A Perfect Dedome?

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Rufusbduck
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JohnnyMac wrote:

Bort wrote:
NightCrawl wrote:

djozz wrote:

Thanks for the testing, thusfar I just went ahead with a forceps with various results, I have some leds underway that are going to be dedomed, I’ll give a few of these methods a try Smile, including the gasoline one (here in Europe I will use petrol instead, hope that works too Wink).

No, petrol only works in great britain. Wink

your led will only work in the uk, if you try to travel with it, it won’t be compatible with batteries and dark environments designed for the rest of the world Big Smile
Nah…you just have to hold it in your left hand for it to work. Wink

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comfychair wrote:

Can you spray it into a cup and then apply with small brush, or a dropper? How easy does it flow out before it's cured?

Honestly, I've never tried.  The spray emitted from the can is pretty thin, as is a single coating from same.  When used as an electrical insulator, I make two or three passes.  

A year's worth of use has left me with just under half a can left, FWIW.

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dct73 wrote:
Haven’t we been saying to use gasoline for months now? Where have you guys been?

Even with the Internet it takes time for word to get around. I’m here daily and only recently heard about it. I don’t read every single thread every day.

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dct73 wrote:
Haven't we been saying to use gasoline for months now? Where have you guys been?

I'm sure you're right, but it's been difficult to find for sure what the best method really is in all these postings and threads with the mix of successes and failures. Think we need a shared googles doc just for dedoming, or some way of summarizing the experiences. The big thread on dedoming is just way too big to get a bottom line answer from. I'm still not sure exactly what to do with the gasoline method. If you could reference threads/posts with specifics, that would be a great help. My questions with gas:

  • does the octane, content, source of the gas make a difference?
  • 12 hrs min time, but ok if longer?
  • Is all the silicon remnants supposed to be completely gone off the LED? I found it wasn't and needed to be pushed off - maybe I did something wrong?
  • can you do just minimum amount to cover the LED dome for the soaking, or should you use a full jar/can of gas? Does it matter?
  • the LED Seal stuff sounds good. Is everyone using it? Any side effect like measured output drops?
  • should the wires be clear of the gooey stuff as well or only the surface matters?
  • should the LED be rinsed/cleaned after the gas soaking? How? I used isopropyl alcohol - seemed ok, anything better?

 When I used acetone, I thought the rule was 30 minutes, then that's it, good to do. But it didn't work out that simply. There are several ways of doing the heat method, but again, seems like details are lacking, or skills/knowledge of what to look for are not there. I think what happens is if you have success with a method, you stay with it, so if someone has 100% success rate on a heat method, why change? But for someone trying this for the first time, it seems like the gas method is the best way to go perhaps.

 Also with the chemical approach, I think everyone is a little apprehensive about potential damage and long term effects, follow-up care/treatment, etc.

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I think there’s some confusion about what octane rating means.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating

iow, 92 octane from one supplier might be a different cocktail of hydrocarbons than from another…but they should ignite at very nearly the same conditions

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For the record, I did mine in 87 octane, and it was fine. I’m confident the octane is not what’s eating the dome.

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I just tried using silicone conformal coating on the de-domed emitter and the results are troubling.
Dedomed XM-L @ 700mA (more details in my earlier post)
Before coating: 264 lm
After coating: 252 lm
It’s not huge, about 5% loss. Worth noting anyway. Since the LedSeal is silicone based, I’m thinking it would have a similar effect. Maybe spraying a very light coat is the best way to do it.
Is the coating even necessary? What happens if you leave it?

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I'd give up ~5% to know those teeeeny little gold wires were protected.

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I dunked it in gasoline again for a few minutes and it recovered some of the loss; back to 257 lm.
I agree that having some protection is good. I was more concerned about the phosphor layer browning, but I read somewhere that it’s coated already.
The bond wires are made of gold, so they will not degrade in open air. Physical contact with them is not good, and LedSeal isn’t going to help with that.

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I’ve handled de-domed xml2 pretty roughly. No problems.

The bond wires are delicate, but after the dome is gone, they tend to get squished down instead of yanked off (from handling….a tool slip is a different story)

The phosphor on the xml2s is pretty tough.

I’ve done a similar experiment to relic’s but with clear acrylic spray instead of led seal, and I was measuring throw not output.

I got about the same decrease (~6%) w/ one light coat.

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dthrckt wrote:
I think there's some confusion about what octane rating means. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating iow, 92 octane from one supplier might be a different cocktail of hydrocarbons than from another...but they should ignite at very nearly the same conditions

 

Even so, the hydrocarbons used are likely to be very similar.  By trying different octanes, it gives a clue as to which chemical is doing the job.  That's why I mentioned Xylene earlier.  That's a component of gasoline with a higher octane rating.  If folks find that higher octane gas is more effective at dedoming, then the next step is trying Xylene or other high octane components of gasoline.  Toluene is also worth checking out.  

 

Folks should be careful around gasoline and its components, not just because of the fire risk, but also because components of gasoline are made up of aromatic hydrocarbons that have strong links to cancer.  I'd avoid direct contact with skin and would have good ventilation.

The low mode should be lower.

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Interesting, good input. I was so careful in handling the dedomed LED. I know I accidentally hit the domes all the time with a finger, knuckle, etc., and usually go over it with alcohol before buttoning it up. It just looked so vunerable, naked and all - now don't get too excited Wink.

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FWIW.

 

I dedomed an XML at this time last year and put it in a light that gives it around 5A.

I've not used anything to coat it and there is hardly any "goo" left anywhere.

It probably has around 100 running hours on high since then and it put exactly the same amount of light out today as it did the day I dedomed it.

 

To put that into perspective I think of it this way. By the time it burns out I'll have at least xml2 or 3 or even 4 to chose from to replace it.

So I think that as long as you do not mechanically damage the wires or phosfor you and your led will be fine.

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Is there an alternate to petrol (gasolene), I cant keep it here as the wife has a problem with it similar to the problem I have with alcoholic beverages.Wink

Chicago X wrote:
MRsDNF wrote:
I have to ask. Whats led seal?
http://www.ledsupply.com/9013-07.phphttp://www.reef2reef.com/forums/reef-led-lights/46649-light-emitting-dio...This stuff is great.  It not only protects the phosphor coating after dedoming, but also prevents reflector shorts in situations where an insulating disk cannot be used.Me likey.

Thanks ChicagoX.

JohnnyMac wrote:
Bort wrote:
NightCrawl wrote:
djozz wrote:
Thanks for the testing, thusfar I just went ahead with a forceps with various results, I have some leds underway that are going to be dedomed, I'll give a few of these methods a try Smile, including the gasoline one (here in Europe I will use petrol instead, hope that works too Wink).
No, petrol only works in great britain. Wink your led will only work in the uk, if you try to travel with it, it won't be compatible with batteries and dark environments designed for the rest of the world :DNah...you just have to hold it in your left hand for it to work. Wink

Going along the lines that somethings that works in one place and not another, we have flyspray here that says on the instructions on the can that it will kill spiders in the state where I live but apparently will not kill spiders in the state next to us. I have noticed lately that there is a lot less spiders here. I'd say that they are all moving to the next state (NSW).

 

djozz quotes, "it came with chinese lettering that is chinese to me".

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MRsDNF wrote:

Is there an alternate to petrol (gasolene), I cant keep it here as the wife has a problem with it similar to the problem I have with alcoholic beverages.Wink


What about its components like toluene and xylene?  You should be able to find those at your hardware store.  Whatever you don't use for LEDs you can put into the gasoline tank of your vehicle.

The low mode should be lower.

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Tom E wrote:

dct73 wrote:
Haven't we been saying to use gasoline for months now? Where have you guys been?

I'm sure you're right, but it's been difficult to find for sure what the best method really is in all these postings and threads with the mix of successes and failures. Think we need a shared googles doc just for dedoming, or some way of summarizing the experiences. The big thread on dedoming is just way too big to get a bottom line answer from. I'm still not sure exactly what to do with the gasoline method. If you could reference threads/posts with specifics, that would be a great help. My questions with gas:

  • does the octane, content, source of the gas make a difference?
  • 12 hrs min time, but ok if longer?
  • Is all the silicon remnants supposed to be completely gone off the LED? I found it wasn't and needed to be pushed off - maybe I did something wrong?
  • can you do just minimum amount to cover the LED dome for the soaking, or should you use a full jar/can of gas? Does it matter?
  • the LED Seal stuff sounds good. Is everyone using it? Any side effect like measured output drops?
  • should the wires be clear of the gooey stuff as well or only the surface matters?
  • should the LED be rinsed/cleaned after the gas soaking? How? I used isopropyl alcohol - seemed ok, anything better?

 When I used acetone, I thought the rule was 30 minutes, then that's it, good to do. But it didn't work out that simply. There are several ways of doing the heat method, but again, seems like details are lacking, or skills/knowledge of what to look for are not there. I think what happens is if you have success with a method, you stay with it, so if someone has 100% success rate on a heat method, why change? But for someone trying this for the first time, it seems like the gas method is the best way to go perhaps.

 Also with the chemical approach, I think everyone is a little apprehensive about potential damage and long term effects, follow-up care/treatment, etc.

-I'm pretty sure that its irrelevant. I just included the octane rating as a fun fact. Big Smile

-I left an XPG in gasoline for three days, didnt harm it.

-It should be off the phosphor because it will block/diffuse the light. If its not completely gone, give it more time.

-I used a 0.2cl glass for schnaps, about half full. So I say the amount does not matter. But you have to cover it (foil for example) because otherwise it will be gone after half a day.

-never used LED Seal and neither did anyone else in Germany. SST90 has air between dome and phosphor.. I think putting anything onto the phosphor would have negative effects on the throw because you'd increase surface area again.

-surface matters.

-I didnt clean it because gas is fugitive.

 

The tips about being careful with gas.. seriously? Of course, dont drink it, but you will be in closer contact to gas when you use a chainsaw, lawn mower or just fill your car.

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Thanks leaftye. If I put the led's in the fuel tank would they not block the fuel filter up. Do leds act as some sort of octane booster? I'm not sure that would work for me as I have had to buy a diesel for the wife which I dont think matters about octane rating. Does it matter whether there the very cheap led's or do they have to be Cree?

 

djozz quotes, "it came with chinese lettering that is chinese to me".

                      "My man mousehole needs one too"

old4570 said "I'm not an expert , so don't suffer from any such technical restrictions".

Old-Lumens. Highly admired and cherished member of Budget Light Forum. 11.5.2011 - 20.12.16. RIP.

 

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leaftye wrote:

dthrckt wrote:
I think there’s some confusion about what octane rating means. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating iow, 92 octane from one supplier might be a different cocktail of hydrocarbons than from another…but they should ignite at very nearly the same conditions

 

Even so, the hydrocarbons used are likely to be very similar.  By trying different octanes, it gives a clue as to which chemical is doing the job.  That’s why I mentioned Xylene earlier.  That’s a component of gasoline with a higher octane rating.  If folks find that higher octane gas is more effective at dedoming, then the next step is trying Xylene or other high octane components of gasoline.  Toluene is also worth checking out.  

 

Folks should be careful around gasoline and its components, not just because of the fire risk, but also because components of gasoline are made up of aromatic hydrocarbons that have strong links to cancer.  I’d avoid direct contact with skin and would have good ventilation.

I have some xylene, or actually, xylol,though I’m not exactly sure where, but next time I come across it I will try it.

I have it because it is a thinner/cleanup for hammered paints. I can tell you that it is NOTHING like paint thinner, lacquer thinner or acetone as far as how hazardous it is.

Fumes will F$#@#@ you up – BAD.

and, don’t get it on your skin either. I regularly soak a paper towel with any of the other solvents and rub my hands clean of whatever I’ve been applying.

Try that (or even lesser an amount) with xylene and your skin will begin to tingle, then it goes deeper, and it feels like the limb fell asleep – then it starts to ACHE like someone stomped on it. Then you feel real sick.

ask me how i know.

I bought a mask just to work with the stuff, because I like hammered paints – but unless you HAVE to use it, stay the hell away from it.

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Hmm… I have a can of Italian made gel paint remover with a really cute name “DYNAMITT 46” (methylene chloride based) and that thing eats trough everything (eats latex gloves for breakfast) perhaps it would work well for dedoming too…

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it will probably lift the paint off the dielectric layer and might even lift the whole layer from the board

This kind of stuff is why I’ve kept the emitters I’ve poofed Wink

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the wrote:

Heating works fine for me. You need to have the correct temperature and the results may vary..


Anyone notice the fourth bond wire? The one that looks like it’s going between the negative and positive substrates? Look near the top edge of the silver circle. I have no idea what it does, but it connects to something really small on the positive plate. I broke it and the LED is still working. Just curious.

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Pretty sure its the ESD protection.

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Well, I got it in the HD2010, finally. Had some issues with shorting under the LED. Toughest reflow I’ve done yet.
Anyway, Here are the numbers:
HD2010, Dedomed XM-L T6 1A, East-092 (DD) at 4.4A, Sanyo18650ZT at 4.2V
Output: 1022 lm at start, 994 lm at 30s
Throw: 75kcd
Not too bad for an XM-L T6. Tint is a greenish warmish cream, with a nasty uneven hotspot. Still has decent spill.
Not sure why the hotspot is uneven yet. This particular HD2010 never was particularly smooth.
Still have a darn short on the reflector, modes do not work so it must be on the negative side. Silly HD2010 design |(

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NightCrawl wrote:

Pretty sure its the ESD protection.


Ahh, that makes sense. Guess I should be careful with it then Wink

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Is gasoline really that easy? Just drop your led in a glass of gasoline, cover, come back a day or so later… perfect de-dome?


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Yep, it’s that easy. No magic involved, just drop it in and wait. I never left one in there for less than over night so I can’t say what the minimum time is, but I forgot one for about a day and a half and it was fine. Sometimes you have a little silicone left around the wires etc.. I just left the extraneous bits that weren’t on the phosphorus. One time I carefully pushed some small bits off with my pocket knife but I don’t think you need to. Most people have gasoline in the garage and with gas at four bucks a gallon you could do thousands of de-domes for a fiver.

Hey guys on my earlier comment about where have you been I was trying to kid around a bit. I should have put some kind of smiley in there and didn’t, so here it is!. Smile

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NightCrawl wrote:

The tips about being careful with gas.. seriously? Of course, dont drink it, but you will be in closer contact to gas when you use a chainsaw, lawn mower or just fill your car.

 Oh sorry, didnt' mean health risk, I meant long term issues with the emitter. I'm thinking this: take it out of the gas, solder the leads - poof! Or leaving the gas on to evaporate, maybe it would leave a film of chemicals behind, causing bad effects weeks/months later? -- that kind of effect. By "care/treatment", meaning clean-up, spray treatments (LED seal or whatever). But what you are saying nothing is needed, and after one year, no long term effects. This is getting better and better! Looking back now, why did I go so off track? This seems to be the best and easiest way by far, at least for me and many others I assume. Now it seems like the only issue is deciding whether to do it or not - yes there's some risk of damaging a $10 LED  (plus s/h) you waited 4 weeks for (the risks though seem less than I thought), but you also have to decide whether the smaller tighter beam, less light in the flood, warming the tint is worth it for the double effect on candelas. Making that decision is easy easy once you understand all the pros and  cons.

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relic38 wrote:
Anyone notice the fourth bond wire? The one that looks like it's going between the negative and positive substrates? Look near the top edge of the silver circle. I have no idea what it does, but it connects to something really small on the positive plate. I broke it and the LED is still working. Just curious.

That's the 'planned obsolescence' fuse. Tongue Out

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comfychair wrote:

relic38 wrote:
Anyone notice the fourth bond wire? The one that looks like it’s going between the negative and positive substrates? Look near the top edge of the silver circle. I have no idea what it does, but it connects to something really small on the positive plate. I broke it and the LED is still working. Just curious.

That’s the ‘planned obsolescence’ fuse. Tongue Out


Well then, mine will not be going ‘obsolete’ by itself then Big Smile

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Putting a XP-G in gas oil for 24 hours works fine.

The dome did not fall off by itself though. What happened was that I thought it had not worked so when I took it out of the gas oil i poked the dome with my finger to feel if it had gone soft at all. It had not really but it just slid off!

I then sprayed the die with electro cleaner for a few seconds and that removed any gooey stuff that was left.

Initially worried that I might have broken the bonding wires with my thick fingers I hurried to test it out with a battery and it works.

 

Thank you very much to the OP and all others who have contributed to this thread and the knowledge we now have. TY! Smile

~ Ledsmoke ~

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