Review: MaxToch Mission M12

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Tom E
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Review: MaxToch Mission M12

MaxToch Mission M12 - single cell 26700/26650 thrower

* provided by MaxToch for feedback

Manufacturer's Specs:

Dimensions: 172mm length, 63 mm head, 33 mm body
Weight: 279g (Without battery)
Battery: 1pc 26700 battery or 26650 battery
Modes: Max-Mid-Min-Strobe-SOS
Emitter: CREE XM-L2 U2
Output (lumens): Hi-1200, Mid-640, Low-260
Distance: 615 meters
Runtime: Hi-2 hrs, Mid-4.5 hrs, Low-11 hrs
Finish: Military Grade
Waterproof: IPX-7 or IPX-8
Lens: AR coated
Accessories:

lanyard, o-ring, switch

Additional Specs:

  • true copper MCPCB (believe it's direct path, about 25 mm)
  • ~1,100 lumens OTF (@30 secs, measured in my PVC lightbox) on the provided 26700 cell
  • measured 98 kcd at 5 meters (626 meters)
  • body threads look like true square threading
  • rear tailcap switch - quality tactical (fwd clicky) w/black button (changed out to GITD)
  • The I.D. of the reflector is 5 mm larger than a HD2010 reflector, even though the head dimension spec is the same
  • no mode memory, but it resets to Hi quickly (within 1-2 secs when off), which is ok for me (for a 5 mode driver)
  • after adding 22 AWG wire in the tailcap spring, and charging the 26700 cell to a full 4.22v, cleaning up the tailcap threads and treating the tailcap threads and contact surfaces with NO-OX-ID, recorded a tail reading of 4.0A, lumens: 1,241 @start, 1,200 @ 30secs, and throw of 102.5 kcd taken at 5 meters (640 meters)

Here is the complete parts/accessories provided including the battery:

  The M12 is a new design by MaxToch recently released, listed here in the manufacturer's store on AliExpress. Currently it's listed as "no longer available", but this is temporary, according to their rep, since the 1st production batch got totally sold out - they said a 2nd run is in process. The light shares style and apparently components with their other newly launched model, the Sniper M24 here. The M24 is a 2 18650 cell version of the M12. This new product line is either a direct or partial response to requests and feedback provided by BLF members. Amanda, the MaxToch sales rep, has been reaching out to several of us for comments and recommendations, as well as supportive to our forum with group buys and being available online for questions and support.

 My primary requests were for a copper direct path MCPCB and an AR lens, and all their new models incorporate these features now. The excellent performance confirms the benefits of the upgrades. What I like about this light is it's a HD 2010 with style, performance, fit and finish.

Here's a view with several popular lights (from left, the UF F13 clone from TMART, Convoy L4, SupFire L6, M12, Yezl Y3, SS T08, HD 2010): 

With the lights I have the closest in form factor:

More views:

Note the AR lens has more of a bluish tint than usual purple, and fairly light. I like the fully exposed emitter - no blocking alignment piece:

Up against it's more budget friendly rival, but, you do have to invest a bit of mod time and money into an HD2010 to get the performance #'s the M12 does stock:

 

The Power Source

The cell MaxToch sells as an option with this light I found quite intriguing. I bought a Moli 26700 off of eBay a while back with the hope of getting good capacity, and good performance, but was disappointed on both of those features, plus difficulty finding a light that would fit one. I thought it would be comparable to a protected 26650, but it's a little longer, so makes it difficult to fit in most lights. This one with a rating of 5000 mAh puts it in a whole other level, and if it has the performance, then it would indeed be impressive. Here it's shown with some other common cells:

 Sure does look familiar, doesn't it? The labeling match's up very well with a KK. The 14-4 I assume is a date code (April 2014). I can't find this cell anywhere listed. In fact it's very difficult to find any 26700 cell. This is either specially made, or just too new to show up in the channel yet. Closer view next to the KK:

The cap, the look, the feel... Everything tells me it's made by the same manufacturer, just bigger and perhaps better. I tried a few other 26650 cells in the light and they all seemed to work fine. Here's the tail readings from several fresh charged cells:

MNKE IMR: 3.35A

KK ICR 4200: 3.72A

Powerizer: 3.85A

So with the new MaxToch ICR 5000 mAh 26700, I got a 4.0A tail reading. Hhmm - better than a Powerizer? Could be my Powerizers (and others) are getting old, so not sure if this is a fair comparison. In another DD light, I compared the MaxToch 26700 to the hot 2500 18650's, and the Efest IMR, LG HE2, and Samsung 25R all beat it, but not by much. I think this is in the class of performance of a true KK ICR.

 

Breaking It Down

The M12 is different than most single cell lights in that the battery is not accessed by removing the tailcap, rather where the tube threads to the head:

The tailcap assembly is removable to get access to the switch, but a PIA with those cutouts to apply pressure to:

Components of the stock tailcap assembly:

The threads here are rough and a little raw (not cleaned up), as you can see:

The dings below are from me - I used a needlenose, than a snap ring pliers and ended up scratching it up:

Here's the fwd clickie, nice quality from it's appearance:

I prefer GITD buttons, so replaced the stock black one. Just had to cut out the center knob to match the stock one:

Here's a view of the body to head threads. Notice nice and square. This is the best pic I've ever taken of threads (Smile):

This is the emitter on the star. Without removing it, I could sneak a peek at the edges of the board by the wires and it does appear to be true copper. At some time I'll fully dis-assemble the light to confirm, and confirm it's a true direct thermal path, though there are good and bad di-electric layers, and of this has a good one, there is not much difference in performance from a direct path:

Flat bottom reflector, but the MCPCB is wide enough to not be a problem with wire connections:

Reflector O.D.:

Reflector depth:

 

Reflector I.D. (best I could measure):

Next to a HD 2010:

HD 2010 I.D. (best I could do):

The + contact, driver access. With my usual needlenose, I could not budge this brass ring. I'm going to drill out the holes wider and deeper so I can apply more pressure. Nothing was glued on this light, but all threaded connections (tailcap, bezel) were very tight, but managed to open them by hand:

The only mod (I did so far) was to wire up the tailcap spring (below), using 22 AWG wire. I always test lights in the lightbox with a jumper wire on the cell vs. assembled with the tail and compare results. Most of the time there's loss's from the tail, and most of the time almost all the loss's are recovered by wiring the spring, and in addition, I'll clean and treat contact surfaces. Sometimes I get even higher readings with the mods than with the heavy gauge jumper wire. In this case with the 26700 cell, I picked up about 100 lumens (1,100 to 1,200), but I did measure a 130 lumen bump with the jumper wire.

NO-OX-ID right now is my favorite to use on electrical contact surfaces, including some threads, so it went on the inside threads and copper rim of the switch board:

 

Wall Beam Shots

Here's some comparative wall beam shots. The following lights were used, in order:

(Camera Settings: F4.0, 1/60s, ISO 4000, WB DayLight)

Yezl Y3 stock, measured throw at this time of 62.5 kcd:

MaxToch M12 stock (tailcap spring wired), measured throw at this time of 97 kcd:

SupFire L6 (heavily modded with BLF17DD driver, XM-L2 T6 4C LED), measured throw at this time of 52 kcd:

Convoy L4 stock, measured throw at this time of 39 kcd:

HD 2010 stock, measured throw at this time of 48 kcd:

SupBeam K40 (heavily modded for high amps and de-domed XM-L2 U2 1A), measured throw at this time of 315 kcd:

 

Conclusion

 I always liked the form factor of the HD 2010, the size, weight and feel, and currently I prefer the Yezl Y3 for it's quality, side switch, SS bezel, slightly bigger reflector. However both lights have to be heavily modded to make them perform well, while the M12 is there -- out-of-the-box with advanced performance, and additional quality. Is it perfect for me? No - I'd like to see a SS bezel, SS tail, and maybe a e-switch to make it ideal. But this light (and MaxToch) brought something truly unique to the table in having the capability of running a 26700 cell, then also providing a 26700 cell which is outstanding in performance, and I'm assuming runtime. I haven't tested the capacity yet on my Opus dream charger, but will soon. I'd expect it to meet or exceed the rated 5000, just like the KK 4000's do (typically they do 4200).

 Will I mod this light further? Well, of course I probably will - I'm not a fan of the standard 5 mode UI, and perhaps I will push it to see how much throw I can get from it at high amps and a de-domed XM-L2 U2 1A. I'd expect to hit 300 kcd.

If you look at the MaxToch M24, the head is identical in looks and dimensions to the M12, therefore, I'm thinking they are using the same driver. if so, the driver could possibly take 2 cells (8.4v). Amanda from MaxToch sent me a pic of the driver and it shows a big inductor on the board, so most likely it's a buck driver.

The M12 without the battery is listed for $67.50, a bit pricey for a budget thrower, but puts you right in the 95 to 100 kcd range with a fine built light. I'm not too impressed with the bag it comes I'd prefer a holster, but the NiWalker holster from FastTech fits this light perfectly, and for just $4, you can't go wrong.

 

Additional Notes:

June 18th, 2014:

  • Be aware the 26700 cells don't fit in the NiteCore i4 V2, but do fit in the JetBeam i4 Pro and the new Opus "Dream" charger. For the Opus, I needed to add thin magnets on each end to make contact.

June 20th, 2014:

  • Sorry, for those interested and already  own/saw a MaxToch, the finish on the M12 is not HA-III - it's not listed this way, like with the SN6X-2X. The finish is listed as "Military Grade". I found the M12's finish to be ok, not flat black like the SN6X-2X, so I consider it inferior to the SN6X-2X, maybe on par with a Convoy, maybe less, I'm not sure. I'm no expert with finish's though, and can't really tell quality easily. I reported this to MaxToch, along with the pill top issues I found. I can't say they spec'd it wrong though - no idea what "Military Grade" is or means. I'll try to post a pic next to the SN6X-2X, but you can see in the pictures above the finish is as shiny as others shown.
Edited by: Tom E on 06/20/2014 - 07:16
Tom E
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06/18/2014


I was able to unscrew the driver retaining ring by expanding the guide holes a little, then it came out pretty easy with a good needlenose:

Notice the brass center piece, in place of a usual spring. It's completely loose. I'm thinking this could/should be soldered to the driver:

The backside is completely clean. The brass button is held to the driver by force of the battery:

I removed the driver and MCPCB. There's lots of paste, no screws, and it's nice copper:

Almost 26 mm in diameter:

Driver, almost 28 mm:

Driver - main components is a MCU, FET, and inductor. Does this make it a buck? Will it work on 2 cells? Maybe?

There's the little guy - that R056. Think it need some piggyback companion?

 

Real copper, but is it a direct path? Well, was hoping for an overspill pad for the center thermal pad, but it didn't exist. The LED would have to be pulled to find out:

We were wondering if the heat sinking is good enough for high amps. Here's the weight of the bare head. It is a uni-body pill, and the pill top is part of the body and it measured ~1.8 mm thick:

Here's a HD2010 head, so, the M12 is actually a little heaver, maybe?

Well you sort of have to include the weight of the HD2010 pill, which is substantial. Maybe drop a couple of grams for the star and driver:

This is a concern. This is the pill top. It's actually black anodized, but the light is being reflected off of it in this pic:

The center is an indent, leftover from the machining process. The XinTD X3 has the same indent. The other ring around the center depression appears to be a slight bump or indent -- this is more concerning. The thermal grease they used is very thin, and pure white. There was a lot of it present, so I'm thinking there had to be a lot of gaps for it to hide in. I'm not liking this - I would normally attempt to sand this out, but since you would have to work down the housing, it's not easy. There is no other threaded joint at the pill top, so access is not so easy.

Battery Update - testing the capacity on the new V2 Opus charger, the 26700 tested at 5344 mAh (good news!), and a KK ICR 4000 button top tested at 4514 mAh. I haven't done many capacity tests on the Opus, so I'm not confident right now in it's accuracy, but couple others seemed to be in the ballpark.

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Very thorough review.
Makes me want to buy one now. Smile

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Almost the same performance as the Olight SR90! A fraction of the size and weight of the SR90 for a fraction of the cost!! The quality is as good as the Olight too. Thanks again Tom for another great review.

Hey Babe, check out my new light!!

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fantastic review there

MTAmanda
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Thank you very much for this fantastic review.

The 2nd production should be available within one week. As soon as it is ready, I’ll leave a message here.

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never had HD2010 style before maybe this M12 is my first Smile

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Thanks Tom.. excellent review.. it’s a nice light but ouch it’s definitely out of budget light category, hmm I missed the group buy on this light.. how much was it? :~
knowing you.. you probably will push this light into 1700+ lumens or maybe even more Big Smile

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I like the design of this light, and it looks like quality product Smile

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Aw-right Tom, nice review.
The SupFire L6 looks like it has a really nice tint and a fat spot.

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Fine review, Tom. I have been an admirer of the M12 from the get-go.

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Thanks for the review! I love it, it might just become my first 26650 thrower (waiting for the group buy Smile ). I actually like that it just has a tail switch, I'm not into fancy UI's and it makes modding with other drivers nice and easy.

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Thanks Tom E. My first question was going to be is the reflector the same as the HD2010. Thanks for the quick responce. I'd be interested in what the beams like comparing the two together at a distance if its on your agenda.

My current and or voltage measurements are only relevent to anything that I measure.

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Thank you for a well done review Tom!

Looking forward to see driver, more info about the mcpcb, and discharge result.

Seems like a pretty nice light. Although a tad expensive for a light with fairly classic "mediocre" 5- mode driver. Personally Im not a fan of the forward switch.

If maxtoch or someone is doing a Group-buy. Please make it a proper GB with a properly lowered price. Not just the equivalent of a 10% discount code. 

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Tom E
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MRsDNF wrote:

Thanks Tom E. My first question was going to be is the reflector the same as the HD2010. Thanks for the quick responce. I'd be interested in what the beams like comparing the two together at a distance if its on your agenda.

Yes - the reflector is also what I was interested in, compared to a HD2010 - figured many would be interested in these two head to head. The head outer dimension is basically the same between the two, but the bezel on the M12 is thinner, and the reflector design more efficient with a thinner top lip, so that's where the 4.85 mm gain for the I.D. comes in. I wasn't pleased how the white wall shots came out - doesn't show exactly what I was seeing in tint or brightness spread around the center beam.

I have to do some exploration to find an outdoor venue for shots. My backyard is quite small  - not much open land locally.

I'll update the OP with camera settings. Also, I got the discharge test running now while I'm at work - should take at least 10 hours... I'm doing the 26700 and a KK ICR 4000 button top.

I'll be adding updates once I crack open access to the driver and MCPCB as well. I pretty much hate the stock 5 modes too -- think many of us feel that way... Amanda -- are you reading? Please take note!! The tactical switch is a tough call - this may suite their targeted market well, but the SOS should go, and debatable about the strobe - some have a use for it, others don't, just wish it could be hidden better, though being the last mode with the modes restting to high when OFF isn't too bad because you never have to see it if you toggle through hi-med-lo-OFF. Lack of mode memory is an advantage in this case.

I would also like to see more aggressive heat sink fins, maybe working higher up the head. There's not enough in mass and surface area. I know it's a trade-off between function and style.

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I voted for this one in the group buy and spoke with Amanda about getting one of the first ones, but communications broke down somewhere along the way and I’ve missed out. I must’ve confused her with my SN51 purchase.

I’ll get back on that, as this looks like a very nice light. My shelves are filling up, might have to sell off something to make room, but… Wink

Appreciate the work here, with ticks in all the right boxes it’s pretty much a no brainer.

Dale

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If it sell for $40 I might take a bite… group buy for $40? :bigsmile:

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Thanks for the review! ^^

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Why Tom for such a nice review, now I want to buy now. Hope ya got time for another mod haha

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Thanx All! I'd love to even see $52 for a group buy - no bag, $12 option for the 26700 battery. Krono is the group buy man of choice for this - I have no interest in doing one -- too much work! Smile

Figure $30 is the regular discounted price on a HD2010, LED/star and AR lens are worth maybe another $12. There's another couple bucks for better quality components, and of course, you can't buy a 25 mm copper star (still to confirm), and so many untangibles, like the centering ring sucks on a HD2010 - they have been loose and so difficult to center the LED, you have to loosen the pill for a tight fit to the reflector, or use the o-ring on the pill (not a good idea), the anodizing finish, water resistance improvements with the high qual threads and o-rings, style, bigger reflector (more throw), better regulation from the driver so you can use quality cells and not worry about smoking the LED or having major heat sag droppage (classic problem with stock HD2010's), no chinese lottery on the driver. Also you don't have to worry about the crappy packaging from TMART, the nicks, finger prints on the lens or reflector, hit/miss quality of the reflector, fogged out lens.... I'm sure I can continue on this, ugh...

Even after addressing most of the HD2010 issues with mods, you are still left with a budget looking light less capable (smaller reflector, can't run 26700 cells) where every component basically has been replaced. I've got around $75 into a couple of HD2010 with copper pills, more closer to $100 considering 2-3 stages of mods over time. Don't get me wrong - I still like the HD2010 (keeps me busy), just the M12 is a different level.

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Great review and it sure is a nice light. I’m usually into the ZY-T08 for a light this size but that one is really nice.

Have you seen this driver yet from Lightmalls?

http://www.lightmalls.com/4-2v-single-lithium-5a-3-mode-led-driver-boar-...

4.2V Single Lithium 5A 3-Mode LED Driver Boar Cree XM-L T6 U2/SST50/MCE/SS-P7 (5-Pack)

Size: 17MM*10MMWorking Voltage: 2.7~4.5V (factory protection voltage: single lithium in 2.7V,Constant current output when the voltage is higher than the LED VF value) Temperature protection :55-60 degrees (Change to the low mode and flash one every 5seconds when protection) Constant current: 5A Low voltage protection: single lithium in 2.7V (the mode will change to low and flash two every 5 seconds when protecttion) Modes: 3 Mode (100%High – 30%Mid – 5%Low) Power cut off less than 2 secondschange the modes,more than 3 seconds,keep at the same mode.

This might be a nice option for this light. I bought a give pack a while back but they were not exactly right. More like 5% 80% 100%. I have another 5 pack on the way and they promised me that they programmed it right this time. The output was impressive for sure. I stuck one in a HD2010 and a few other lights. Supposed to get the next batch very soon, I’ll let you know how they work when they come in if you are interested.

It works good in a bigger light, but didn’t cut it in the C10’s that I built. It would go into protection almost right away.

I’m a junky, I mod lights so I can sell lights so I can buy more light to mod so I can sell lights to buy more lights to mod.

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Tom E wrote:

Thanx All! I'd love to even see $52 for a group buy - no bag, $12 option for the 26700 battery. Krono is the group buy man of choice for this - I have no interest in doing one -- too much work! Smile

Figure $30 is the regular discounted price on a HD2010, LED/star and AR lens are worth maybe another $12. There's another couple bucks for better quality components, and of course, you can't buy a 25 mm copper star (still to confirm), and so many untangibles, like the centering ring sucks on a HD2010 - they have been loose and so difficult to center the LED, you have to loosen the pill for a tight fit to the reflector, or use the o-ring on the pill (not a good idea), the anodizing finish, water resistance improvements with the high qual threads and o-rings, style, bigger reflector (more throw), better regulation from the driver so you can use quality cells and not worry about smoking the LED or having major heat sag droppage (classic problem with stock HD2010's), no chinese lottery on the driver. Also you don't have to worry about the crappy packaging from TMART, the nicks, finger prints on the lens or reflector, hit/miss quality of the reflector, fogged out lens.... I'm sure I can continue on this, ugh...

 

I see what you are saying. Although from a factory standpoint. Adding AR, copper mcpcb, and going from T6 to U2 is probably no more than 5$ over the regular parts. HD2010 GB price was about 20$.  That is about 30-40% discount. That is a Group Buy price!

M12 is 67$ with battery and holster. Battery might be around 10-12$. That leaves 55-57$ for light with holster. Remove 4$ for holster and we are down to 50-52$. Now if we could subtract 30% from 50$. Then we are looking at 35$ for the light. Then we are talking GB! Smile Or Maybe 45$ with battery.

IMO the whole purpose of a GB is to get a price way below what a typical 10-15% discount would give.

If the light were 52$ then why call it a GB? Its not even a special price or deal. Where is the discount???  Its just regular price minus some accessories that you are not paying for.

The term Group-Buy seems be be more and more watered down lately.

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LM Driver - Dang, yes - that driver does look interesting. That temp protection is a concern. If it trips right away in a C10, then it's probably reacting to the heat build up in the pill (housing and/or air). Always wondered bout this - in most conventional lights, we thermally attach the star to the pill top, then on the pill bottom we electrically/thermally attach the electronics... So we built a nice heat path direct to the driver... Hhmm, something seems wrong there. In C8's, I was typically adding copper in the pill, further reducing the air thermal barrier, and getting the pill housing itself heated up even quicker.

It has a hugh pile of resistors! I assume those are current limiting, not sensing. Do you know how the PWM's are with that driver?

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Nice figuring Race, except for one thing…the bottom line is ALWAYS going to be about the cost/sell ratio. If the original group buy on the HD2010 saw a 30% net savings, then it was because the HD2010 had that much ceiling. If the MAXToch Mission is already a good price over cost to produce, there’s no way they’re going to drop 30% off it for a group buy and lose money. Would you? So while it’s nice to figure every group buy should have those margins, it’s not realistic. Who knows? Maybe the Mission could be sold at cost for $15, but the quality bely’s that train of thought. And sometimes, when the manufacturer starts listening to the needs of the consumer, more parts have to be outsourced, driving up cost of production.

This is a new light, and the first run sold out quickly. Why should they discount it in order to sell, when they’re selling all they can make at asking price?

I’m in for one as soon as round 2 comes through, with the cell and the pouch. Amanda? Write me up, please don’t lose me on this next round…:)

Dale

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Tom E wrote:

LM Driver – Dang, yes – that driver does look interesting. That temp protection is a concern. If it trips right away in a C10, then it’s probably reacting to the heat build up in the pill (housing and/or air). Always wondered bout this – in most conventional lights, we thermally attach the star to the pill top, then on the pill bottom we electrically/thermally attach the electronics… So we built a nice heat path direct to the driver… Hhmm, something seems wrong there. In C8’s, I was typically adding copper in the pill, further reducing the air thermal barrier, and getting the pill housing itself heated up even quicker.

It has a hugh pile of resistors! I assume those are current limiting, not sensing. Do you know how the PWM’s are with that driver?

Just took the HD2010 into the shower to check the PWM and I couldn’t see any, but then I only notice it when it’s bad. Not too dark in there either. But it’s not bad anyway.

On the heat it’s a good question but I notice that I am most likely to have problems when it’s simply too small of a pill. So it’s probably a little of both. Little too no air and the heat is right there hitting it almost directly.

What this driver did when it got too hot was stick in high and then you had to shut it off to get back the modes and then it would do it again and again. I never did kill it doing that though. But I didn’t have it long, it was for Manxbuggy. He still has it that way I think. That was driving an XP-G2, if that makes a difference.

edit: it had no problems at all running an XP-G2 in a ZY-T08. It really made for a nice light that way.

I’m a junky, I mod lights so I can sell lights so I can buy more light to mod so I can sell lights to buy more lights to mod.

DB Custom
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I replaced it, due to those issues. If that was the same light. Put an BLF17DD in it with the STAR firmware. Don’t remember if that was an HD2010 and I also put one of Ryan’s copper pills in it or not. I’m thinking it was though. I forget too easily. Could it have been in a C10?

At any rate, I’ve always wondered the same thing…how is it we expect the pill to pull mega heat from the emitter, and keep the driver cool at the same time? We need some isolation, separation, freon!

Dale

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DBCstm wrote:
I replaced it, due to those issues.

It was a bummer that it wouldn’t work right in that light. I let him know before sending it but I think he just wanted to see what it was going to be like on high.

Did you end up getting to use the driver in something larger?

Yep it was in a C10, just no room at all for it to get rid of heat.

It’s funny but on a lot of lights with larger pills I prefer to just hang the driver from the contact board so it’s not making contact with the light at all. I never seem to have problems with them when I do that.

I’m a junky, I mod lights so I can sell lights so I can buy more light to mod so I can sell lights to buy more lights to mod.

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Want’s maximum overdrive in all his lights, little ones notwithstanding.

Dale

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I think it’s just in the box, waiting for it’s chance to shine. lol

Tom, do you feel like this Mission light will handle the full onslaught of a DD set-up? You mention that the mass is on the sparse side, will it do the full run?

Dale

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DBCstm wrote:
Want’s maximum overdrive in all his lights, little ones notwithstanding.

Right on!!

I’m a junky, I mod lights so I can sell lights so I can buy more light to mod so I can sell lights to buy more lights to mod.

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DBCstm im fully aware of the basics of retail stores. More than most. Selling things at loss is not uncommon as long as gain can be made in the long run.

Either way, back to the light. Neither of us know how much they earn, so why not aim for a considerably lower price? Afterall this is BLF.

If some vendor says huge sale. I expect huge sale, lots of products with great savings.

If someone says GB, im expecting a proper discount. Especially if many people buy. If not, don't call it a GB.

Maybe we should make some new names.

GBWRP - Group Buy With Regular Price.

This is the GB for people that just to like to buy things in groups. Getting a deal or saving any money compared to regular price is not important.

GPWLD - Group Buy With Low Discount

This is for people who feel a bit lonely just buying things with regular discount codes, and at regular sales..

Silly

BLF LED database – collaboration spreadsheet and latest news about where to buy LEDs
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/19342

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