need advice on LED recessed lighting

Other Types of Lights LED Light Bulbs
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Hi there. I need some advice from any of you who’ve installed recessed ceiling lights lately. I have six GU10 halogen recessed ceiling lights in my living room, but they’re in the wrong part of the living room (installed by previous owner, who arranged furniture differently). I want to add four more lights, and while I’m at it, I want to replace the halogen bulbs with LED, if practical.

I bought a couple of Philips AmbientLED 200 lumen GU10 bulbs from Home Depot, and I installed one this morning. When it’s on, surrounded by 5 halogen GU10s, everything looks just as bright as before. But looking up at the light, it seems that the LED light is significantly dimmer than the halogens. I will try again tonight with two LED GU10s and no halogens installed, and then quickly switch to two halogens to compare.

The colour temperature is 3000K instead of my normal favourite 2700K, and is much cooler than the halogens, but in partial daylight this morning it was hard to tell if it was acceptable or not.

Two problems: a) the existing fixtures are 3.5” diameter. Standard ones seem to be 4”, 5”, or 6”. I believe the 6 fixtures we have are a cheap 6-pack that you can buy as a set from hardware stores. I don’t think they’re meant to take standard trims/baffles. This might be okay though if we were to add four more fixtures of similar type and size, perhaps 4” ones.

b) the bulbs are not for closed fixtures. I didn’t know what kind of fixtures we had, but once I popped off a trim plate, I saw that ours are closed. Maybe all insulated ceiling type fixtures are closed, I don’t know.

So, in summary:

- I should not use these bulbs because of the overheating concern (although after 2 mins on max, the bulb I installed was fairly cool)

- they’re the only GU10 bulbs I’ve seen that may have acceptable dimensions and output (and I’m not sure if they actually do have acceptable output)

- other GU10 bulbs may come out tomorrow, that have higher output, warmer colour temperature, and are designed for closed fixtures, but it could also be 3 yrs from now.

- there is limited bulb selection of the GU10 type

- when we use these lights, they might be on maximum output all the time

  • therefore, I should not use LED GU10 bulbs yet

I’m going to add four fixtures, and I want all 10 of them to be the same or almost the same, so I’ll probably switch to standard 5” or 6” enclosures and use BR30 bulbs. There is greater bulb selection in the larger sizes, and the BR shape is supposed to produce a more diffuse light than the PAR shape. Home Depot describes the light from a PAR bulb as “crisp”. For our living room ceiling I prefer diffuse. Dimmable BR30 LED bulbs are at HD, but $40 each and 3000K. I may start with dimmable CFLs if they’re cheap, or just use incans temporarily.

One thing I’m not sure of yet: I don’t know if the LED BR30 bulbs are for closed or open fixtures. I didn’t think of reading the package on those while I was at HD. I would guess that even if they’re for open fixtures, it might be safer to use the bigger bulbs because the fixture itself would be bigger, and would be able to radiate heat better. Also, given the same light output, the bigger bulbs should produce less heat because they have lots of LEDs in them instead of just one (I think) in the GU10s, so they can run at lower currents where their luminous efficacy is higher.

A rough calculation: with our current six halogen fixtures, when they’re on at maximum output, that’s enough light for the living room (although they’re in the wrong places). If each one is 800 lm (not sure if that’s accurate), that’s 4800 lm total. When we have 10 LED lights, I only need each one to be about 480 lm. The BR30 ones at HD are 650 lm, so we wouldn’t need to use them at max output very often, and when they’re dimmed down, they’ll run even cooler.

Yeah so that’s what I’m leaning towards right now: replace everything with 5” or 6” fixtures and use CFL or incan bulbs until LED bulbs are 2700K, designed for closed fixtures, don’t buzz when dimmed, can be dimmed down to 5% or lower, and are $10. :slight_smile: What do you guys think?

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You will be waiting a very long time for that to happen.

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See my thread: My adventures in LED home lighting There is a link to an Ebay seller that sells lots of 6-10 high quality LED bulbs. These are Home Depot store returns. Those lots have been selling for around $80-$100 lately (about twice what they got when I was buying bulbs). I bought over 200 bulbs from them and have had only one fail. In the last two years, I have not replaced a single bulb (I was replacing at least one bulb a week).

By far, the best GU10 type bulbs that I have seen are the GU10 version of the Sylvania 10W PAR16 bulbs (http://assets.sylvania.com/assets/Documents/RETRO047.5a5abdb2-1ba5-41aa-8795-1e2cfcd193a2.pdf) They are around 500 lumens and use 4 XML leds. Unfortunately, most places sell them for around $105 ea (list price is $239!!!). Contact EVS Supply in Richardson, TX (http://www.evssupply.com). They have them for a FAR more reasonable price.

Another thing to consider is a GU10 to screw base adapter and use PAR20 bulbs. That seller mentioned above currently has several lots of very nice PAR20 bulbs (8W, a good replacement for 50 watt halogens)

I have found that lumen for lumen LED bulbs are far more effective than incandescent bulbs. Figure that an incandescent puts out 10 lumens per watt (no matter what the package says). I originally replaced some 50W/500 lumen halogens with 8W/375 lumen LED PAR20’s and the LEDs looked like they put out more light.

Get used to 3000K… it is the same color temp as halogens. 2700K is normal incandescents.

Fully closed fixtures generally refers to sealed fixtures with a front cover glass. If yours are open at the front, they should be OK.

Be aware that you may need some different dimmers due to the low load that LED bulbs generate. I think that dimmer problems are the main reason that (good) LED bulbs get returned to stores. My house uses Lutron Diva dimmers. I have had no dimming problems with them.

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More like today… if you know where to shop… see my post above…

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In your links I don't see any 10 dollar LED bulbs that are designed for closed fixtures in 2700k tint.

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I don’t think his fixtures are closed fixtures… those have a front cover glass that seals off the can.

There are 2700K bulbs, but those are rather uncommon anymore. Almost everybody prefers 3000K/halogen.

Check the listings here:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/new_life_electronics/m.html?\_nkw=led&\_trkparms=65%253A10%257C66%253A2%257C39%253A1&rt=nc&\_sticky=1&\_trksid=p3911.c0.m14&\_sop=1&\_sc=1

And check their completed auctions… several went for less than $10 a bulb for 15W PAR30 bulbs (equal to a 75W halogen).

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Yes, you may have found a suitable alternative but those PAR30 bulbs are not BR30 like he needs. Neither are they designed for closed fixtures; whether or not his are closed fixtures none of your suggestions do what he says they need to do. They are just a compromise.

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Yup, life’s always a compromise.

And PAR30 and BR30 are pretty much the same thing…

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I’m somewhat flexible on what I stated that I want. I’m just researching this stuff for the first time.

I stated BR30 because I read somewhere that they produce more diffuse light than PAR30.

I think I want 2700K because in my bathroom I had cooler (3000? 3200? I don’t remember) CFLs and I didn’t like those at all. After I switched them to 2700K CFLs, I was happy.

I didn’t actually know what a closed fixture was; I had just assumed that if there was no opening in the “can”, that was a closed fixture. I didn’t think about the possibility of a lens on the bottom to truly close it off.

I have five halogen GU10s in the ceiling right now, plus one 3000K LED one, and the colours are obviously different when you look up at the lights themselves. Maybe a big apparent colour difference is only a small colour-temperature difference though. e.g. maybe our halogens are 2950K. I have no idea.

BTW, has anybody tried Cree CR6 lights? With trim included, they’re not too expensive.

Here’s a video on how to install them. Piece of cake.

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If you have halogens now, then 3000K-3200K LEDs will be a very good match.

I purposely avoided using any special LED fixtures and used only direct screw-in replacement fixtures. I know people that spent lots and lots on fancy LED fixtures only to find out that the company went belly up or there were no replacement parts when things went wrong. If I have a problem with a standard format bulb, I unscrew it and replace it with their competitor’s product.

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That is exactly why I wanted to use 5” or 6” cans and off-the-shelf bulbs, but when I watched that video, I saw that I could still replace the Cree lights/trims with standard 6” trims and off-the-shelf bulbs later. For me, the parts that must be standard are the cans, since I’ll be paying a contractor to replace/install them (yes I could do it myself but I’ve spent too much time working in the attic already).

If the trims and bulbs are replaceable by standing on a chair for a minute, that’s fine with me. Yes I’d be throwing away $500 if I decided to replace these Cree lights, but hey that’s only about the cost of one Surefire light. :slight_smile: (boggles the mind, doesn’t it? Light your entire living room, with LED technology no less, or buy one piddly flashlight)

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Check out the listings in that Ebay link. There are several for a 5”/6” can disk lamp very much like the Cree. 750 lumens. Surprisingly, not many takers for the $9.99 auctions or the $25 Buy-it-Nows. Looks like a bargain…

Oops… just noticed, free shipping on the $25 buy-it-nows, $15+ on the $10 auctions. Whenever I bought stuff from them that closed on the same day, they did combine shipping.

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Okay I’m 98% decided on the Cree CR6 lights. We went to look at them today at Home Depot and were impressed with the colour and the evenness of the light. We had the guy screw one into a track that already had a few incan and other LED bulbs in it, so we could compare side-by-side. We didn’t like the other LED bulbs because of the cool colour and the fact that you could see the individual LEDs and heatsink fins (I know not all LED bulbs are like that though). The colour of the CR6’s pretty much exactly matched the incan flood bulbs, which we know we like.

They’re $50. These are the 575 lm versions. Our HD store doesn’t yet carry the 800 lm ones, but that’s okay—I think 575 lm will be enough. They include integrated trim rings, so we sort of save about $10-13 per fixture that way, meaning the remaining $37-40 is the cost of the bulb, which is pretty much the same as LED bulbs of similar output at Home Depot.

Texaspyro, I did have a look at those ebay lights, but I didn’t like the slightly dome-shaped ones. Thanks for your help anyway.

BTW, HD also carried the Cree CR4’s, which are the same as the CR6’s but smaller, and with the same 575 lm output. The only reason we didn’t go with those was that those appear brighter when you look directly at the light, since it’s producing the same output but from a smaller surface area. We don’t like the feeling of having really bright spot lights above our heads, so we went for the bigger CR6’s.

And on top of everything else, one last small factor was that by buying the CR6’s, the few bucks we give to Cree might help them with developing the next great LED so we can put them in flashlights. :slight_smile:

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If you can wait (and the price difference is not too big), I’d go with the 800 lm units. LED bulb end-of-life is defined as when it reaches 70% of the original brightness. The 575 lumen fixture would be 400 lumens… say a 40 watt incandescent. The 800 lumen units would be at 560 lumens… the same as the original brightness of the 575 lumen fixtures. I used a lot of 18 watt bulbs where 15 watt is just fine for this very reason.

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Didn’t think of that. I’ll check with the store and see if they know when they’ll be available. I have a very limited window when I can get them installed so if they’re not available, oh well, too bad. Or… I could get the fixtures installed but not buy the lights until later. As long as the missus doesn’t mind darkness for a little while. :slight_smile:

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You can always run some cheap incandescents in them until the LEDs come in.

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The EcoSmart downlights at Home Depot/Amazon (USA) are rebranded CREE CR6 downlights. They are cheaper than the CREE branded versions and sometimes on sale (or buy HD coupons on eBay). I replaced a long hallway and everything in my kitchens/closets with various sizes of those about 8 months ago and they are almost prefect lights. All match incandescent color (though I prefer 3000K), instant on, very bright, no buzzing, no dead bulbs, nice looking, etc. I didn’t test dimming, but I know they will. I only had a “problem” with one light, where I didn’t realize one old can was a low profile can. I had to direct wire (solder) the CREE light to the electrical wiring, because it wouldn’t fit there with the adapter screwed into the socket. I’d definitely go with the CREE downlights, if you are on the fence. I’m getting ready to buy 6 of their similar eyeball lights for another room. Feel free to ask any questions you have about them…

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Great to hear, Anagoge. I have had to postpone my lights project, which is good in a way because I should be able to wait until the 800 lm CR6 hits the market. I was able to get a price quote on them from local industrial suppliers but the price wasn’t very good, so if I wait for Home Depot to get them, they should be significantly cheaper.

I do have questions for you: for a standard 8’ ceiling, and a medium-large living room, do you think 8 of these (I assume you have the 575 lm version) would be enough? Now that the 800 lm version is out, do you wish yours were 800 lm? About positioning: I originally wanted to install 10 lights, but I changed my mind and removed 2 from my plan because I thought that the two closest to the TV might partially shine into our eyes, making it hard to watch TV. Do you think that would be a problem? i.e. how much light goes “sideways”?

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I have them spaced at about 10 feet in an 8 foot ceiling hallway that is a full 5 feet wide (oversized), and they are a little too bright on full blast, IMO. I’m considering a dimmer. If I stand about 4 feet away from a hallway light, I can’t see the LEDs. Closer than that, it can hurt your eyes a little to look directly up at the light. The CREE website has the engineering specs on the flood angles.

Personally, I don’t see that big a need for 800 lumens, unless you have a very tall vaulted ceiling in a large room, commercial use, etc. Then again, I prefer more smaller lights to a few monster lights, and you can always dim them. I’d buy one of each to test first. My kitchen has vaulted 15-8 foot ceilings and is probably a bit larger than average and I find the 7 down lights plus 3 “45 W” (actually 9 watt LED) pendants over the island light things fine even at night when the skylights aren’t helping out. I don’t think you’ll find the glare different from using frosted incandescents of the same lumens. The output is very soft/diffused/wide with no ringing, clear hotspot, etc. You might put your 2 TV lights on a different switch, if you are worried, and that is possible in your case.

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Ok great, thanks.