Prototype 3 arriving 7 of 7 now!! The Q8, a BLF premium edition SRK type monster flashlight

8834 posts / 0 new
Last post
kiriba-ru
kiriba-ru's picture
Online
Last seen: 2 min 54 sec ago
Joined: 01/17/2016 - 02:34
Posts: 949
Location: Russia

Tom E wrote:

kiriba-ru wrote:
Just spent few minites and make some calculations (to make youself sure that this fins will increase total host area by 1% or less).

Well is the 1% added where 99% of the heat is? I don’t see the relevance of total host area.


Funny you are.
Well, if you want to have 100500 lumens for 10sec., you are right. There will be great difference in temperature of parts and main profit will give dtp pcb.
But if you wait 20-30 minutes all parts of light will have same temperature with 5 deg.C from pcb to tail. Same tepmerature of whole host means same difference between host (heatsink) and surrounding area and same influence on heat transfert whenever you increase host area.

The Miller wrote:

Is there an example of a good flashlight that is using this kind of design?

imagebam.com

EasyB][quote=Tom E wrote:

For example, with D=55mm, d=4mm, p=4mm, and 5 fins, approximately 6908mm^2 of area is added, and this increases the surface area of this section of the flashlight by a factor of 3.

10*3.14*(55^2-51^2)/4=3330mm^2=33sq.cm., that allow you put extra 1.5W-2.0W for long time.
For example Ф50*135mm tube is 3.14*50*135=21200mm^2=212sq.cm.
Your fins are much more that 1-2%, but there is no place for 5 extra fins (5*4mm fins + 4*4mm place between them – where did you find 36mm of free place?)

Meanwhile in Russia: https://twitter.com/CrazyinRussia

pilotdog68
pilotdog68's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 2 days ago
Joined: 05/30/2013 - 23:31
Posts: 6323
Location: Held against my will in IOWA, USA

All very good arguments, but frankly, without making huge changes to the overall design of the light, it’s not going to make much difference.

Including this: Unless you are in a cold climate, you won’t be able to leave this light on max for 20minutes without over heating. It’s simply too much power in too small of a package.

That’s what makes it fun!

My Favorite Modded Lights: X6R, S8 , X2R , M6, SP03

Major Projects:  Illuminated Tailcap, TripleDown/TripleStack Driver

EasyB
Offline
Last seen: 5 hours 38 min ago
Joined: 03/09/2016 - 15:24
Posts: 1038
Location: Ohio

To clarify, in my calculation the pitch, p, is the distance from the start of one fin to the start of the next fin, so it includes the fin and the space between the fins. So 5 fins would be roughly 20mm.

d is the radial depth, like if you put a ruler perpendicular to the flashlight surface. With d=4mm, if the OD is 55mm, the diameter at the bottom of the fins would be 47mm.

The Miller
The Miller's picture
Online
Last seen: 4 min 44 sec ago
Joined: 12/14/2015 - 12:08
Posts: 7559
Location: Charente France

Wauw!
That Lux-RC (search image Wink ) is art! That is a very cool design

Did I read something about adding a little bit of length?
A few of these extremely deep fins between led area and driver area would certainly help in cooling

But would it still be a soda can light?

Did I mention I am very tired? Haven’t slept more then 1 hour last night due to splitting headache so I could be getting carried away a bit too far here Wink

SawMaster
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 11 hours ago
Joined: 05/03/2015 - 17:18
Posts: 1758
Location: SC USA

Another part of the ‘fin equation’ is how machining/turning works. With square-cut fins the tool only cuts on it’s one end; easy to make/maintain/use/set up and is durable. Tapered fins use tooling cutting on two sides at once; more costly tool/harder to use and maintain/cannot cut as quickly/harder to set up properly/higher wear on tooling. Thus probably an increased cost, which we’re probably pushing the limits on now. Numerous thinner fins would work better too, but would be much more easily bent or damaged.

A good discussion and interesting, but I fear it isn’t going to happen here due to cost. And no reasonable amount of change to the finning will make this light run cool enough to walk away from in operation so at best you’ll only get a little more time before ramp-down needs to happen. In the end everything is going to boil down to cost, which many have noted they won’t accept any substantial increases of. But if the Q8 team wants to try for different finning I’m still in.

Phil

kiriba-ru
kiriba-ru's picture
Online
Last seen: 2 min 54 sec ago
Joined: 01/17/2016 - 02:34
Posts: 949
Location: Russia

EasyB wrote:
To clarify, in my calculation the pitch, p, is the distance from the start of one fin to the start of the next fin, so it includes the fin and the space between the fins. So 5 fins would be roughly 20mm.

Have you ever seen passive heatsink with 2mm between fins? All such fins dont work at all (X6 and etc.).

Meanwhile in Russia: https://twitter.com/CrazyinRussia

EasyB
Offline
Last seen: 5 hours 38 min ago
Joined: 03/09/2016 - 15:24
Posts: 1038
Location: Ohio
kiriba-ru wrote:
EasyB wrote:
To clarify, in my calculation the pitch, p, is the distance from the start of one fin to the start of the next fin, so it includes the fin and the space between the fins. So 5 fins would be roughly 20mm.
Have you ever seen passive heatsink with 2mm between fins? All such fins dont work at all (X6 and etc.).

Ok. It was really just an example to clarify the terms in my calculation.

DBSAR
DBSAR's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 days 23 hours ago
Joined: 02/11/2013 - 23:28
Posts: 4230
Location: Ontario, Canada

I don’t remember if i signed up for one, but check to see and put me down for one.

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

deathless
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 24 min ago
Joined: 11/01/2013 - 02:05
Posts: 89

When this light is done, can we also design a nice belt pouch for it?

I bought a military flash bang pouch to keep the Supfire M6 from Richard and that thing BARELY fits in there. I had to loosen the strap on the buckle all the way to where it only goes through one opening like this:

pommie
Offline
Last seen: 18 min 52 sec ago
Joined: 08/28/2013 - 03:56
Posts: 726
Location: Corio, Victoria, Australia

Eye keeping on you I am

Cheers David

Nothing to see here folks, move along...

 

The Miller
The Miller's picture
Online
Last seen: 4 min 44 sec ago
Joined: 12/14/2015 - 12:08
Posts: 7559
Location: Charente France

DBSAR I am sure you are on the list already.

Yeah a major overhaul on the fins that adds costs and starts the process of getting the outside to look as we want again does not seem a good idea.

I hope people wanting a pouch and have a srk know of a fitting one !)

lostheplot
lostheplot's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 57 min ago
Joined: 08/09/2012 - 07:29
Posts: 343

[quote=MRsDNF]I have just finished building a quad SRK up to test Tom E’s driver and find out what sort of spread the XPL emitters would give in this light.
I’ll start with the driver. Wow. What doesn’t this driver do. I’m probably the last person to ask to test a driver like this as I get lost in my driveway let alone try to get my head around the workings of this driver. I’ve been playing with it outside in the shed, the driver hooked up to an led and my power supply and got so lost.
I eventually had everything together to assemble the SRK when I dropped the lens and yes it shattered, me as well.
The light is now operational after waiting nearly three weeks for a lens. I started with this light. The XPL leds sit on 16mm Noctigons which themselves sit on a 5mm plate. The depth of the head was machined to suit the above stack. 20AWG wires channel the current to the leds from the Narsil driver which has the latest firmware. The stock springs in the tailcap were given a bypass with 18AWG wire.
Back to the programming. I was still lost and had all sorts of modes working but had no idea how I got there. Yes I did have the instructions in front of me.
I took the instructions inside along with the light to a warmer part of the world than outside and sat down in front of the TV in my comfy chair (no pun intended Smile ) and the instructions clearly laid out in front of me.
No luck. There was just to much going on with flashes and my poor brain not deciphering the flashes they were seeing.
Looking up I could see the light flashes reflecting on the tv screen (the tv was off). H’mm, starting again I watched the reflection of the flashes on the tv and it all of a sudden made sense. For some reason my fuzzy brain could decipher what the eyes were seeing on the tv screen, yes today the tv was a real idiot box.
The difference being was that I could clearly see the light and count accurately the flashes to work out where I was, working with the instructions.
awesome light steeve
and the comfy chair heh

MRsDNF
MRsDNF's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 52 min ago
Joined: 12/22/2011 - 21:18
Posts: 10919
Location: A light beam away from the missus in the land of Aus.

I wonder if there related, this comfychair that is? I hope he’s ok as he hasn’t been around for awhile.

My current and or voltage measurements are only relevent to anything that I measure.

Budget light hobby proudly sponsored by my Mastercard and unknowingly paid for by a hard working wife. 

djozz said "it came with chinese lettering that is chinese to me".

old4570 said "I'm not an expert , so don't suffer from any such technical restrictions".

Old-Lumens. Highly admired and cherished member of Budget Light Forum. 11.5.2011 - 20.12.16. RIP.

 

pscal
Offline
Last seen: 6 hours 17 min ago
Joined: 01/06/2015 - 11:34
Posts: 48
Location: Arkansas

pilotdog68 wrote:
All very good arguments, but frankly, without making huge changes to the overall design of the light, it’s not going to make much difference.

Including this: Unless you are in a cold climate, you won’t be able to leave this light on max for 20minutes without over heating. It’s simply too much power in too small of a package.

That’s what makes it fun!

^ I agree with this. The light is just too powerful for its size to be able to run constantly on high. In my opinion, proper thermal regulation in the driver is the only way to prevent overheating in a small, high power light that is available to the masses.

pilotdog68
pilotdog68's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 2 days ago
Joined: 05/30/2013 - 23:31
Posts: 6323
Location: Held against my will in IOWA, USA
deathless wrote:
When this light is done, can we also design a nice belt pouch for it?

I think this is a good idea. It would have to be a separate accessory for cost reasons, but I think Thorfire could make a good one and sell quite a few

My Favorite Modded Lights: X6R, S8 , X2R , M6, SP03

Major Projects:  Illuminated Tailcap, TripleDown/TripleStack Driver

Tom E
Tom E's picture
Offline
Last seen: 18 hours 54 min ago
Joined: 08/19/2012 - 08:23
Posts: 9785
Location: LI NY

I've got some nice mil pouches that fit SRK's well. Posted bout them wayy back. The Molle 2 clip pouch works well, even one for grenades fit -- hhmm... undecided

spkzzz
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Joined: 07/12/2016 - 09:14
Posts: 10
Location: Varna,BG

Add one more for me, please Smile

Fritz t. Cat
Fritz t. Cat's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 hours 47 min ago
Joined: 05/07/2013 - 00:33
Posts: 2534
Location: Si Valley

I am not thinking in terms of surface area but in terms of air flow. Air is a terrible heat conductor unless it flows. Alternatively, we could eliminate the fins, but I think they look silly with an obviously wrong shape.

Flashlight designers should look at lighthouses and pottery.
这些谁设计的手电筒应该看灯塔,以及在陶器。

The Miller
The Miller's picture
Online
Last seen: 4 min 44 sec ago
Joined: 12/14/2015 - 12:08
Posts: 7559
Location: Charente France

Yes air that cannot move insulates
Hence glass/stone wool for insulating houses.
Yet the shape of any fin means air will start moving and thus even square fins are to be preferred over no fins.
One highly special light with an unique finning structure is very nice to see. Yet most flashlights have the square finning and if other more expensive to make finning would make a real difference I kind of think brands like Olight or Nitecore would use them since they not only have the R&D to test it, a few extra bucks would be no problem for their customers.

Caleb
Caleb's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 hours 35 min ago
Joined: 03/13/2016 - 01:28
Posts: 277

I’d be ok with a longer light for added heat absorption/dissipation.

The Miller
The Miller's picture
Online
Last seen: 4 min 44 sec ago
Joined: 12/14/2015 - 12:08
Posts: 7559
Location: Charente France

OP updated with

Here goes new info on the version 5 of the driver we aim for.
Now isn’t this a thing of beauty?
After a lot of busy PMs Pilotdog68 has created V5 of the driverboard.
Special thanks to DEL for the help and scoping!
Reason for changing:

Version 5.1 board:

Oshpark link:
https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/uK4XziVN

kiriba-ru
kiriba-ru's picture
Online
Last seen: 2 min 54 sec ago
Joined: 01/17/2016 - 02:34
Posts: 949
Location: Russia

Fritz t. Cat wrote:
I am not thinking in terms of surface area but in terms of air flow. Air is a terrible heat conductor unless it flows. Alternatively, we could eliminate the fins, but I think they look silly with an obviously wrong shape.

The Miller wrote:
Yes air that cannot move insulates
Hence glass/stone wool for insulating houses.
Yet the shape of any fin means air will start moving and thus even square fins are to be preferred over no fins.
One highly special light with an unique finning structure is very nice to see. Yet most flashlights have the square finning and if other more expensive to make finning would make a real difference I kind of think brands like Olight or Nitecore would use them since they not only have the R&D to test it, a few extra bucks would be no problem for their customers.

1. Do you imagine minimum distance between fins and minimum fin area/distance proportion to start process you are talking about?
2. Do you really think ribs can help to desperse more heat with same heatsink area?
3. Do you think that thousands of industrial lights manufactures, electronic devices manufactures and others who use rough formula 1W heat=20sq.cm to estimate heatsink/case dimentions are complete noobs?
Such fins:
imagebam.com
can desperse 10W for long time:
imagebam.com
Is anybody still sure that talking about adding extra 20-30sq.cm. from ribs to 50+W flashlight is a good idea?

Meanwhile in Russia: https://twitter.com/CrazyinRussia

The Miller
The Miller's picture
Online
Last seen: 4 min 44 sec ago
Joined: 12/14/2015 - 12:08
Posts: 7559
Location: Charente France

OK the manual clearly states:

Quote:
Never leave the flashlight ON unattended. The Q8 is not a toy, do not let children play with it. Hold it when in use to monitor the temperatures and turn the light off or switch to a lower mode when it starts to become really warm. Turn the Q8 off and let it cool if it gets hot.

Then, for the most part we rely on liquid cooling.
As soon as the temperature of the housing rises above the hand temperature blood will take away heat.
OK we get this is not enough to keep it cool on turbo.
But is there any 4000+ lumens tube flashlight that can be run on highest mode without getting warm/hot?
The new Olight R50 seeker reaches 50C in just under two minutes and feels too hot to handle, the S70 and L6 need about 6 minutes to reach that temperature now (it is summer hereand warm)

We simply can’t make an extremely long and heavy tube of fins so it can run unattended on turbo till the cells are drained.
And well, if no other portable flashlight manufacturer does it on normal high powered production lights geared at the normal consumer, I don see why we would in a special light geared at modders and people who know about flashlights.

stephenk
stephenk's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 hours 42 min ago
Joined: 01/30/2016 - 05:09
Posts: 783
Location: Brisbane, Australia

The L6 can run with no heat issues on high at approx. 1300 lumens. If you can beat that output with no heat issues then you are doing well!

The Miller
The Miller's picture
Online
Last seen: 4 min 44 sec ago
Joined: 12/14/2015 - 12:08
Posts: 7559
Location: Charente France

Check this post of Tom
Setting it lower at 1300lumens means even less heat and power consumption.

Tom E wrote:

Ok – I did a 1 hour test at a 35% setting, as I documented in the manual. I left the light tailstanding the whole time of the test at room temperature of about 74F. For 35%, it uses the 7135 at max, and 27.5% PWM of the FET. I’m a few hundred miles from home, so don’t have my light meters/box or an IR temp gun, but I’d say roughly between 30 mins and 60 mins, there wasn’t any bump in the temperature of the head judging from feel in the hand. The head of the light was the hottest part, and it was on the high side of warm, but I feel it was perfectly safe. I’d say a child would feel uncomfortable holding it at that temperature, and maybe many adults that are not used to this as well. I could hold my hand on it and get used to the temperature. There was warmth felt on the battery tube as well, but I pulled the batteries quickly and they only felt slightly warmer than room temperature.


A mildly hot, or very warm temp will scare many, but I know these components can take a lot of heat, specially with copper DTP’s.


I’d say roughly the light was giving off 1,600 – 1,800 lumens, based on calculations. When I get back home, I do have to adjust all the rated output percentages I specify in the mode sets. I’m pretty sure the 35% is over-rated, since it’s based on 10% being the full 7135, where in reality it’s probably ~4% for a 4X SRK. The 35% might be more like 31%. The original percentages were based more for a single LED light.


Also, according to the blinked out voltage level, the batteries went from 4.1v down to 3.9v, which doesn’t seem bad for 1 full hour at 30-35%. The batteries are Samsung 30Q button tops.


 


 

Tom E
Tom E's picture
Offline
Last seen: 18 hours 54 min ago
Joined: 08/19/2012 - 08:23
Posts: 9785
Location: LI NY

kiraba - no one thinks a few more fins, or a few more cm's of surface area will solve the problems of dispersing 60W of heat - adequately for a full discharge time, which would be about 1 hour with turbo timeout disabled. Would it help? Would it allow the light to run safely at 25% power for 4 hours? Where's the cutoff? What's the definition of "safe"?

We already have a turbo timeout feature. Is it enough? We could add temp monitoring using the internal temp sensor - is it accurate enough to be practical?

I would say we go as far as we can go with finning without adding cost or sacrificing anything significant (size, esthetics, etc.). But my vote at this point is for no more changes and end of these discussions - we need to get/keep the ball rolling, we need a true prototype/sample from the manufacturer.

We can't do any heat tests til we get a prototype and I can tweak the turbo timeout, and possibly do some testing on temp monitoring/adjustments.

DB Custom
DB Custom's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 hours 20 min ago
Joined: 01/13/2013 - 22:28
Posts: 14963
Location: Heart of Texas

2.6mm wide fins, 2.6mm wide gap. Square cut. 4747 lumens triple running from a 32650 TrustFire. It’ll run til the cell is dead. I’ve run it on Turbo on 12 minute walks to the road taking the trash out, it get’s pretty warm but won’t burn the fingers.

Diameter is 48.5mm, the only deeper fins are at the emitter shelf area, 16.5mm in overall length with 3 fins, 4 gaps. Large copper heat sink threaded in that is made light engine style with the emitters mounted on top and driver in a driver bay at the bottom. Works really well.

You can’t say that more/deeper fins and more mass won’t work, because it does. The TrustFire TR-J20 has a plethora of cooling fins but the lower ones don’t tie in to where the heat is coming from. By machining a large aluminum heat sink to take the heat down to those lower fins the light is capable of dispersing the heat from 268 watts of power.

I made a similar heat sink and a finned extension tube for Richard and he pulled 34,000 lumens from the big TR-J20. Fins and mass, that’s what it’s about.

Realistically speaking, the Q8 won’t be able to disperse the full power available for a lengthy amount of time. A longer finned section with deeper fins would help, but wouldn’t solve the compact nature of this light.

Dale

The Miller
The Miller's picture
Online
Last seen: 4 min 44 sec ago
Joined: 12/14/2015 - 12:08
Posts: 7559
Location: Charente France

What a beautiful light Dale
Do I understand correctly that it has 1 big cell and this a nice thick walled tube?
It does run longer then 12 mins (or how long does it take to get the cell down?)

DavidEF
DavidEF's picture
Online
Last seen: 4 min 39 sec ago
Joined: 06/05/2014 - 06:00
Posts: 4598
Location: Salisbury, North Carolina, USA

DB Custom wrote:
2.6mm wide fins, 2.6mm wide gap. Square cut. 4747 lumens triple running from a 32650 TrustFire. It’ll run til the cell is dead. I’ve run it on Turbo on 12 minute walks to the road taking the trash out, it get’s pretty warm but won’t burn the fingers.

Diameter is 48.5mm, the only deeper fins are at the emitter shelf area, 16.5mm in overall length with 3 fins, 4 gaps. Large copper heat sink threaded in that is made light engine style with the emitters mounted on top and driver in a driver bay at the bottom. Works really well.

You can’t say that more/deeper fins and more mass won’t work, because it does. The TrustFire TR-J20 has a plethora of cooling fins but the lower ones don’t tie in to where the heat is coming from. By machining a large aluminum heat sink to take the heat down to those lower fins the light is capable of dispersing the heat from 268 watts of power.

I made a similar heat sink and a finned extension tube for Richard and he pulled 34,000 lumens from the big TR-J20. Fins and mass, that’s what it’s about.

Realistically speaking, the Q8 won’t be able to disperse the full power available for a lengthy amount of time. A longer finned section with deeper fins would help, but wouldn’t solve the compact nature of this light.


…AND it’s Titanium – not good for thermal dissipation.

Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it. Do not count on them. Leave them alone.
-Ayn Rand

The Miller
The Miller's picture
Online
Last seen: 4 min 44 sec ago
Joined: 12/14/2015 - 12:08
Posts: 7559
Location: Charente France

Yeah Dale adding almost 3cm with fins would certainly help
Also using 1 cell and thus having a very thick (finned) tube would again certainly help.
Yet it would become a completely different light Wink

Pages