D.I.Y. Easy low amp triples for Convoy S2+, no spacer, no drilling....

I have been interested in triples since I saw them here on BLF. What is not to like? Three LED’s in parallel, lots of light, changeable optics, huge output… Like I said, what is not to like? I also like smaller lights, favoring the 18350 size over the 18650 for carry, but unfortunately, this comes at the expense of runtime as the 18350’s are not as power dense as the 18650’s….

So if you cannot bring up runtime with your battery, you will have to lower output…. So how low is low? What level is high not impressive enough or bright enough? What level do you really need? How much runtime is essential? Plenty of questions, plenty of answers, this thread is my view on these questions. Some of the things to keep in mind is that Lumen are not linear in their visual output. Double lumen does not look twice as bright… So going backwards and lowering amps does not dim as much visually as you would initially think.

This started with a BLF A6 driven triple I built. It was bright, but actually not that much brighter than the BLF A6…. I would say 35-40% more visible light. I knew, in theory, pulling just at 9A the XPG2 S4 2B triple would be around 3000 lumen, but it was not that big of a VISIBLE jump. I have seen it here on BLF that you have to TRIPLE the lumen to look twice as bright visually, so the 1500 lumen BLF A6 would be visually doubled by a 4500 lumen light…

Hmmmm… what to do with a triple now? I like the beam profile for up close, but why carry an 18650 sized light for up close work? Too heavy to use the hat-brim or cigar methods (in your mouth) for hands free light with an 18650, the leverage works against you from the length of the light… Must downsize triple to 18350 host…

I moved the FET triple into a S2+ 18350 sized host and was happy with it as a show off light. The runtime was abysmal. I was charging the thing daily if I was out poking around and marveling at the output. It got hot too… The 60 second turbo timer I got from RMM on the drivers was too long. 30 seconds was plenty hot… I ordered a 3.04A Qlite flashed with guppydrv for the adjustable turbo timer to fix the heat issue. Had to get another spacer for the build as well, the next host was waiting, another S2+ shorty.

The Qlite was impressive, still a lot of light, now “only” about 1300 lumen. I liked the adjustable turbo timer. Ironically, with only 3A, now I could set it for 60+ seconds and it worked fine without too much heat to hold. On group 18 in guppydrive universal, the modes are ML, 5, 15, 50% and 100. The 50 was most of what I used for “high” as it had a pretty good runtime for the light it put out… 3A out of a 750mah Keepower gives you about 15 minutes of theoretical runtime, so 50% gives you about 30 minutes…

3A gives you around 1300 lumen, 1.4A should be around 500+ lumen, still a lot of light for most uses and on a 18350 gives you just over 1/2 hour of light on high. I found some AK-101-A1 1.4A drivers I had ordered a while back from Fasttech. With a blob of solder, they are three mode drivers. I figured I would give them a shot. They are single sided, so all that I had to do was solder on a spring. They are also able to use the retaining ring on the S2+ host, so no having to solder in the driver, I dislike soldering in a driver. I fitted one to the S2+ pill and made my low amp triple.

Using a Keepower 750mah 18350 gives the following levels and runtimes: Low is 5% or about 70ma which gives about 10.5 hours runtime, enough to use as a nightlight, maybe 10-20 lumen. Mid is 30% or about 420ma which should give about 1.75 hours runtime and about 200 lumen. This is enough light and time to change a tire and signal oncoming cars, take a long walk, etc… High is 500+ lumen and 30 minutes of runtime, depending on the LED’s used. This is still a pretty good amount of light in an 18350 format. Using an 18650 sized host and a 2500mah battery the run times go up to about 35 hours on low, almost 6 hours on medium and 1.75 hours on high, pretty big increase if you have an 18650 host!

Now on to the fun part. I kept looking at how to bugetize the triple build. You have to buy the triple LED, so the cost is more than a regular emitter swap… You have to buy a spacer and optics, the spacer moves the MCPCB and optics up enough to mate with the O ring where the lens/reflector was and still keep the driver spring in contact with the battery. Basically the cost over a build with a single emitter was the higher cost of the triple LED MCPCB, the spacer and optics… You also have to drill a hole in the middle of the pill to pass the wires through. The triple LED board has the wires come from the center to the solder pads, instead of the edges like a regular single emitter board. What could I do without?

This low amp build did not get warm at all… The heat was just not being generated at a rate to heat up the light from the outside… even on high. Looking into the head of the S2+ the threads for the pill go pretty far in, about .5” from the front of the light. The parts not used in a triple build are the reflector and the lens. I thought about using the reflector and filing it down as the spacer, but decided against it. I just put the Noctigon directly on top of the pill. There is a 2mm wide rim around the top of the pill that this sits on, should be sufficient for what little heat will be transferred at 1.4 A… Now there is also a plus to this as the pill no longer needs a hole drilled in the center! Simply route the wires through the side holes, bend them 90 degrees and run them to the center of the pill and up through the center hole in the Noctigon.

THE STACK UP

Compared to stock pill stack

No spacer needed, no hole to be drilled, this saves about $5 for an aluminum spacer or $10 for the copper one. Plus the time to drill the pill, or if you want you can drill it, either way works… To get the space built up in the front of the light, reuse the lens in front of the optics. The only leftover from this build is the reflector. I have taken to using a glass lens in front of the optics in my triple builds anyway as I can torque down on the pill without breaking the optic… The lens, then optics, then Noctigon on top of the pill allows the pill to screw tight and if you are using a long enough spring, no issues with the battery losing contact. I had to stretch the first spring I used, it was slightly too short. I pulled one of an old P60 driver I had, it was about perfect. A standard Qlite spring would be too short, just a heads up.

Now for some BeamShots

Left= 1.4A S4 2B XPG2 Center= 1.4A Nichia 219C 5000K Right=Qlite 3A Nichia 219C at 50%

Left= 1.4A S4 2B XPG2 Center= 1.4A Nichia 219C 5000K Right=Qlite 3A Nichia 219C at 100%

Outdoors Beamshots
Order is:
Qlite 3A Nichia 219C at 50%
Qlite 3A Nichia 219C at 100%
1.4A XPG2 S4 22B at 100%
1.4A Nichia 219C 5000K at 100%

Really not much difference visually, the pictures show less, but pictures are hard to replicate for brightness.

The lower Vf LED’s like the Nichia 219C will be more efficient than what I listed with the XPG2’s, but you are not really going to have to worry about heat with the Noctigon and a 1.4A driver like you do with them in a FET build… Spring bypasses will increase the efficiency, but not the output significantly. In this case you will get more runtime than output increase with both springs bypassed, lowering resistance in the electrical path. I haven’t bothered to do spring bypasses yet.

Personally, Nichia 219C triple, a AK-101-A1 flashed with Guppydrv and the 10507 optics will run you $20 over your host cost ($10 to $15 for Convoys)to make one of these, these are all from RMM’s shop Mountain Electronics for this example. This is what I would do for an EDC in this set up. I like guppydrv and the 219C has a very nice tint. The traditional route with a spacer adds $5-10 and having to drill the pill.

The lowest cost option for trying this is from Kaidomain a 4C triple (not DTP) and the 1.4A AK 101 A1 from Fasttech. This would run you $10, and a few weeks of waiting for them to arrive, over your host cost.

Another use for this kind of set up is a hunting/Night vision light. You could set it up as a triple red, triple green, or triple blue LED light for your needs. Now you can even get S2+ in all of those colors from Simon at his store or other places… The original blue color is available as well… The three levels should give you plenty of options for light level even with the colored LED’s. The driver has Low Voltage Protection and would be good for a loaner light as well.

I have only done this in the Convoy S2+ long and short versions, so I do not know if any other hosts will screw in far enough to NOT use a spacer for a low amp triple. Good luck and thanks for contemplating a low amp triple, I like their advantages and I hope this inspires someone that does not have a triple to go and make one. If you get bored with the output, go buy a spacer and a FET Driver or Qlite and swap them out, you are a modder now….

EDIT: Updated OP With shopping list below

That is a great idea!

US stuff… Mountain Electronics links (non affilliated of course)

Triple mounted LED’s

Nichia 219B

Nichia 219C

XP-G2 S4 2B

XP-G2 S2 5A3

Driver (select your own firmware, I love me some guppydrv!)

Optics

Narrow

Narrow frosted

Medium

Wide

[Elliptical](10510 Carclo Lens - 3-UP Elliptical shaped beam for bicyclists)

For International orders intl-outdoor.com

Driver

Optics Narrow only, the most useful one anyway in my opinion…

XP-G2 S2 2B

XP-G2 S3 3D

XP-G2 S2 5A3

Nichia 219B

Nichia 219C

The cheap route, but will take time for shipping

Driver Fasttech (my current staple driver, always good to have a few on hand)

Triple boards from Kaidomain, THESE COME WITH OPTICS…

Nichia 219A

XP-G2 R5 4C

XP-G2 S2 1A

thanks for sharing!

sometimes its necessary to remember that 80% of the goal can be reached with half the effort.
and you are still satisfied.

Very nice build thread. I really like high cri nichia’s in triples.

Nice mod, I have done the same as you but with a 16mm noctigon to fill the blank, soldered into the brass pill and sanded down to reveal the copper and then soldered the triple mcpcb on top. An extra step is required as the hole needs to be drilled.

Without the spacer, and using a short springs and no glass lense, think you can fit an 18500? Likely, not, but it would boost runtime if it could be jammed in there.

You can indeed jam an 18500 into an S2+shorty host but the pill needs to be cut in half to gain the needed space. Even then it's a pretty tight fit.

I almost went that route, but figured with only 1.4A I would try it the easy way. Your way will have some great thermal path with all that work. I think the Noctigons have done a majority of the work keeping LED’s cool, even just by themselves. I wouldn’t push a build like mine past 2A total anyway, so a 6x7135 driver would work too, but I have trouble finding longer springs that fit the double sided drivers.

Just for the beam pattern for an EDC type light, I like the triples. Very good flood and still enough throw for everything but spotting a cat in a tree…

The super bright aspect is still available if you want, just buy a FET driver and a spacer later if you want to upgrade… But in a 18350 light the runtime will suffer… or you could transplant it to a18650 sized S2+ and go for broke….

Give it a shot can, the low cost option is $10 and a little waiting… make sure you get the parallel board from Kaidomain, they have a series one as well….

I just got a 36 minute runtime off the 219C version I built. This was with a SoShine “1000 mah” 18350. Once it rests, I will throw it on the Liilokala and see how many Mah it actually takes to recharge…

EDIT: 836mah on recharge after rest. This calculates to a .59 hour of runtime, about right considering the cell was 4.14V going into the test (had been sitting) and is now 4.21V after rest.

By the way, when holding these and using them, they only get a little warm…. The 219C version tailstanding for 20 min is pretty warm, but 30 seconds in your hand brings it down to just warm…

ReManG,

Many Thanks for your informative and well written article.

Particularly appreciated the photo’s comparing the 2 pill assemblies.

Timely, as I was recently mulling over some of these points, as I have Convoy S2+ Hosts and some triples already made up.

You may well have motivated me to get some assembled now!

Cheers,
Splott-Light :slight_smile:

What is the cheapest way to get an 18350 length triple host? I think Simon’s S2+ mini’s are the cheapest, are there any others?

I had been looking, but for the $10 or less you will spend on a S2+ host, you can’t go wrong…. The others all seem to require some work or finagling to get the parts to fit right, none of that with the convoy hosts, just drop the parts in…

I built mine very similarly and mentioned them here. In my case I soldered the triple to the pill. Heat transfer doesn’t seem to be a problem from the emitters to the host as it gets hot very quickly. I run FET+1s in them with no problems other than the usual heat-induced timing issue.

These seem to be one of the few mods I’ve done repeatedly that work out well.

I should find some cheap hosts. I’ve got a bunch of Luxeon Rebel triples I got for a song. They don’t take much power, 1A max, so a 3A quite would be more than enough to drive them. Add some big protected Panasonic 18650s and they would be great to have in a drawer for power outages. Lately I’ve been looking at my modded lights realizing that they would all blow up or run out of juice within twenty minutes, so I’ve been digging up my AA lights and charging my Eneloops…just in case.

To make it easier still, can you make a shopping list? With possibly, links to RMM’s shop? That way we can see the items costs and total in a list format.

All I need are the hosts. I’ve had the triples for ever. I’ve got tons of Qlites I rarely use any more, and 18650s all over the place. All stuff that’s sitting around doing nothing. Once I build the lights, they’ll sit in drawers doing nothing.

That is a great idea!

US stuff… Mountain Electronics links (non affilliated of course)

Triple mounted LED’s

Nichia 219B

Nichia 219C

XP-G2 S4 2B

XP-G2 S2 5A3

Driver (select your own firmware, I love me some guppydrv!)

Optics

Narrow

Narrow frosted

Medium

Wide

[Elliptical](10510 Carclo Lens - 3-UP Elliptical shaped beam for bicyclists)

For International orders intl-outdoor.com

Driver

Optics Narrow only, the most useful one anyway in my opinion…

XP-G2 S2 2B

XP-G2 S3 3D

XP-G2 S2 5A3

Nichia 219B

Nichia 219C

The cheap route, but will take time for shipping

Driver Fasttech (my current staple driver, always good to have a few on hand)

Triple boards from Kaidomain, THESE COME WITH OPTICS…

Nichia 219A

XP-G2 R5 4C

XP-G2 S2 1A

Sounds like you need to start giving away some lights…. Hit up your local volunteer organizations like Rescue teams or Red Cross…. The pet shelter people need lights too… LOL, not my lights, so I have plenty of ideas….

Seriously though, I will have to take some of my own advice…

That is cool, I did not think of soldering the noctigon… I am not laying claim to this of course, I was just tickled that a 1.4A driver is sufficient for a decent EDC triple in the short S2+… Thought I would write it up to inspire others… Now I want to paint my optics too…

I’m always waiting for a power outage, but it never seems to happen. I’m ready though. I have lots of eneloops powered lights to lend my apartment neighbors. They all come knocking at my door when they need lights. I don’t tend to lend out LiIons.

I’m interested in any output gains you may notice. I worry a little about tint shift with different paint colors. Maybe silver on the cones and something else on the flat. How about a coating of glow-in-the-dark paint? That should blow away any mere o-ring.

Perfect! Thank you!

If you look on the triple in the OP, there are big curves of the Glow On tape (strontium aluminate) and they leave much more glow than any Oring (see my avatar)…. The middle section is some of the Glow on paint in the center of the optics on the inside.

I have been experimenting with epoxy and strontium aluminate powder from THIS buyer on the ’Bay and just mixing it in. It works, but I have less than a stellar record for getting epoxy where I want it and having it stay there before it sets… I have a feeling this would work for any clear drying glue… The greens and yellows are the brightest and longest glowing, if you are going to get some, the bags are small, but you do not need much to add to the epoxy or other clear glue. I think Epoxy is not best on the optics and will try some clear acrylic or water based craft paint when I get around to it.

Do you have any idea how the powder you referenced compares to this stuff on amazon?