in to the 800kcd range If i am not miscalculation something that is
I think i could build it for about $70
Coroui D01 $28
86mm reflector $19
XP-G2 S4 $4
Various lens hoods about ~$15
Copper mcpcb 32mm, maxtoch or noctigon $4
switches & wires i already have no driver for max performance
But i sincerely hope you get 30 to commit MEM, because it think it is a very interesting mod to the 1504/1405 platform. But i am not sure if we have 30 here who can mod the light to max lux performance AND who can & want to spend $175 to get to 750kcd.
But post about it in the 1504 GB thread & start a GB thread to gather interests.
I am still very interested in the MEM J20, because that is a performance range i can’t build myself, it looks great in the pictures & not as long as i thought it would be compared to the 1504.
My initial work with the collars is mostly in the 1504 group buy thread I think. I’ve been cautious about throwing out dimensions and such, partially because it’s basic geometry, and partly to stay under the radar. The waiven patents basically make any RA a potential legal liability, and I can’t afford to go to court for something that actually loses me money on my time (they take longer to make than what I charge is worth when I’ve put them on a light).
Oh don't be afraid... Your part does not look like that and you can declare it as car part/kitchen accessory or something else. They can't sew you for that. So I think you can send that to Cajampa without any legal consequences :)
They’re patent basically covers anything that reflects light back onto the LED surface to increase its output. It’s so broad it limits anyone developing anything even remotely similar.
Until someone copies it in China, where copyrights aren’t always exactly enforced. As you say it’s a fairly simple device and I pretty much know exactly how to make it, really the hardest part will be getting the exit aperture just the right size. I’ll look over the GB thread some more, just was wondering if you had thought of anything different machining wise. I can understand your reluctance on copyright issues but from my understanding there is nothing wrong with freely sharing information on how to build one yourself. What is most annoying about this is if they just sold the rings for a reasonable price they probably could sell tons of them and make more money than they do selling to the very select applications where it’s cost can be justified. Unless there is some application I’m unaware of.
First of all the metal that is chosen is why there is a big barrier at whatever percentage you guys seem to be stopping at. The barrier will insist you stay right where you are no matter how well you polish and sharpen that mirror image, because the metal is going to keep the photons it steals from the wavelength region you need them from.
RA size is to work out with the LED just like lens size. The same lens theory applies as to mirror surfaces here, you are just changing (overlapping) the ray trace direction in the model. So, some basic lens/reflector theory would be: consistency as applied to a hemisphere.
Think of stamping production, if a metal is to be used as the host mirror substance to be coated with reflector material. I.E. If a hemisphere with a 50mm radius is stamped in a pattern, and its true center can be up to 0.5mm off-center once stamped in the mold, we see that this is a 0.5% shift in spherical center vs reflective diameter. If a much smaller RA size is used, let’s say 10mm radius, and the host material shifts the same amount of 0.5mm in the metal press, the end product is 2.5% off from true center. This is a small example of how size plays out. Once “quality” or “optical grade” is reached in the component, you can see how size starts to play a smaller role as far as surface consistency is concerned. However, as the die is a real object, its maximum dimensions must be considered around focal length of the RA. Since a die corner is at a different distance than the die center is from the RA surface, for rays to land on those two areas, two different focal lengths are being used. As the RA becomes larger, the difference in focal lengths between two die points also diminishes as a percentage of absolute focal length. Since focal length is very important to land on, this presents significance in some situations where larger RAs are better to use.
Reflective surface shape is not hard to achieve at all—reflection of all LED wavelengths is what is hard to achieve. Silver doesn’t do this right, gold doesn’t do this right, aluminum (and oxides) can work indeed well, but still do not do this best for LED spectrum blue light. To tell about reflective coatings (as some people have PM’d me regarding the subject); the truth is that a typical or standard mirror coating is not what is wanted. Most standard coatings absorb too much high-energy colors in the blue spectrum (or other colors —how hot is your aperture?). A special mixture that is applied by vacuum deposition, to reflect specific wavelengths, is what my original RA design achieves the highest output numbers with, and is what I will be making more of. It’s also the design Wavicopyen started selling after I emailed it to them near 2007 to produce. lol
I’m not 3D printing my RAs to clear up any confusion there, though I would gladly print you some hemispheres you can attempt to hone. I am 3D printing their stages to mount on. I am trying to get an acrylic version run coated with a good reflector material, which isn’t cheap, and those will likely be “the ones”.
Trigonometry will give you the opening size, just remember that you need to calculate from the edges of the emitter surface to the edge of your hemisphere/parabola.
So you’re saying the limitation to the collars I’ve done in stainless steel is down to it not being a reflective enough material and limitations on perfectly focusing such a small collar then? If I made a dozen or so from aluminum what would it likely cost to have them coated with the depositions you recommend?
but amazingly throwing Eagle Tac M25C2 Turbo, with a XP-G2 S4 that can do 
are you saying that LOL Wavicopyen 