[WIP][mostly retired] 17mm DD+7135 -- linear regulated driver w/ FET turbo

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wight
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[WIP][mostly retired] 17mm DD+7135 -- linear regulated driver w/ FET turbo

I recommend considering this FET+1 driver instead of the one discussed in this thread.

This driver functions fine, but requires many important firmware and flashing considerations. All versions of the driver in this thread requires extra special firmwares, NOT a plain version of STAR or a DrJones firmware. The original version and most other versions of the driver in this thread area also one-time-flash drivers for most users: without high-voltage programming equipment it's not possible to reflash them!  Reading through the thread should answer any questions you have relating to this subject.

This thread's driver offers relatively limited benefits over the newer FET+1 driver discussed in this other thread of mine:
[WIP] 17mm DD+single-7135 driver / single sided / Dual-PWM 

OK guys, here's a good reason to curse my name.  I present... a driver which you cannot physically assemble and which has no firmware available:

 

  • This is a combination 6*7135 and FET driver.  On top you have the ATtiny13A, all support components, and the FET.  On the bottom you have 7135 chips.  
  • This driver will accept either an LFPAK56 FET or a DPAK (TO-252) FET.
  • I used Eagle's normal [giant] 0805 pads, so there is actually a lot more space than there looks like.  A 0805 resistor is less than 2/3 as long as the overall length of the pads.  Much closer to 1/2 the length actually.
  • I just couldn't quite squeeze in a Zener diode.  I did leave enough space to replace D1 with a resistor, so stacking the Zener diode on C1 is still possible I guess.
  • Components have names following the convention Mattaus established with BLF17DD.
  • The voltage divider for LVP bypasses D1, so new values are required.  Stock Nanjg 105c values will not give correct results for low voltage protection.
  • I maintained 0.5mm of keepout around the edges on both sides of the board.  
  • This driver will require a special firmware.  It uses 4 pins on the ATtiny13A to control these things separately:
    A. 1*7135
    B. 2*7135
    C. 3*7135
    D. the FET 
  • This driver will be very difficult to assemble.
The way I imagine the [non-existent] firmware to generate modes is like so:
  1. Moonlight (unregulated w/ PWM on FET)
  2. 1*7135
  3. 2*7135
  4. 3*7135
  5. 3+1*7135
  6. 3+2*7135
  7. 3+2+1*7135 (6 total)
  8. Turbo (FET 100% duty cycle [wide open])

Shoutout to Chloe for her post #14 in this thread explaining how to set images to 100% in the Advanced Post Editor.

Break’s over for now. That was a long one! wight catchup WinkWinkWink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

Edited by: wight on 02/05/2015 - 20:19
RaceR86
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wight wrote:

I present... a driver which you cannot physically assemble and which has no firmware available

 

Awesome! Smile

(nice work)

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WarHawk-AVG
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Make two versions, one for the LFPAK56 FET and one for the DPAK (TO-252) FET

Is the center battery contact 5mm?

It uses the 3 output pins for the controlling of the 7135’s and/or FET correct

Use 0603 footprints, 0805 components will fit on those pads, think of them as high density 0805 architecture (but you probably already knew that)

Very very very interesting design idea for sure!

That’s a WHOLE lotta stuff going on in 17mm Smile

Rufusbduck
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You certainly know how to attract flies modders. I like this idea, the benefits of regulated output plus the overdrive of FET DD. Now you just need some programmer honey.

Three Tanna leaves to give him life, nine to give him movement. But what if he eats the whole bag?

Scott

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With something like this…I think it’s time we try (as a community) to utilize the ATtiny25..double the coding space Silly

Rufusbduck
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Texaspyro will frag your A$$ for running the signal trace under the AMC chips. Is it possible to shrink the center pad to allow the trace to run inside the chips?

Three Tanna leaves to give him life, nine to give him movement. But what if he eats the whole bag?

Scott

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Not if you want to solder a spring to it…it looks like a full 5mm pad that has some solder stop over it..any smaller and good luck even soldering a flipped over spring to it, 5mm is teeny tiny

Rufusbduck
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Eliminate the solder stop. For that matter, eliminate the center pin pad or shorten it.

Three Tanna leaves to give him life, nine to give him movement. But what if he eats the whole bag?

Scott

wight
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WarHawk-AVG wrote:
Make two versions, one for the LFPAK56 FET and one for the DPAK (TO-252) FET

Is the center battery contact 5mm?

It uses the 3 output pins for the controlling of the 7135’s and/or FET correct

Use 0603 footprints, 0805 components will fit on those pads, think of them as high density 0805 architecture (but you probably already knew that)

Very very very interesting design idea for sure!

That’s a WHOLE lotta stuff going on in 17mm Smile

  1. Why? As far as I can see they both fit, it just looks unattractive. This way nobody gets caught with a board/FET pair that don’t work together and has to wait weeks for Oshpark to send a new board.
  2. The pour is 6mm, the exposed contact is 5mm.
  3. It uses 4 output pins for that. PB1 is PWM, that is hooked up to the FET. I should swap PB0 and PB4 so that the single 1*7135 is also on a PWM pin (PB0).
  4. It works the other way too. I figure it’s easier to solder a 0603 on a 0805 pad than the other way around. Soldering 0805 on a 0603 is a minor pain in my butt. Thoughts?

WarHawk-AVG wrote:
With something like this…I think it’s time we try (as a community) to utilize the ATtiny25..double the coding space Silly
When the time comes I want 8k or more. 8k will hold a bootloader for programming without ICSP. You should be able to program a chip which has a bootloader using 3 wires or less. Header time! Unfortunately the ATtiny85 is probably the best candidate for that and in SOIC it’s only available in 208mil package, not the 150mil we use now. It won’t fit on boards like this one. The MLF package (20M1) is an option, but you can’t bring vias up under it and pass them over to pins like I did on this board. Also realistically it’s reflow only.

Rufusbduck wrote:
Eliminate the solder stop. For that matter, eliminate the center pin pad or shorten it.
Good suggestion. I was being lazy because I do not enjoy working on parts. I should make a new part that eliminates that pin and the stop. That will make it much easier to route in a semi-attractive manner. The trace still may end up under the pin. As long as you don’t have much chance of exposed copper (like a tented via that gets solder down inside it) I think it’s OK to route the trace under there.

Break’s over for now. That was a long one! wight catchup WinkWinkWink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

wight
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Also noteworthy:
The LED- via is 1.1mm. The BAT+ via is 1.5mm.

Break’s over for now. That was a long one! wight catchup WinkWinkWink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

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Might help the – via by putting some top copper at angles to the FET pad just to smooth out the bump so to speak, and provide a little more copper for current flow

Quite an interesting design

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WarHawk-AVG wrote:
Make two versions, one for the LFPAK56 FET and one for the DPAK (TO-252) FET

wight wrote:
Why? As far as I can see they both fit, it just looks unattractive. This way nobody gets caught with a board/FET pair that don’t work together and has to wait weeks for Oshpark to send a new board.

I can see advantages to both ideas. You have a point about versatility with the current superimposed FET layouts wight but an lfpak56 only design would give the board a bunch of extra space on the mcu side. I love a challenge so bring it on.

Three Tanna leaves to give him life, nine to give him movement. But what if he eats the whole bag?

Scott

wight
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I took RBD’s suggestion and deleted the middle pin on the 7135’s. (and I cleaned up the traces on the bottom) Remember, the pins are still there just with no exposed copper under them.

WarHawk-AVG – I doubt that current handling will change but I will add copper around the via as an aesthetic touch.

Good point about freeing up space RBD.

Here is the updated board:


Break’s over for now. That was a long one! wight catchup WinkWinkWink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

wight
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I knew I forgot to mention something.

I moved the solo 7135 onto PB0. The firmware should be able to put PWM on either the FET or the single 7135. With a single 7135 you can probably get moonlight low enough and still be regulated… I’m too lazy to try it.

Break’s over for now. That was a long one! wight catchup WinkWinkWink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

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It seems almost certain that a driver with one chip with a low pwm input will be capable of a lower moon mode than a driver with 8 chips at the same value. This made me think of WarHawks test board for 7135’s. By hooking that board up to a driver set to moon mode it should be possible to test various 7135’s to sort them by their low level output. They’re fixed and pretty uniform at full but not nearly as uniform at low levels. Now I have to find that thread again. Where is it? I saw it under the chair a minute ago.

Three Tanna leaves to give him life, nine to give him movement. But what if he eats the whole bag?

Scott

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So is this driver actually on the card of becoming a reality?

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Wow, I also have thought about adding one or two 7135 to a FET driver but you squeezed 6 on it. AWESOME!

Just publishing the Ostpark link, that we can Order and start to adjust the firmware for that driver.

wight
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Lothar wrote:

So is this driver actually on the card of becoming a reality?

Yes, I think so. The initial firmware may not be the best, but just last night I got help with a critical thing I didn’t understand. I’ll try it out PWM on PB1 today on yet another unfinished project.

Werner wrote:
Wow, I also have thought about adding one or two 7135 to a FET driver but you squeezed 6 on it. AWESOME!

Just publishing the Ostpark link, that we can Order and start to adjust the firmware for that driver.

Your wish is my command. For this driver and others that use multiple output pins I was thinking of using arrays for mode storage. Maybe a 2-dimensional array could hold all the modes and all the PWM settings at the same time. I think that might eat up a lot of memory though, I haven’t tried it.

Break’s over for now. That was a long one! wight catchup WinkWinkWink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

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Any updates on this?

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Honestly with what you are wanting to do…wouldn’t a ATtiny25A work better…same as the ATtiny13A but with 2K of programming space

I still think 0603 pads and still use 0805 components would free up alot of space, either way still an awesome build

wight
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Lothar wrote:

Any updates on this?

Good question! No firmware updates from me, I haven’t done anything useful.

I started to do something productive (not related to firmware) earlier today and then caught myself and fired up Eagle instead ;-). I’ve decided that RBD is right, the DPAK sized FET is a waste of space. The board now requires a Power-SO8 (LFPAK) sized FET. This shouldn’t incur any cost or performance penalty, so “it’s all gravy” as they say.

I’ve implemented the [June/July 2014] anti-boost fix for the DD drivers (eg I moved the decoupling cap electrically to the other side of the diode). I removed the resistors previously present which were related to driving the FET properly, IIRC they aren’t necessary for this after moving the cap.

Between those two changes the top of the board is looking a lot less hateful for anyone who has to solder this by hand. I think it looks completely doable now.

As usual note that there is no firmware so this hardware is just for firmware developers and masochists.

Here it is on OSH Park: Firmware Developers Only – 17mm DD+7135 v012

Break’s over for now. That was a long one! wight catchup WinkWinkWink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

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Wight, does this use the normal attiny13a?  If so, there has been firmware out for a little while that will do what you want it to do.  

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Interesting how the 7135 chips are addressable separately. That should greatly help improve efficiency on low/med modes. With an attiny13 though, only two can use PWM at a time and they share a counter. I’m guessing it would use PWM on the single 7135 (to cover all the low modes) and also on either the FET or the double 7135?

Although I think the desired behavior would probably fit into 1024 bytes, I don’t really see any reason to use an attiny13 on a custom driver instead of something with more space… attiny25 or 45 maybe? They don’t cost a lot more, and the extra room is always nice.

I suppose it wouldn’t be all that much beyond the existing alt-pwm driver code… one array for the pwm ceiling of each mode, one for the alt pwm ceiling, one for specifying which other channels should be on/off, maybe one to specify which pwm channel(s) should be used.

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Wight is designing this board but as of yet there isn’t any code written specifically for it. It would be great if someone with consummate coding skill could step up here to help flesh this out. If there is similar code already available say for rgb drivers that might be adapted it might cut the task down a bit.

Three Tanna leaves to give him life, nine to give him movement. But what if he eats the whole bag?

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RMM wrote:

Wight, does this use the normal attiny13a?  If so, there has been firmware out for a little while that will do what you want it to do.  

RMM, it does. I missed about 45 posts of development over on the STAR thread, but skimmed it afterwards. I didn’t think I missed something like that though. Are you sure there is a firmware which can handle this? It’s a pretty different proposition from what we do with other drivers. Either way, please link me to whatever you are thinking of! Big Smile

ToyKeeper wrote:
Interesting how the 7135 chips are addressable separately. That should greatly help improve efficiency on low/med modes. With an attiny13 though, only two can use PWM at a time and they share a counter. I’m guessing it would use PWM on the single 7135 (to cover all the low modes) and also on either the FET or the double 7135?

Although I think the desired behavior would probably fit into 1024 bytes, I don’t really see any reason to use an attiny13 on a custom driver instead of something with more space… attiny25 or 45 maybe? They don’t cost a lot more, and the extra room is always nice.

I suppose it wouldn’t be all that much beyond the existing alt-pwm driver code… one array for the pwm ceiling of each mode, one for the alt pwm ceiling, one for specifying which other channels should be on/off, maybe one to specify which pwm channel(s) should be used.

You are correct ToyKeeper – the two pins with PWM available are tied to the single 7135 and the FET. Really I suspect that with this many 7135 addressable like this you only need the PWM on the single 7135 for setting the brightness of moonlight. You’re also correct about the MCU – an ATtiny25 should fix any space issues. OTOH if the software fits on the same chips we use for everything else… meh.

Like I mentioned somewhere, I figure a 2D array representing each output from the ATtiny would work well. You could extend the array to cover PWM types as well. I could be wrong, I have no idea what impact on available resources an array like that would have… doesn’t seem like it would be that bad. That way you could say
(single7135, dual7135, triple7135, FET)
(1/255,0,0,0/255) – terrible moonlight
(100/255,0,0,0/255) – brighter moonlight, heh
(255/255,0,0,0/255) – 1*7135
(0/255,1,0,0/255) – 2*7135
(0/255,0,1,0/255) – 3*7135
(255/255,0,1,0/255) – 4*7135
(0/255,1,1,0/255) – 5*7135
(255/255,1,1,0/255) – 6*7135
(0/255,0,0,255/255) – FET Turbo

or anything along those lines you wanted. (I’m sure you understand this, but for the benefit of others reading… Nobody wants that many brightness levels in their regular mode group of course! You’d define the array accordingly with whatever modes you want, those are all examples.)

Break’s over for now. That was a long one! wight catchup WinkWinkWink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

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That’s more or less what I had in mind too. Except… 100/255 is a “moonlight” mode? On an XM-L2 with 1×7135 that’s like 80 lumens!

In any case, it doesn’t sound like it’d be particularly difficult to make the firmware for that type of driver.

I wonder if perhaps the 2×7135 circuit should have PWM instead of the 1×7135 circuit though… because otherwise you end up with a gap between 380mA and 760mA where no modes can exist, and another between 1520mA and 1900mA. The 2×7135 PWM option would make it gapless.

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I missed the part where you were trying to individually address 7135s.  I thought that you just needed 2 PWM outputs...that is possible.  

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wight
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RMM wrote:

I missed the part where you were trying to individually address 7135s.  I thought that you just needed 2 PWM outputs…that is possible.  

which firmware is that?

Break’s over for now. That was a long one! wight catchup WinkWinkWink
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

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wight wrote:
RMM wrote:

I missed the part where you were trying to individually address 7135s.  I thought that you just needed 2 PWM outputs...that is possible.  

which firmware is that?

STAR has dual PWM out now.

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What’s the purpose of that RMM? I’m workin on a new project (the dual head DX21 clone) [using a PIC 18F1824] with 4 PWM out’s (3 to the 2 emitters, one to a set of red/green battery indicator LED’s). For my purpose each emitter needs 1.5PWM lines (2 but using a series of BJT’s they can share one of them).

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The main purpose is being able to control a FET+7135 or a bank of 7135s then a single 7135 for a much lower and more stable moonlight--or any other combination imaginable.  It is also great for the new 25mm MT-G2 Noctigon with the 4 small XQ-E pads.  I am using the second output to power a 7135 slave board besides the main FET for the 4 XQ-Es.  

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