Why isn't there something larger than a P60?

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peteybaby
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Why isn't there something larger than a P60?

When I learned about P60 drop-in modules, I thought that was a great idea, especially for people like us who need to have the latest and greatest but don't want to spend buckets of money on each new LED.  But the P60 format has its problems... so why isn't there a larger-format standard similar to the P60?

I've heard of a D36 module size but I don't see them mentioned much.

I would think that amongst members of this community at least, there would be great demand for a modular light that includes these features:

- drop-in modules of a diameter somewhere around 40-45 mm. (big enough to allow for some beefy heatsinking fins on the flashlight head, and big enough to let designers make throwers if they want to)

- drop-ins screw into head for much better heatsinking.

- head diameter is large enough so that it doesn't look weird mounted to an assortment of different bodies: 1x18650, 2x18650 end-to-end, 2 or 3x18650 side-by-side, 3 or 4xAA side-by-side, 6 or 8xAA side-by-side and end-to-end, like Fenix TK45, etc.

- design allows for bodies with switches in tailcaps, or switches on side of body, or rotating ring.

Don
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The Chinese seem to have settled on a 52mm dropin which will mostly fit in a Mag, but is designed for 2x18650 lights like the WF-500.

 

The numbers from my light tests are always to be found here.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ApkFM37n_QnRdDU5MDNzOURjYllmZHI...

peteybaby
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That's exactly the light I have on order (since late November).  Can't wait for it to arrive.  I was hoping that size of drop-in was standard, so I asked a question on another forum but nobody replied.  If this drop-in size is somewhat of a standard, at least amongst Chinese mfrs, that would be good enough for me.  I just wish they made the drop-ins screw into the heads so people wouldn't have to fiddle with aluminum foil and stuff like that.

I ordered a 5xXR-E R2 drop-in for that light, (waiting for that since Nov. too) mostly to tide me over til a 3x or 4x or 5x XM-L drop-in is available.  That XM-L drop-in will probably be available before I receive the parts I ordered.  Sad

old4570
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Yeah Im not so sure ..

One Xm-L is 10Watt [ maximum ] 

x that by 3 = 30Watts  and x by 5 = 50Watts     Hmmm , 50Watts  8.4v [ 2 x 18650 ] = 6 Amps hmmm  

Lets try 12.6volts  50Watts  for 3 x 18650 = 3.96 Amps [ thats still a lot ] and battery matching will become critical , or we will see more battery accidents .

Lets add one more 18650 = 16.8volts  50Watts = 2.97Amps [ and that still a lot ] even with 4x18650 powering 5 XM-L emitters is going to put a serious strain on batteries ..

If we went parallel , and there are 3x18650 parallel lights out , 4.2v  50Watts = 11.9 Amps , wow !!!!  thats 4 Amps per cell , a 1500mA IMR is not going to last very long at all . 

And any other cell , would be at risk from serious internal damage and then possible self destruction ...

So for 18650 ??  

AA's ??  , Possibly 25500 or Larger Cells , but cell matching would be again critical ..

Ever seen the damage a CR123A or 18650 does when it goes boom ?  a 25500 or larger would be far worse possibly ...

You need to use great care with seriously powerful multi cell - Li-ion - lights , people buy cheap cells , that simply cant do much more than 2A without being stressed and then fain surprise when the batteries self destruct   .

 

Ignorance is bliss till something blows up !  

Im not sure who is going to be brave enough to risk the liability , the Chinese are very poor in Liability or occupational health and safety !  So maybe one day in a crowded place a multi cell light might go boom , and all hell will break lose over Li-ion .  Right now , things are sweet ..  But just one ignorant user , bad timing , and back to AA's [ God forbid ] 

 Always remember , the easiest thing in the world to do , is to expel hot air from your lungs and through some vocal chords ..
The resulting sound may , or may not be worth listening too ….

 

peteybaby
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All good points, Mr. Old.  I was hoping for a 3x or 4x or 5x XP-G at first, but the XM-L sounds like it beats the XP-G on most fronts.

How about if we underdrive the XM-Ls, like the XR-Es are hopefully underdriven in the 5x XR-E R2 module I've got on order?  Please excuse me if I'm not understanding things well, because I don't know the technical specs of these LEDs, but if I have a 5x XR-E module, wouldn't I get more output using a 5x XM-L module that uses the same driver?

I'm not looking to get 4000 or 5000 lumens out of a 5x XM-L light.  I'd be super happy with half that, and satisfied with even 1500 or so.

Sorry to hijack my own thread, but...

if I have a 5x XM-L module, and each LED is driven at 1A, and the Vf is 3.x Vdc, that's 3.x W per LED, or maybe 17 W total, approximately.  Divided by 2x18650 (8V approx.) = about 2A.  That's not so bad.

Is an XM-L driven at 1A going to give me more output than an XR-E or XP-G driven at 1A?

Oldienea
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In another thread, we discussed already about driving an XM-L at 1 amp only. It seems a XP-G R5 would give more output a that level than the XM-L.

As far as I know, DrJones already modded a 5xR2 to XP-G. We might better ask him, what he's thinking about.

old4570
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Well the XP-G S2 S3 should be out 2011 , so 1.5A and under the XP-G might still rule the roost .

Xp-G vF @ 1500mA could be 3.5-7 lets call it @ 3.6 = 5.4Watts x 5 emitters = 27Watts 

Now 27Watts is doable ....  2x18650 8.4v = 3.21Amps   Lets try 3 , for 12.6v = 1.5A and thats very doable ... 

 Always remember , the easiest thing in the world to do , is to expel hot air from your lungs and through some vocal chords ..
The resulting sound may , or may not be worth listening too ….

 

Oldienea
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old4570 wrote:

Well the XP-G S2 S3 should be out 2011 , so 1.5A and under the XP-G might still rule the roost .

Xp-G vF @ 1500mA could be 3.5-7 lets call it @ 3.6 = 5.4Watts x 5 emitters = 27Watts 

Now 27Watts is doable ....  2x18650 8.4v = 3.21Amps   Lets try 3 , for 12.6v = 1.5A and thats very doable ... 

Now it's only about to find a driver for this, which feeds 1,5A insted of the 1A of the original one.

old4570
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Hmmm , depending on how you set up the emitters , there are several to chose from ...

And of course the light , set up etc ...

DX sells a few drivers , as does KD , if you go single mode , no reason you could not use anything from 1 to 5 drivers depending on your set up ..

[ Batteries - voltage input - etc ] 

Im just trying to save a little money , and get a lathe ...   Hmmmmm , lathe goodness !  and then some serious mods , like tripple XM-L , with each emitter driven at about 2A , for hopefully about , 1800Lumen OTF , with some 25500 Li-ion . I think that could work in a 2C-Mag .

 Always remember , the easiest thing in the world to do , is to expel hot air from your lungs and through some vocal chords ..
The resulting sound may , or may not be worth listening too ….

 

Oldienea
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old4570 wrote:

Hmmm , depending on how you set up the emitters , there are several to chose from ...

And of course the light , set up etc ...

DX sells a few drivers , as does KD , if you go single mode , no reason you could not use anything from 1 to 5 drivers depending on your set up ..

[ Batteries - voltage input - etc ] 

Im just trying to save a little money , and get a lathe ...   Hmmmmm , lathe goodness !  and then some serious mods , like tripple XM-L , with each emitter driven at about 2A , for hopefully about , 1800Lumen OTF , with some 25500 Li-ion . I think that could work in a 2C-Mag .

Yes, a lathe is on my wishlist too since a long time. No chance to get one for a good price here on the island. I must wait til I'm back in europe.

old4570
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http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.20330

I was thinking two of these might do the job in a mag mod ,, Paired up they should deliver 2A [ or close too ] to 3 XM-L emitters with 2x25500 or 2x26500 Batts 

http://www.kaidomain.com/SearchResult.aspx?SearchKey=25500&CategoryId=-1&SiteId=1  25500

http://www.kaidomain.com/SearchResult.aspx?SearchKey=26500&CategoryId=-1&SiteId=1 26500

http://www.kaidomain.com/SearchResult.aspx?SearchKey=26650&CategoryId=-1&SiteId=1 26650

Im itching to buy a 2C-Mag , itching bad , even just one of these drivers with a single XM-L and 2x25500 would just rock hard ...

 

 Always remember , the easiest thing in the world to do , is to expel hot air from your lungs and through some vocal chords ..
The resulting sound may , or may not be worth listening too ….

 

brjones
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There is something of a standard, just that for some reason, sellers aren't making replacement modules. I suspect that the pill which comes in the Spiderfire P7, is compatible with the Ultrafire C8, and a host of other variants by other manufacturers (Aurora, Smallsun, Yezl, et al). They also appear to use the same tailcap, as you see the identical-looking tailcap being used in lots of places, even on the big WF-500 (not that it's a good tailcap--it's not).

 

The outer diameter of the threads of my Spiderfire P7 pill, by the way, is 23mm. The flare at the top of the pill is 24mm.

 

Drop-ins ("52mm") ARE available for the WF-500 and there are a lot of other variants which can take it, and I think is a different animal. The drop-ins for those I see are a lot bigger than the screw-in pill on my Spiderfire. I think the WF-500 may be loosely based on the Mag Industries MagLite, but is not directly/easily compatible from what I know. I personally am not interested in multi-cell lithium cobalt cells (or multiple any cells) unless there's really a compelling reason, so all my f'lights so far are singles.

 

I think it's a pity the screw-in "C8" type modules aren't being sold, but I think you can buy the empty pills, and the modules themselves seem pretty easy to modify, and I may upgrade my P7 to an XM-L.

 

The OP is right, the P60 (D26?) module has kind of lived past what it should, meaning it's served us well, but it's long been time for a better standard. The P60 has many flaws for LED's which didn't matter much with incandescents, or even enhanced them, such as bad heat management. The P60 is too long and narrow to provide wide spill (hence they can't very well be used on headlamps, which is why you don't see them--plus the heat issue). And yet it's also too small to provide good throw, LOL. It's good if you're a cop shining a light in a driver's eyes to intimidate them and not let them see your face if they decide to go the distance and sue you and the police department for your harrassment and violation of their rights. Small enough for a cigar hold in one hand while you hold your Glock pistol in your other hand and try to remember not to rest your finger on the trigger like they taught you in training, so you don't accidentally drop someone who hasn't become a threat.

 

With P60's, most of the heat goes to the (tiny) pill first, THEN to the emitter, and only THEN to the flashlight head, and then ultimately to the body. Lots of times, it doesn't get that far and things overheat. In today's world where there's an emitter which will produce whatever amount of light you want if you have a battery which will drive it, things are pushed to the limit with P60's, and frankly it's kind of amazing that some of these XM-L's are doing as well as they are! Like 12+ watts into a P60... never thought I'd see that as routine!

 

While I'm at it, manufacturers ought to start looking at "C" width for new flashlights. We need the extra capacity, and the extra current it can provide. 18650's and 16340's are narrower than any self-respecting reflector or head, leading to a complex and asymmetrical flashlight design. Flashlight bodies and heads could be the same width with wider cells. That would reduce cost and increase performance. I personally would like to see SINGLE 26500 lights (C size, AFAIK), as they'd actually be SHORTER than 18650 lights, yet higher capacity and having a smoother shape. Ever try to take 2 or 3 of the same kind of flashlight and rubber-band them together, to see what multiplying output looks like? If the heads are wider than the bodies, it's annoyingly difficult. If they were all smooth cylinders, it'd be easy to "stack" multiples of cells for cheap "lots-o-lumens" (and find a use those extra budget lights you probably didn't need, instead of springing for that next 'big' light).

 

As to Old4570's post #3, that an 5 x XM-L would have to be driven at 10 watts per emitter--no way. And to Oldie's early assertion that XP-G's would probably be brighter at medium to low currents... now that XM-L's are out, that turns out to be wrong, at least from my direct experience and that of others' I've read with actual experience. I've seen this propogated several times on this board and I wish that belief would snuff out. The XM-L is a fantastic emitter in most arenas, and kicks XP-G's butt at any reasonably usable current. My XM-L at 3 watts is as bright or brighter than my overdriven XP-G at 8 watts! I did side by side comparisons and measurements to make sure that what I was seeing was really true, because it was hard to believe. But it is.

 

I consider 3 watts nowadays "medium to low" current; even entry level single-die $5 crapola LED lights routinely consume 3 watts (and they're not bright; think of "MXDL 3W" with the "sunny side up egg" LED).

 

Cree rates XM-L's at "100%" at 0.7 amps, and I think that's at the Vf (which I think is 3.3v!). That'd be 2.31 watts. (Yes they say it's OK up to 3 amps, but they are rated/tested at 0.7 AFAIK.) And they rate them around 280 lumens at 0.7 amps(!!!). That is official Cree data!

 

So it is a myth that you need to drive an XM-L hard to make it worthwhile over an XP-G. I think we'll see small lights of lower currents cropping up with XM-L's, and they will be more desirable than similar ones loaded with XP-G's.

So let's take 5 x XM-L's, let's say running at 1 amp each, at 4 volts. So, let's just say 4 watts per emitter. I don't have the chart, but let's assume that 4 watts will output on paper around 400 lumens, or at very least close to it, maybe more. Just say 400L.

 

400 lumens x 5 emitters = 2000 Lumens!

And that's using 20 watts between two 18650's, so 10 watts per cell, or 2.5 amps per cell, which is quite safe for a healthy Li-Ion, being only a draw of 1C. Li-ion I think is generally considered OK up to 2C (not that I'd recommend that)?

 

So... 2000 lumens, at 2.5 amps per cell, with 2 cells. Does that sound good to you? Show me the flaw in my logic or how five XP-G's (or anything else) would be superior to this at this amount of energy, including price as a factor. Go out and try to find a reasonably-sized 2000 lumen flashlight. You can, kind of. They will be cutting-edge HID flashlights and most of them will cost several hundred US dollars; some will cost $1000 or more. And they will all use two 25500 or 26500 cells (most likely the latter), not that that is a bad thing, but two of those + the guts makes for a really big flashlight.

 

So, according to my estimates, the world is crying out for a 5 x XM-L 52mm drop-in. And frankly I can't see why it's not made, since XM-L emitters are wonderfully inexpensive (I still see P7's going for more!! What is that!). And yet to upgrade your 5 x R2 52mm drop-in, between the $26 for the WF-500, and the $34 for the drop-in (now up to $60), at say $9 per XM-L star that's an extra $45 cost just to begin the mod--not to mention time and effort! I think they could mass-produce the drop-in for sale at $50-60 easily.

 

As it is, reports of a well-driven XM-L versus the 5 x R2 DX drop-in, isn't enough to sway me to buy a WF-500 + drop-in. I hear it's brighter and throws better--but by how much? Maybe 200 lumens? From what I'm hearing, I'm holding off until an XM-L or at least XP-G (not XP-E, mfr's!) version is available. If someone wanted to make these by hand, they could have a little cottage industry I think. I don't think even Nailbender on CPF is making them. I estimate the parts would cost about $60, including drivers. Even sold at $120, many would buy them (I wouldn't). But even at that markup, with the cost of the WF-500 included, it'd be far cheaper than any decently sized 2000-lumen flashlight out there.

 

And Oldie is right about one thing: a 5 x XP-G has been done (saw the CPF page on it yesterday). The one I saw however, I think was built from scratch. The guy keeps tinkering with it and I didn't see beamshots or measurements, but it was impressive. I forget who it was but he put it in a mag-lite and it looked very custom. I think it'd be way easier to modify a 52mm drop-in with driver already onboard... BUT choosing the drop-in would be critical so you get one which drove the emitters properly (I saw a 5 x Q3 drop-in at Tmart rated at only 5 watts[?!]; maybe they meant 5 amps?).

 

<Sigh> Maybe I can inspire someone on the 5 * XM-L : ) .

And maybe I can inspire a mfr to start making single-cell 26500 flashlight hosts with interchangeable emitter modules.

- Circumcision, regardless gender, by definition causes sensation loss, and thereby usually causes difficulty later in life. Oppose amputation of children's genitals. ALL children. http://tinyurl.com/haszs6o

old4570
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The only problem would be drivers ..  There are some good one about , Butt @ $50USD +  and + shipping ..

There was one I was interested in and it would have been $80USD for the driver alone , another $75USD for emitters , batteries about $50USD , Heatsink about $25USD , then a charger , the host to mod , and I thought that $250USD + for a flashlight , was a little unrealistic ... 

So I built a single SSC P7 mag mod , which I still have . [ Still mean to put in that 5 mode driver ] And it works great . 

Would love to build a multi emitter [ I have enough redundant XR-E emitters now ] maglite , but there is still the driver issue , a blinding single mode , or use a rocker switch and several drivers and just have one LED powered , or all LED's powered or some sort of combination , or have 3 emitters on a multi mode driver and kick in a few more emitters with the rocker switch for Turbo mode ? 

And that means a lot of wiring , do you incorporate all the drivers or bye pass on Turbo ?  [ yeah , given it some thought ] 

Thats why ATM Im thinking 3 XM-L emitters with a rocker switch and several drivers , and maybe a tail clicky , so you could have low [ 1 driver 3A] med [ 2 drivers 6A ] High [ 3 drivers 9A ] 

This way the emitters would be fully driven on High .  

There is no right or wrong , just careful planning ! And some awareness of what the components can do .

 Always remember , the easiest thing in the world to do , is to expel hot air from your lungs and through some vocal chords ..
The resulting sound may , or may not be worth listening too ….

 

brjones
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Here is a link from 2009 of a guy who not just one but several 5 x MC-E's. Pretty hardcore stuff. After messing around with them, I think underdriven XM-L's are a game-changer.

 

This is kind of the opposite of everything I'm talking about, but blows you away:

"NiMH XX-Ray, an LED USL"

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=3021390

Check out post #6 for driver stuff... where he also says he did a triple SST-50! LOL!

I don't even know what a USL is! My guess is "Universal Service Light". Ha. Anyone else want to take a guess? Wink  "Jargon gone wild" did really bug me when I was a noob on CPF.

 

I noticed DX was selling new heavier-duty drivers. Apparently their code word for "high current" is "SST-50" <shrugs>.

"$6.90 - 8.4V SST-50 5-Mode Memory Circuit Board for Flashlights - DIY Parts & Tools driver"

http://www.dealextreme.com/p/8-4v-sst-50-5-mode-memory-circuit-board-for...

- Circumcision, regardless gender, by definition causes sensation loss, and thereby usually causes difficulty later in life. Oppose amputation of children's genitals. ALL children. http://tinyurl.com/haszs6o

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If you want good flood from a P60, build up a triple XP-G, heatsink it good, and use the Carlco medium or wide frosted optic.

You've gotta be good with a soldering iron but it's worth the effort!

Rich

"I am the flashlight king! I can light anything!"