I would love to buy tools from a respected company if they were cheaper, at the expense of materials quality and quality control.
I would rather buy from them than from the Chinese fakers, even at twice the price of fakes.
But quality tool usually cost many times the cost of fakes, with no actual value for the casual user.
It's just killing me every time I buy a fake or a knockoff product from China at 3$, because I know the original would cost about 30$ here, but I don't need the quality or durability of the original, just its functionality for one or two time use.
Most quality tool manufacturers actually have a cheap line. But its usually built in china and no better than the no name stuff you can buy.. but several times the price.
I tend to buy cheap stuff, too. Only on things that will get a lot of force (compressed air impact driver, ratch, nuts..) I prefer buying Hazet, Gedore, Proxxon and such.
They have a reputation to uphold. If Snap-On, Matco or Mac started producing a low end tool I for one would be furious. No matter where I'm at or what I'm buying, if it has those brand names on it, it is a quality product. I'd hate to have to wonder is this the real thing ..
It would offend you to know just how many "Made in USA" products are more Chines than American. The F.T.C supposedly set a standard as to what "Made in the USA" actually means. (roughly ) X percent of a product must be manufactured in the US. Or X percentage of the cost of a product must come from being produced,assembled,or packaged in the U.S. And those percentage are far lower than one would expect...
To put it in simple words, you get what you paid for. As those fakes or easy-to-broken products as described by you they are all sold at very low price aren't them? Just like most people, when I buy a $3 tool I don't put high expectation on its service life compared with something that cost $30 :)
Me at 71 I just buy junk tools anymore because I just may not be around to use them for long.
At 25 when just married in 1965 I bought Craftman 1/4 inch socket set and my wife was not happy about it. I still have both and still use the socket set for lots of things around the house, on our cars and bikes. I still have some of my Zaddies tools and use them. I have two china flashlights that are Great. China does make good items under usa brand names.
I have tools for, plumbing, electrical, framing of houses and ladders etc. Need to start selling some stuff.
Spent 30 days in Israel ten years ago. Wife told me you Know Israel better than San Antonio, Texas LOL.
Well, I would expect the low quality items to be clearly marked as low grade so there would be no mistaking the quality line from the low quality line.
Here in Israel, many years ago, we used to have clothes and shoes marked "grade A" or "grade B" according to quality. As most people preferred buying "grade A" products, and as "grade A" products' quality slowly deteriorated, we no longer have this grade A/B markings (well, some manufacturers stamp "grade A" on their products but it is meaningless). Anyway, "grade B" usually meant something was defective with the item, maybe a little torn, maybe stained, but mostly it meant "could be defective" due to lack of quality control, and at least people had the choice to buy something that was low quality but with a good baseline.
Maybe it's just here, where most hardware stores overcharge for everything or just hold high quality products alongside extremely low quality Chinese products with nothing in between, but it's just frustrating to either buy something very expensive locally or buy something of lower but not junk quality from China.
And I would guess if the quality companies just removed the quality control and allowed slightly defective products in the market, they could sell them for a much lower price and compete with Chinese fakes. This can happen with almost no change to production lines. With some change to production lines they could even change materials (e.g. from high to low grade steel) and reduces prices even more. And since their production lines are already made for high quality products, I guess even without quality control and with lower grade materials the quality would still equal or surpass high quality Chinese fakes.
TadpolePilot, I know what you mean. I have some tools my late grandfather bought (or made!) some 50 or 60 years ago and they're still working and look like they will hold for many more years. But I don't want to spend that much money on tools I don't really need. If I have something I know I'll use a lot, or just need to stress it a lot, I would buy a high quality product. I'm 32, buy the way.
And I hope you'll visit again and enjoy like you did last time. :) Have you been to the ancient cities of Megiddo, Hatsor or other Tells? I just love these sites, I wish I had chosen to be an archaeologist instead of studying computer science.
Blue Point is the Chinese branded Snap On, years ago it was about 1/4 of the price until everyone caught on. But you still find Blue-Point for cheap on eBay sometimes from people that know nothing about them.
I like to buy 2nd hand tools from eBay, the older American, British and Australian tools are tough as nails.
Also I have my eye on some of the JEGS socket sets (just sockets - no ratchet), the site is down at the moment but from memory it was $20 and they have a life time guarantee.
I am jealous of my brothers father inlaw's collection, nearly every weekend he goes to multiple garage sales and looks for nice tools for dirt cheap.
Trouble is that these days, at least here in the UK, the lines are becoming ever more blurred. There was a time not so very long ago when you could be reasonably sure of getting what you paid for in terms of quality, now it's more of a lottery. I find this applies to all items these days, from clothes to cameras to tools.
Quick example: a friend went to The States a couple of years ago and very kindly brought me back a Levi denim jacket. I hate brand snobbery but Levi are still a respected name in denim so quality should be assured. Well, not any more. The moment I tried on the jacket it felt different, thinner material and somehow flimsier than my old one. It was like a totally different company had made it, but it was from a reputable NY store and a genuine item.
Same thing with tools, even the so-called 'professional' ranges from respected brands. Wiss aviation snips, Bosch power tools - although frustratingly, SOME Bosch items seem good while others are cr@p - Nikon camera lenses.. I have found that nothing is reliable any more. And of course the other side of this is that just ocassionally you can get astonishingly good quality items for a true budget price. Trouble with that, of course, is you can't possibly rely on it..
Why? Because me and my dad once destroyed a nut we lent from someone else because we didnt have the right size. A 32mm nut shouldnt look like a palm after a little harder treatment. Cant imagine what would have happend with an impact driver instead of a 1m extension.
Whenever it comes to high torque or fast spin, I want reliable equipment. But ofc. you cant buy everything from Hazet or Snap-On as DIY'er. So I limit it to the more "dangerous" or important stuff. Good example are also saw blades. We bought a rather expensive skill saw when we started renovating the house. On top, we bought an expensive saw blade (about 100€ I think) but that thing cuts so smooth and clean and lasts forever. I dont know how many thousands of hours it has been used, but its still in perfect shape.
For Levis.. you still kinda get what you pay for. I only wear Levis jeans and they cost more than other, but I never managed to destroy one. Bosch prof. (blue line) is better than green but still far away from the real prof. companies. Sometimes there is no obvious sign like a color to see if its good or cheap. You have to know, see or conclude it from the price..
And you still can be sure to get top-notch quality. But that costs more than most are willing to pay. :)
Ohh!! I read your comment the other way, thought you were saying "I tend to buy cheap stuff too Only on things that will get a lot of force.." So you buy expensive tools where they'll get a lot of force! I didn't see the full stop in your sentence Makes more sense now!
As for the Levi's thing, I'd have to disagree somewhat. I thought they were always ok, but no better than any other decent brand and therefore not worth the extra. Just my opinion, of course.
Re still being able to get top notch quality (I assume you mean tools) well yes, I guess you can. You're right about paying vastly more for them, though, and I'd suggest that quality control is one area where they try to save money, i.e. even with a top brand, top price item it's still more likely than in the past that you'll get a 'dud' (although less likely of course than with an ultra-budget version of the same tool).
Possibly worse than that is sample variation. Again, if you pay top dollar the odds increase in your favour, but it's far from certain that one won't get a tool (or flashlight, etc) that seems ok, but just doesn't perform quite as well as it should do, and we may never realise that we're not getting quite what we payed for. At least with a DOA you know straightaway and can get a replacement.
When my Grandma died, she still had many of the same household items, (saucepans, laundry mangle etc), that she'd received as wedding presents more than half a century earlier. I can only dream of the quality that people enjoyed as 'normal' in the old days. Guess I'm getting old. Sigh..
We rented a car and went all over we saw the subject and always stopped and picked them up and took all at the stop and took them where they were going. They all looked like our children, we loved them All :) !
Some spoke great english and told us where to go and gave us directions. And some took us on back roads and once we were stopped for a flock of sheep/goats I do not know which.
In Ellot we rented a motor cycle and rode up to the Egypt boarder and visited Israeli Defence Force at their guard shack they enjoved our visit as we did.
We went to the Golan Heights, the fence, Megidito, Acre, we went to a wedding in the Crusader Castle started 6:00 pm and lasted till 6:00 am, famous battle sights, Safat, we stayed in 3 kabutz's, and hostels in Telavive, Jersulem small cheap hotels.
We carried all our stuff in backpacks, went to washaterias every 7 or 8 days. We went to the markets and bought food we could eat without cooking.
went to the Kotel everyday we were close enough.
Israel is a world leader in so many fields can not mention them all.
Did I tell you I love Israel.
Oh, forgot I used my Craftman 1/4 inch socket to take down a pool slide my wife did not want.
@Lensman: Haha. :D I wondered about the part you colored.. but well, its the internet, so sometimes we "talk" past each other. ;)
Maybe Levi's in Germany are different? I dont know, I've been wearing them for years now, and aside from a perfect fit (I'm tall and thin, so most normal pants dont fit) I just like the buttons (I'm a 501 guy), the looks and the quality. Of course, everybody makes different experiences. I'll keep buying them. :)
You may be right about quality control even for top-brands, but(!) I never ever heard/read about a Gedore or Hazet nut failing. They just couldnt afford a single fail, because their perfect tools justify the price. If they had dulls, too, you could go with any other company. Sometimes QC is that good.
But I fully agree with your last paragraph. Just make a quick search on planned obsolescence..
TadpolePilot, sounds like a great trip! Maybe I should do it myself... :) I've never traveled for more than a few days in row, I guess a month trip would feel a lot different.
Any metal tool that should file, saw, cut, hit, pry, pull, push, or hold all has to have one thing in common.
The hardening and annealing proces. Despite that all the tools that do these things has a surprising variety of ingredients in the metal to enhance or subdue certain qualities the hardening/annealing processes must be controlled strictly within certain limits. And one of these limits is time.
What that "time" means is that an ordinary plier needs many hours in a hot oven at falling temperatures to harden and then anneal right. Some metal tools needs a week in a hot oven to do what they do. That oven consumes a lot of energy for a long time and that is a large part of the cost.
Using the right metals and then skimping on that process would nullify many of the qualities of the often expensive mix of metals.
And how can you make a plier cheaper othervise? You could increase tolerances in the machining process. All sharp edges. A center bolt that either increase the needed force or is so loose that the prongs dont match up. Or they only touch at the tip no matter how much you press.
So skimping here is no good.
So why do I buy B-flashlights? Because I have had some poor experiences with 2 big name brand flashlight companies and their quality control and customer service. Not to mention the outlets I bought those lights at. I called one of them and was more or less told I was stupid and a lier. Same went for one of the big name companies.
So I have not gone back into that territory since. I am never with just 1 light anyway if I need a light (Safety & security policy) and I never bring lights I dont trust into those situations. 1 is none & 2 is 1 and all that :-)
Makes more sense now!