Emitter Test Results pt4: XML2, XP-E2, XP-G2, and Nichia219! (along with sinkpad tests)

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Match
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Emitter Test Results pt4: XML2, XP-E2, XP-G2, and Nichia219! (along with sinkpad tests)

Folks,

  Long time no see...  Since most of you are now aware of my testing procedure, I'll be brief here.  The following is a test of the Cree XML2 on a standard aluminum 20mm star, along with another xml2 mounted on a copper sinkpad. (member vestureofblood was kind enough to send me out these for testing). 

Graphs speak louder than words, so here they are.  The first one is the XML2 on a standard star, followed by a comparison graph between a standard aluminum star and a copper sinkpad.  The third represents the associated vf of each.

 There you have it.   Max lumens on regular aluminum star came out to 1259, while it was 1770 for the sinkpad ( at much higher current).  The sinkpads do well at dissipating the heat - During an extended run at 5 amps, lumens only dropped by 50 before stabilizing out.  Also, while the output is quite impressive for the copper mounted XML2 (and xml2's in general), please note that there's a good chance max lumens won't be realized on a single li-ion due to the high vf.

UPDATE 3/10/2013

The last round of tests are complete and the data has been collected.  Here, we'll see graphs for the XP-E2, XP-G2, and Nichia219. The two Cree's have been tested on a standard aluminum star and on a copper sinkpad, and the graphs will reflect that data.  

 

There you have it. I'll let the data speak for itself, but suffice to say that with the availability of these sinkpads, I've milled my last copper pcb.  I did get a chance to do a direct comparison between the same emitter (XPG2) directly mounted to a large milled copper pcb and then on a sinkpad.  The difference between the two was anywhere from 5-10 lumens in favor of the milled pcb.  Not enough difference to be noticeable in anything less than an integrating sphere, much less real world use (and definitely not worth the added effort).

  My final addition to this emitter testing Opus will be to make one large graph with all of the new emitters present for easy comparison.  After that, I'll be retiring my testing setup for it's a big pita and I'm finding I don't enjoy it as much as I used to.

Enjoy the data,

-Match

Edited by: Match on 04/05/2013 - 06:48
scaru
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Great work Match, so now it looks like the vf of the XM-L2 is very similar to that of the Nichia 219. Sad

DARCANGEL
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Thanks Match,I love these "where the rubber hits the road" tests.The sinkpad really makes a difference and is clearly the winner over the aluminum mcpcb.It seems XML-2 is best suited in a multiple cell configuration because of the higher vf.Very valuable info for modders,and out of curiosity what is the bin of XML-2 in this test?

texaspyro
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Yes, but isn’t Match is sinking copper to big chunk ‘o copper? Results would be less spectacular if the copper sinkpad was sinking to a chunk ‘o aluminium like in most flashlight bodies.

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Thanks for the valuable information Match.
I guess amc7135 drivers are out at high currents. The battery wouldn’t be able to stay above vf of the led and the .12v overhead for the amc7135’s, at least not for very long anyways.

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Great work and Thank You Match Smile

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Thanks match, been waiting for a test on these.
Would the higher vf on these be accounting for the 2.25a draw using a 3.5a driver? Or is there something else coming in to play here?

Thanks again, your tests are invaluable to us here

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Thanks for the testing match. Interesting results.

My current and or voltage measurements are only relevent to anything that I measure. Budget light hobby proudly sponsored by my Mastercard and unkowingly paid for by a hard working wife. Free plug for my daughter. http://missymupsnails.com.au

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Pulsar wrote:
Thanks match, been waiting for a test on these.
Would the higher vf on these be accounting for the 2.25a draw using a 3.5a driver? Or is there something else coming in to play here?

Thanks again, your tests are invaluable to us here


Are you using a single cell driver?
And if so, what battery are using?
Update: Pulsar I found your thread with the mag, I’ll take the discussion there.
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Great information as usual, thanks!

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Sweet mother of pearl. As always—a big “thank you” for the data, match! I’m looking forward to how the XP-E2 fares. Will it have a higher Vf than its predecessor, like the XM-L sequel? Or will it be notably lower like XP-G2 vs. G1?

scaru wrote:

Great work Match, so now it looks like the vf of the XM-L2 is very similar to that of the Nichia 219. Sad


I know. It looks like high currents will call for 4xNiMH in a Mag. All the better for heatsinking, at least.
On the upside, the XM-L2 hovers around 62 lumens/watt at nearly thirty watts, >1.5A/mm^2, and delivers >400 lumens/mm^2. That’s crazy!
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Excellent work Match! This puts my ‘XM-L2 on copper SinkPads BTU Shocker’ mod very high on my list Wink

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Pretty Awesome that you can see the increase in Vf (roughly 0.15V at 3.0A) with the emitter on the Copper vs the emitter on the Aluminum. This is almost certainly attributed to the lower operating temperature of the emitter on the copper. Some of the difference, however, is likely just emitter to emitter variation. I’d love to see what the difference in the Vf to Current curve would look like for the same emitter soldered to an Al vs. Cu star.

You should, in fact, be able to work backward and figure out what the actual die temperature difference is between Al and Cu. It’s easy to calculate – 1.6mV difference per degree C.

PPtk

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PilotPTK wrote:
Pretty Awesome that you can see the increase in Vf (roughly 0.15V at 3.0A) with the emitter on the Copper vs the emitter on the Aluminum. This is almost certainly attributed to the lower operating temperature of the emitter on the copper. Some of the difference, however, is likely just emitter to emitter variation. I’d love to see what the difference in the Vf to Current curve would look like for the same emitter soldered to an Al vs. Cu star.

PPtk


+1
I agree; Sinkpad’s design is definitely doing it’s job! I’m impressed.
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Thanks for sharing..

This is how I would rate the upgrade by looking at your graph.
Up to 1,5amp, no difference
1,5-2,5 minimal difference
2,5-3,0 some difference, about 10% at 3A – or 100 lumen gained compared to aluminium.
3,0-4,0 defiantly some gains. Especially when getting close to 4A. About 200 lumen gained compared to aluminium star @4A. Or 15% increase.
4-6, huge gains

1500+ lumens @ 5A. NICE!

But, gains are mostly when having high vf.
Can someone explain to me how real life gains would be when using a 4-5 amp driver and only 1 li-ion like a Panasonic NCR18650B Protected in combination with a linear driver… Would there actually be any gains at all?

Using one protected 18650 in combination with a boost driver, would there be any issues?

If using only one battery, I am assuming larger , low resistance, no protection would be helpful. But pushing 5A for some time would not be realistic even with one “high ouput” 26650, or??

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relic38 wrote:
Excellent work Match! This puts my ‘XM-L2 on copper SinkPads BTU Shocker’ mod very high on my list Wink

Exactly my plans. Got all my parts ordered. Just have to wait for these dang XM-l2’s to eventually come in.
And thanks match for the awesome tests!
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RaceR86 wrote:

But, gains are mostly when having high vf.
Can someone explain to me how real life gains would be when using a 4-5 amp driver and only 1 li-ion like a Panasonic NCR18650B Protected in combination with a linear driver… Would there actually be any gains at all?

Even the best 18650’s aren’t going to push the XM-L2 harder than about 3.6 to 3.8 Amps on a linear or switching buck driver.

I am currently extremely busy with work. Please do not expect a response from me quickly. I will be dropping in as time permits, but the amount of time I can dedicate to responding to topics and PMs is very limited.

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PilotPTK wrote:
RaceR86 wrote:

But, gains are mostly when having high vf.
Can someone explain to me how real life gains would be when using a 4-5 amp driver and only 1 li-ion like a Panasonic NCR18650B Protected in combination with a linear driver… Would there actually be any gains at all?

Even the best 18650’s aren’t going to push the XM-L2 harder than about 3.6 to 3.8 Amps on a linear or switching buck driver.

And even if it does make that suggested current it would not stay there very long maybe a couple of minutes at best. A IMR cell would probably stand the best chance at it. Possibly 8 to 10 min judging by HKJ’s IMR graph.
PilotPTK
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Yep, the XM-L2 really wants two LiIon cells and a buck driver. That would be ideal.

PPtk

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moderator007 wrote:
PilotPTK wrote:
Even the best 18650’s aren’t going to push the XM-L2 harder than about 3.6 to 3.8 Amps on a linear or switching buck driver.
And even it does make that suggested current it would not stay there very long maybe a couple of minutes at best. A IMR cell would probably stand the best chance at it. Possibly 8 to 10 min judging by HKJ’s IMR graph.

I had a feeling that would be the case..

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Thank you for the analysis Match, What bin were the XM-L2? Tint? Where did you purchase them?

Thanks!

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thanks for the test,sinkpads do great job.

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Thanks Match. Now I just need to know where can I get those XM-L2 on sinkpad Sad

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excellent work Match, thanks!
Particularly this Vf graph is neccesary for a good mod! I was expecting the lumen results but i was a bit surprised from the Vf graph. Do you have any xm-l for comparison? THanks!

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What bin is that XM-L2?

Newb

georgek
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very nice work.. thank you very much..!!!

I also need to know where to get xm-l2…

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texaspyro wrote:
Yes, but isn't Match is sinking copper to big chunk 'o copper? Results would be less spectacular if the copper sinkpad was sinking to a chunk 'o aluminium like in most flashlight bodies.

Yes he is. But the difference is not that big, see here:

Taken from here: http://www.taschenlampen-forum.de/modding/13515-bastis-bastelbude-13.htm...

Testing of a copper star on Alu, Cu and Ms (brass) heatsinks.

 

Thank you for the test Match. Nichia 219 in sight? Biggrin

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Great info. Thank you Match!

So it appears that even running multiple healthy parallel cells wouldn’t run very long at 5A. Guess one needs to consider getting the equipment needed to measure capacity and rate of discharge if they want to push an XML2 hard.

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texaspyro wrote:
Yes, but isn’t Match is sinking copper to big chunk ‘o copper? Results would be less spectacular if the copper sinkpad was sinking to a chunk ‘o aluminium like in most flashlight bodies.
I would love to see the difference with sinkpad to aluminum. This difference was talked about elsewhere. It would really be good to KNOW what that difference would be. Remember the heat capacity of aluminum is about twice that of copper, even though the thermal conductivity is about half. Sinkpad to Aluminum is the practical construction technique, lets see how effective it would be.

Thanks for doing the measurements.

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WOW!

Thanks for doing those tests.

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Thanks Match!! This confirms what I've been seeing in the few XM-L2/SinkPAD builds I did and posted about. I ordered a Small Sun ZY-T08 exactly because of the 2 parallel battery configuration - perfect for a hot XM-L2/SinkPAD/Nanjg 3.85A or 4.2A setup.

 Also, these results don't mean you won't see much of an advantage from single cell applications - even at lower measured amps, results are impressive over XML U3's on aluminum. I've also seen outstanding results with an XML U3 on a SinkPAD and having the same high Vf issue with that, so it's not so much an advantage of the XM-L2, it's the SinkPAD's advantage. For single cell applications, switching to lower resistance batteries directly results in higher amps, higher measured lumens/throw - I've done this on a few lights by testing with an AW IMR 2000 mah.

 So, I'm seeing greater gains with a SinkPAD upgrade than upgrading to an XM-L2 emitter only, so, Match's results seem to confirm this. I'm not saying XM-L2's have no merit - they do with efficiency, and with equal bin, equal tint, they should do better than an XML, but unfortunately the best/brightest available XML emitter is a U3 1A/1B/1C, while the best/brightest XM-L2 is U2 1A/1C now, and I've only used XM-L2 U2 1C's and XM-L2 T6 3C's up til now.

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That explains why I only get 3.3a where an xm-l takes 3.7a.

I have a light in mind for an xm-l2 swap now. Just need to get a sink pad to suit.

Thankyou match. :bigsmile:

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dchomak wrote:
Remember the heat capacity of aluminum is about twice that of copper, even though the thermal conductivity is about half.

If you compare the same mass (1kg for example) but now do the math for the volumetric heat capacity (hint: the one of copper is higher).

But just take a look at post #26. Even brass is good enough.

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I hope someone puts out a constant voltage/current driver soon so we can push these babies to 5amps on 2x li ions

Would you mind keeping the wrong flashlight?
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If I had a 2 li-ion light, I’d be doing an MT-G2, not an XM-L2.

How about a boost drive for a L2 at 5 amps? Dirol

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NightCrawl wrote:

dchomak wrote:
Remember the heat capacity of aluminum is about twice that of copper, even though the thermal conductivity is about half.

If you compare the same mass (1kg for example) but now do the math for the volumetric heat capacity (hint: the one of copper is higher).

But just take a look at post #26. Even brass is good enough.

That’s right, I am not saying Aluminum is better, I am saying that it is more practical, therefore for most applications it is what will be used. So it would be good to know how it performs when mated with the copper sinkpad. I suspect it wouldn’t do that much worse than copper all the way. If it is only a few percent difference, then that would be great. The thermal path from the junction of the LED to the back side of the copper sinkpad is the most critical part. The further away you get from the LED, the less important thermal conductivity becomes because the cross sectional area is greatly increased. It would be really good to know how Aluminum performs past the copper sinkpad.

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MT-G2's are great for flood, haven't seen/heard of a good throw setup with one yet. What relic38 and rdrfronty are thinking about with the BTU is potentially one of the best applications of the XM-L2/SinkPAD's

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the first pics has also xpg2 ,are you going to test them as well?

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thanks for the data Match, it’s fantastic to see such controlled experiments especially as the data can then be compared back to previous emitters.

So the XM-L did ~875lm @3A, the XM-L2 (U2 I presume) does ~1000lm at 3A and the XM-L2 on a sinkpad does ~1100lm. 225lm extra for an emitter swap is pretty amazing! At 1.5A the figures are ~550, 630 and 650lm, which probably explains why I didn’t see much difference by eye when I swapped my XM-L T6 for XM-L2 T6 on Sinkpads.

It’s interesting that, despite the higher Vf, the XM-L2 on Sinkpad is more efficient at ~101lm/W @3A vs. 96lm/W on a plain aluminium star. Pretty damn amazing how far things have come in the last couple of years.

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I just modded a KE-5 that did 4.8A (stock T6 on 16 mm alum star) - 920 lumens stock, to Nanjg @3.85A U3 1B/20mm SinkPAD and got 1,100 lumens. So, lower amps, cooler running, better output. At stock, that light got noticeably warm at 30 secs - after the mod I ran it to 6.5 mins where hottest spot got to 118F, pretty hot, but that's tailstanding on it's own @room temperature.

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DARCANGEL wrote:
Very valuable info for modders,and out of curiosity what is the bin of XML-2 in this test?

The XML2 is a U2 bin, and IIRC the XPE2 I sent was Q5 or what ever the top available bin for them is.

texaspyro wrote:
Yes, but isn't Match is sinking copper to big chunk 'o copper? Results would be less spectacular if the copper sinkpad was sinking to a chunk 'o aluminium like in most flashlight bodies.

Yes, you are correct texaspyro.   There is some loss because of the smaller amount of metal in a flashlight. 

I think however you will be pleased to know I have conducted some testing on this.    In the body of a small to medium size light ( like a 30mm head diameter) I put one of these XML2 on a sinkpad and wired it directly to my bench power supply.    Even in the small light body XML2 sees gains at the 1 minute mark as high as 5800-6000ma.    The output does have a gradual but steady decline at this current.    Its more stable at slightly lower current like 5000.  

I will be posting a thread reflecting some of the data in this experiment over the weekend.

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great measurements!

If you put this combo in a well heatsinked flashlight that can handle the 5A (say, a few 18650's parallel, or one fatty INR), I wouldn't bother using a driver at all, just direct drive it on the batteries: 1600 lumens at 4.2V, still 1250 at 3.8V Cool

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Why is the forward voltage higher with XM-L2 on copper vs aluminum at the same amperage?

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Bort: I think it’s because the emitter runs cooler on copper.

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Also keep in mind that given two emitters of the same basic type, bin, and tint can still perform differently.  Good 'ol cree tolerances. 

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fonzeka wrote:
Bort: I think it’s because the emitter runs cooler on copper.

correct

Would you mind keeping the wrong flashlight?
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 Tried Panasonic PD's in a couple of XM-L2 U2/SinkPAD lights and definitely as good or better than a AW IMR 2000. Also tested 2 Samsung INR 1500's from FT (cheap, but out of stock now), and also as good or better than the PD's. I was able to get 3.85A on my XinTD, and in the 7G9, I put 2 INR's and 1 PD (have only 2 each) and actually got 4.2A measured to match the 12 7135's, throw of 125 kcd measured! So the low resistance batteries do help big time. Working on a Small Sun ZY-T08 (2 parallel) now with XM-L2 U2 1C/SinkPAD Nanjg 4.2A - hoping it will be one hot setup thrower with the PD's or Samsung INR's.

 

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Gentlemen,

  The latest and final round of emitter tests are done and complete.  The first post has been updated to include the Nichia219, along with the xpg2 and xpe2 comparisons of aluminum pcb vs the copper sinkpad.  

  Also, you'll notice that I deleted the vF graph for the XML2. For complete transparency reasons, here's why: During an equipment audit, I noticed that my trusty Fluke wasn't that trusty anymore despite being within it's cal date.  I have since swapped it out with another proven unit and ran a retest.  New vF graph to be up shortly.

-Match

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nice,thanks again! the xpg2 test is done with R5?
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Thanks for the graphs! Sad to hear that you will retire.. and that there is no Nichia on copper test. Wink

Anyways, thank you. Smile

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Great work Match! Look at that XP-G2 go! Those are XM-L T6 numbers on a much smaller die. Explains the TN31mb throw results a bit.

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