modding hs-802

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telephoneman
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modding hs-802

First post here, so please forgive any mistakes.

I purchased a Uniquefire hs-802 light with red LED for coyote hunting. After receiving the light, I proceeded to slap a Panasonic 18650 in it to try. I looked at the beam, and noticed it flashed after 30 seconds or so but continued to burn. Using my Fluke DMM, I measured amperage at the tailcap and found the light would draw .6-.7A and slowly increase for the first 30 seconds or so. After the draw hit about .9A, it would immediately jump to 2.6A. The current jump coincides with the flash I see.

I took the light apart, and noticed the solder from the circuit board to the pill seemed substandard, so I warmed up the soldering station and made better joints. After that, the draw seems pretty consistent at around .7A. With that fix, the first problem seems to be solved.

Now my questions are, what can this XR-E red emitter be driven to safely? Is there an aspheric available to fit the light, and will it throw further/be better for a hunting light? If going asperic, would you dedome the LED?

Thanks

djozz
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hi telephoneman, welcome to BLF. I am curious too at the red XR-E. I have two of them spare that I am happy to blow up for you to see what the maximum current is   >) . But they appear to be a bit different from each other, which of the two looks like yours?

telephoneman
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It appears to be the one on the right. I wasn’t aware there were differences in the red XR-E’s.

Thanks for you offer to help. I have 1050 and 1400ma drivers on their way, so I don’t plan to go higher than that.

djozz
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telephoneman wrote:
It appears to be the one on the right. I wasn't aware there were differences in the red XR-E's. Thanks for you offer to help. I have 1050 and 1400ma drivers on their way, so I don't plan to go higher than that.

I do Smile

MRsDNF
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Only you djozz. Smile
Hi and welcome telephoneman to this chaotic madhouse. djozz is one of the resident madmen. Good luck with your mod.

 

djozz quotes, "it came with chinese lettering that is chinese to me".

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Old-Lumens. Highly admired and cherished member of Budget Light Forum. 11.5.2011 - 20.12.16. RIP.

 

telephoneman
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Thanks. For some reason, that’s typically the kind of folks I find. Maybe great minds think alike?;)

djozz
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The one on the right appeared to be an orange XR-E instead of red (did not even remember I had one Undecided) so I decided to test the left one anyway, I figured that the colour would matter more than the chip lay-out. I would not think that Cree made one that performed completely different from it I guess...

It was a cosy test athmosphere Smile :

Here's a graph I made from the numbers, there's the voltage in it as well (should be close to Vf of the led), and the lumens, as calculated from my ceiling bounce lux-numbers. Do not pay too much attention to the actual lumen numbers, they do not tell a lot of the output 'power' with (close to) monochromatic light so far from what your eyes percieves brightest. Within this test they are a relative measure of output of course.

So 1.4 A is spot on for the maximum output

(and I had my bit of fun for tonight. That is not mad?.....or is it? I did not even destroy the led Smile )

B42
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Nice, great job djozz Smile

unknown00101
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I haven’t looked into color emitters, could you drop that red onto a noctigon/sinkpad and get increases at and possibly above 2.5A?

telephoneman
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Djozz,
Man that was more than I expected!! That confirms my guess that 1.4A was where I needed to be.

Now on to whether to dedome and find an aspheric!!!

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the red XR-E does not exist. what you have there is a red xr-c. Check cree’s data sheets. The emitter on the left is a genuine cree, the one on the right is a counterfeit. .
The red xpe2 is what you should be looking at. The red xr-c puts out a whopping from high bin to low bin 23.5/30.6/39.8 lm/350mA, the xpe2 p3 73.9 lm/350mA. They can be safely driven to 1.4A after that, all you get is more heat and not more light which your graph does support. and if careful attention is not paid to the assembly you will get 20% plus drop in candela after only seconds. The red led’s have a very low Vf requiring the driver to shed alot of extra voltage creating heat that kills the light output.

Kevin

unknown00101
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kevind43 wrote:
the red XR-E does not exist. what you have there is a red xr-c. Check cree’s data sheets. The emitter on the left is a genuine cree, the one on the right is a counterfeit. .
The red xpe2 is what you should be looking at. The red xr-c puts out a whopping from high bin to low bin 23.5/30.6/39.8 lm/350mA, the xpe2 p3 73.9 lm/350mA. They can be safely driven to 1.4A after that, all you get is more heat and not more light which your graph does support. and if careful attention is not paid to the assembly you will get 20% plus drop in candela after only seconds. The red led’s have a very low Vf requiring the driver to shed alot of extra voltage creating heat that kills the light output.

Kevin

would they behave in the same manner as normal xpe2 on aluminum vs copper?

http://budgetlightforum.com/node/19331

MRsDNF
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Wow. That was quick service. djozz is the (mad)man.

 

djozz quotes, "it came with chinese lettering that is chinese to me".

                      "My man mousehole needs one too"

old4570 said "I'm not an expert , so don't suffer from any such technical restrictions".

Old-Lumens. Highly admired and cherished member of Budget Light Forum. 11.5.2011 - 20.12.16. RIP.

 

kevind43
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unknown00101 wrote:
kevind43 wrote:
the red XR-E does not exist. what you have there is a red xr-c. Check cree’s data sheets. The emitter on the left is a genuine cree, the one on the right is a counterfeit. .
The red xpe2 is what you should be looking at. The red xr-c puts out a whopping from high bin to low bin 23.5/30.6/39.8 lm/350mA, the xpe2 p3 73.9 lm/350mA. They can be safely driven to 1.4A after that, all you get is more heat and not more light which your graph does support. and if careful attention is not paid to the assembly you will get 20% plus drop in candela after only seconds. The red led’s have a very low Vf requiring the driver to shed alot of extra voltage creating heat that kills the light output.

Kevin

would they behave in the same manner as normal xpe2 on aluminum vs copper?

http://budgetlightforum.com/node/19331

Yes. MATCH’S graphs and data are one of my go to sources for modding hunting lights with color emitters.

@ OP the hs-802 comes in a few different forms much like the C8 you never know what your going to get. some have a nice brass pill some have an aluminum pill. There are huge differences between the brass pills also. I have measured over .070 in difference in height between several different pills measured. The final assembly requires shimming and filing to get the focus correct in the hs-802.

As delivered the hs-802 red puts out a dismal 8000Cd. My last hs-802 is putting out about 18,000Cd RED. You should be able to get close to that with a red xpe2 on a copper sinkpad at 1.4A

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unknown00101 wrote:
I haven't looked into color emitters, could you drop that red onto a noctigon/sinkpad and get increases at and possibly above 2.5A?

I tested that for a white XR-E some time ago, and there is some gain using copper, but not really worth the trouble, because the solder pad of the XR-E is so large already that the solderpad-board junction is not the bottleneck for the heat in the XR-E:

http://budgetlightforum.com/node/23217#comment-431421

djozz
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kevind43 wrote:
the red XR-E does not exist. what you have there is a red xr-c. Check cree's data sheets. The emitter on the left is a genuine cree, the one on the right is a counterfeit. . The red xpe2 is what you should be looking at. The red xr-c puts out a whopping from high bin to low bin 23.5/30.6/39.8 lm/350mA, the xpe2 p3 73.9 lm/350mA. They can be safely driven to 1.4A after that, all you get is more heat and not more light which your graph does support. and if careful attention is not paid to the assembly you will get 20% plus drop in candela after only seconds. The red led's have a very low Vf requiring the driver to shed alot of extra voltage creating heat that kills the light output. Kevin

There's always new things to learn about leds, I did not know that in red, the xpe performs so much better than the xr(e or c), for white leds the gain is not that much.I'll have a look in my spare leds box if I have a red xpe somewhere, see how it tests in practice, but I fear I do not have one.

The red led that I tested was indeed bought as a XP-C, but because the die looks larger than the white XR-C die, in fact the same size as a white XR-E, I thought that they had send me the wrong led.

If I look at the fine details of the led that you mark as a counterfeit, I see no clues of that, I'd still guess it is from the same maker as the left led, so both are Cree or both are counterfeit from what I can make out.

telephoneman
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kevind43 wrote:
the red XR-E does not exist. what you have there is a red xr-c. Check cree’s data sheets. The emitter on the left is a genuine cree, the one on the right is a counterfeit. .
The red xpe2 is what you should be looking at. The red xr-c puts out a whopping from high bin to low bin 23.5/30.6/39.8 lm/350mA, the xpe2 p3 73.9 lm/350mA. They can be safely driven to 1.4A after that, all you get is more heat and not more light which your graph does support. and if careful attention is not paid to the assembly you will get 20% plus drop in candela after only seconds. The red led’s have a very low Vf requiring the driver to shed alot of extra voltage creating heat that kills the light output.

Kevin

kevind43 wrote:
@ OP the hs-802 comes in a few different forms much like the C8 you never know what your going to get. some have a nice brass pill some have an aluminum pill. There are huge differences between the brass pills also. I have measured over .070 in difference in height between several different pills measured. The final assembly requires shimming and filing to get the focus correct in the hs-802.

As delivered the hs-802 red puts out a dismal 8000Cd. My last hs-802 is putting out about 18,000Cd RED. You should be able to get close to that with a red xpe2 on a copper sinkpad at 1.4A

I appreciate your input. I was questioning a red xr-e after not finding one on Cree’s site, but a google search shows others selling what they also claim is a red xr-e. Apparently, many vendors are misleading folks.

You also mentioned a red xp-e2. Do you have a source for those, preferably already mounted on a sinkpad?

Lastly, you mentioned focusing the light. Do you typically have to shim or grind on the reflector to get focus on these lights?

MRsDNF
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IOS Is generally reliable. They have a red XPE.
http://intl-outdoor.com/cree-xpe-red-led-16mm-mcpcb-p-597.html
Edit. This is not XPE-2.

 

djozz quotes, "it came with chinese lettering that is chinese to me".

                      "My man mousehole needs one too"

old4570 said "I'm not an expert , so don't suffer from any such technical restrictions".

Old-Lumens. Highly admired and cherished member of Budget Light Forum. 11.5.2011 - 20.12.16. RIP.

 

kevind43
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mouser has xpe2’s but not on stars.

I have used the emitter that MRsDNF mentioned. They work well. They are mid bin xpe’s. In an HS-802 you could expect to get about 15,000Cd at 1.4A attached with AA epoxy, the Cd will drop to around 13,500 after a few minutes of run time.

Yes. almost always have to shim or file parts to get the the light focused for best throw/beam pattern. Manufacturing tolerances in the HS-802 are quite bad.

telephoneman
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MRsDNF wrote:
IOS Is generally reliable. They have a red XPE. http://intl-outdoor.com/cree-xpe-red-led-16mm-mcpcb-p-597.html Edit. This is not XPE-2.

I just ordered this. We’ll see how it goes.

Is this what I need to mount it? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835100013

kevind43
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telephoneman wrote:
MRsDNF wrote:
IOS Is generally reliable. They have a red XPE. http://intl-outdoor.com/cree-xpe-red-led-16mm-mcpcb-p-597.html Edit. This is not XPE-2.

I just ordered this. We’ll see how it goes.

Is this what I need to mount it? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835100013

Yes. also here

http://www.mtnelectronics.com/opencart/index.php?route=product/product&p...

telephoneman
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I have received the xpe-2’s in red(p3), and green(r2) from Mouser, along with 16mm sinkpads. Now it’s time for reflow soldering. But one question, how do I know which direction to put the LED on the sinkpad with respect to polarity?

kevind43
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telephoneman wrote:
I have received the xpe-2’s in red(p3), and green(r2) from Mouser, along with 16mm sinkpads. Now it’s time for reflow soldering. But one question, how do I know which direction to put the LED on the sinkpad with respect to polarity?

there is a tiny little “+” symbol next to the dome or look at the data sheets.

telephoneman
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Now I feel really dumb. I had looked at the data sheet on my phone, but never scrolled down far enough to see that part!!

telephoneman
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Thanks to the help from y’all, I reflow soldered an XP-E2 to a sink pad, replaced circuit board with a 1400ma, and filed a little to get the LED into the reflector.

It is a huge improvement over factory!! Now I want to mod every light I have!

djozz
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Congratulations, victory twice! 

(you've got yourself a great light, and BLF has won a soul for the modding crowd)

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Congrats Telephoneman!   Sounds great.

Thanks Djozz for the emitter testing above.Smile

lite1000
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I recently completed a build using an Ultracrap zoomie from Amazon with a red XP-E2 mounted on a sinkpad driven by a Qlite with (4) 7135’s. Had to do a lot of modifications to get good heatsink and to get the driver to fit and ground properly. It works and heat seems to be flowing good away from the led. Getting 1.54A at the tailcap on high so everything seems fine there. It’s bright but I still think it should be brighter. Not sure if I should move everything to a C8 host I already have or try and find a better lens since the one the light came with is junk or find a better zooming host. This is for coyote hunting by the way.

Also, has anybody tried to push the red XP-E2 higher than 1.5A? Not sure what it can handle properly heatsinked. By the way, the led is de-domed as well.

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I have driven them up 2.2a with no significant increase in output past 1.4-1.5a. However every time I make improvements in thermal performance the output goes up.

lite1000
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kevind43 wrote:
I have driven them up 2.2a with no significant increase in output past 1.4-1.5a. However every time I make improvements in thermal performance the output goes up.

I agree. Output seems to be very much related to temperature.

willie
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Most interesting. Was using red 3up Luxeon stars (ledsupply) with luxdrives but switched to Cree XRC (china sources) with mr16 drivers on my solar powered feeder lights. Typically drive them at less than 700ma and usually at 350ma for long life and solar efficiency. Been using red PT54s on my weapon lights. My crossbow has a 501 powered by a 18650 LIFEPO4 with orange peel reflector and my rifle has an aspherical 3 cell NiMH 18650 TR1200 host. Both builds use copper heat sinks and are mosfet switched, direct drive. My hand held is a 2D aspherical PT54 maglite powered by Tenergy NiMH.
Looks like Cree is improving RED light. Thanks for the report.