Springs!!

113 posts / 0 new
Last post
BlueSwordM
BlueSwordM's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 32 min ago
Joined: 11/29/2017 - 12:34
Posts: 4573
Location: Canada

Ok sorry, misltranlation on my part. I have asked him again, and he said that while 45% IACS beryllium copper is stiffer than copper after being worked on, it is actually slightly softer than copper before being worked on.

From what I can translate from French, he said that when forming 45% IACS beryllium copper into a spring, it has a slightly higher chance of breaking than copper, and much higher chance than 38% IACS beryllium copper. That is because 38% IACS beryllium copper contains more impurities added when making it, such as nickel and cobalt, giving it higher mechanical strength.

Finally, containing a higher percentage of copper and beryllium just makes it more expensive to produce.

TLDR: 38% IACS beryllium copper, while a bit weaker electrically, is stiffer than 45% IACS, before and after being formed, and is much less expensive to manufacture into a spring.

Sorry for the mistranslation, but I don’t speak or write much about these kind of topics much, like science, so I don’t always know the appropriate terms.

My very own high current Beryllium Copper springs Gen 3:
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/67401
Liitokala Aliexpress Stores Battery Fraud: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/60547

Enderman
Enderman's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 hours 21 min ago
Joined: 11/03/2016 - 22:42
Posts: 3928
Location: Vancouver, Canada

You don’t machine springs, they are bent into shape.
And also you DO want compressibility, if it’s too stiff it will plastically deform when compressed which is not what you want for a spring, it should remain in elastic deformation.

hIKARInoob
hIKARInoob's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 21 min ago
Joined: 08/28/2016 - 08:15
Posts: 3937

This makes sense. And no problem about the mistranslation, this is how we learn. Thumbs Up Beer

hIKARInoob
hIKARInoob's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 21 min ago
Joined: 08/28/2016 - 08:15
Posts: 3937
BlueSwordM
BlueSwordM's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 32 min ago
Joined: 11/29/2017 - 12:34
Posts: 4573
Location: Canada

@Enderman, yes, you want compressible enough springs, not too stiff. Beryllium copper 38% IACS is good in that regard. In fact, phosphor bronze and beryllium copper 38% IACS are quite good in this regard.

However, as seen by djozz in his test, springs that collapse are a problem when looking for higher conductivity, as they collapse quite easily. This is not in relation to stiffness, but elastic memory when being compressed.

We want spring with good elastic memory.

Stiffness Elastic memory goes in an increasing manner:

Copper < Beryllium Copper 45% IACS < Phosphor Bronze B-2 15% < IACS-Beryllium Copper 38% IACS ≤ Phosphor Bronze B-2 19% IACS < Stainless steel

Edit: Haha I absolutely love Beavis and Butthead. Such a great show Thumbs Up

Edit 2: IMPORTANT

I made a mistranslation again. By stiff

Beryllium copper IACS 38% is a good material for a spring in terms of stiffness, and is the best balance between electrical conductivity, cost, and elastic memory. Phosphor bronze is a bit cheaper, but we already these in most sizes. A tall, not short high current spring is what’s lacking.

My very own high current Beryllium Copper springs Gen 3:
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/67401
Liitokala Aliexpress Stores Battery Fraud: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/60547

Barkuti
Barkuti's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 40 min ago
Joined: 02/19/2014 - 14:46
Posts: 3702
Location: Alhama de Murcia, Spain

Well, besides a nice laugh I've had after discovering the title of hIKARInoob's linked video (to my Spanish native speaking mind that sounds Big Smile “moñoñoñoñoñoño”), I have an interesting question in this regards fellows: What is the relative hardness of these spring alloys versus the hardness of the usual standard carbon steel cutting pliers are usually made of? You know, if the allow is slightly softer it can be of cutting edge Big Smile help. 

 

Cheers Party

Agro
Agro's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 hours 43 sec ago
Joined: 05/14/2017 - 11:16
Posts: 4170
Location: Ślōnsk

It would be interesting to make it narrow for reverse mounts. By reverse I mean that the thick end touches battery. Lone Oceans does so to gain more space on his drivers.

BlueSwordM
BlueSwordM's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 32 min ago
Joined: 11/29/2017 - 12:34
Posts: 4573
Location: Canada

Well, guys, we may have a problem.

Most of the Chinese companies got back to me, and they said that while they said Beryllium Copper 38% IACS is not much more expensive than phosphor bronze, they would have to order separetely the material, and for 200 pcs, it would probably exceed my original price point.

The only way I could get them at a reasonable price would be at onne of thr companies which sells 1000 pcs of them for 350$ everything included, since it is a custom order

Now, that would be a bit overkill. Even a group buy would be hard pressed to sell all of these units, and I do not have enough hobby money to afford all of that, and space.

So, unless someone, or many people, are willing to split the difference, I don’t think the group buy is going to be successful.

So it is a bit problematic.

My very own high current Beryllium Copper springs Gen 3:
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/67401
Liitokala Aliexpress Stores Battery Fraud: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/60547

Tom Tom
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 1 day ago
Joined: 09/10/2017 - 08:30
Posts: 1163

BlueSwordM wrote:
Well, guys, we may have a problem.

Most of the Chinese companies got back to me, and they said that while they said Beryllium Copper 38% IACS is not much more expensive than phosphor bronze, they would have to order separetely the material, and for 200 pcs, it would probably exceed my original price point.

The only way I could get them at a reasonable price would be at onne of thr companies which sells 1000 pcs of them for 350$ everything included, since it is a custom order

Now, that would be a bit overkill. Even a group buy would be hard pressed to sell all of these units, and I do not have enough hobby money to afford all of that, and space.

So, unless someone, or many people, are willing to split the difference, I don’t think the group buy is going to be successful.

So it is a bit problematic.

Just as well. Beryllium is a nasty metal, I’ve had to use it in aerospace applications (mostly the oxide beryllia BeO for it’s thermal properties, with tight control throughout the lifecycle), but it is not something to be used ubiquitously.

It used to be used in solid rocket motors, but that was insane.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beryllium_oxide

“Formation of BeO from beryllium and oxygen releases the highest energy per mass of reactants for any chemical reaction, close to 24 MJ/kg”

I doubt there is any danger in spring wire, but other alternatives are available with decent design.

https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/beryllium/index.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beryllium_copper

hIKARInoob
hIKARInoob's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 21 min ago
Joined: 08/28/2016 - 08:15
Posts: 3937

I know Beryllium from the aerospace application as well, due to stupid high specific E-modulus. Odd this is not mentioned in the osha link.

BlueSwordM
BlueSwordM's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 32 min ago
Joined: 11/29/2017 - 12:34
Posts: 4573
Location: Canada

The problem is the quantity.

Do you think I should make an group buy interest page for the Beryllium Copper Springs in the same size as the Djozz springs? They can handle twice the current, so they could be a replacement for spring bypasses.

If I can have enough interest in enough springs(at least 500 springs to be sold) then I will consider making the order.

My very own high current Beryllium Copper springs Gen 3:
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/67401
Liitokala Aliexpress Stores Battery Fraud: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/60547

djozz
djozz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 hours 13 min ago
Joined: 09/07/2012 - 17:04
Posts: 15180
Location: Amsterdam

My springs had a base diameter of 10mm, that was just a bit too wide for a standard tailboard, I would suggest a 9mm base diameter.

I’d buy a few Smile

BlueSwordM
BlueSwordM's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 32 min ago
Joined: 11/29/2017 - 12:34
Posts: 4573
Location: Canada

You are lucky. Here are the measurements I gave to the Chinese companies:

- Material: C17530 with IACS of 38%

- Spring upper diameter: 7mm

- Spring base diameter: 9mm

- Spring thickness: 1mm

- Spring height: 12mm

- Plating: Zinc plating/gold plating

- Total number of coils: 5

- Free length: 0 mm

UPDATE

I am going to make an interest list soon enough.

My very own high current Beryllium Copper springs Gen 3:
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/67401
Liitokala Aliexpress Stores Battery Fraud: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/60547

Agro
Agro's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 hours 43 sec ago
Joined: 05/14/2017 - 11:16
Posts: 4170
Location: Ślōnsk

Maybe some retailers like MTN would be interested in getting large quantities?

Tom Tom
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 1 day ago
Joined: 09/10/2017 - 08:30
Posts: 1163
hIKARInoob wrote:
I know Beryllium from the aerospace application as well, due to stupid high specific E-modulus. Odd this is not mentioned in the osha link.

I’ve also used it in F1 brake calipers. Superb, but so expensive, as for the the protection we had to use machining them … Shocked

Now banned in F1, got to keep it real.

Ideal for springs though, nothing better.

SKV89
Offline
Last seen: 31 min 5 sec ago
Joined: 12/10/2017 - 12:46
Posts: 2502
Location: US

BlueSwordM wrote:
Well, guys, we may have a problem.

Most of the Chinese companies got back to me, and they said that while they said Beryllium Copper 38% IACS is not much more expensive than phosphor bronze, they would have to order separetely the material, and for 200 pcs, it would probably exceed my original price point.

The only way I could get them at a reasonable price would be at onne of thr companies which sells 1000 pcs of them for 350$ everything included, since it is a custom order

Now, that would be a bit overkill. Even a group buy would be hard pressed to sell all of these units, and I do not have enough hobby money to afford all of that, and space.

So, unless someone, or many people, are willing to split the difference, I don’t think the group buy is going to be successful.

So it is a bit problematic.

Maybe you can talk to Richard at Mountain to see if he wants to buy a portion of it for his store.

BlueSwordM
BlueSwordM's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 32 min ago
Joined: 11/29/2017 - 12:34
Posts: 4573
Location: Canada

Ahh that would be perfect. I did not think about Richard. He would perhaps like it. Especially now since he could sell many more springs since while the short springs are excellent, the problem is they are short.

My very own high current Beryllium Copper springs Gen 3:
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/67401
Liitokala Aliexpress Stores Battery Fraud: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/60547

contactcr
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 15 min ago
Joined: 05/19/2017 - 18:52
Posts: 1907
Location: US

Can the 1,000 order minimum be between two sizes?

I think 9mm base diameter is still too wide to fit onto a small board with 7135’s loaded on the same side as spring. If you could make a skinny one and one as you describe to meet the minimum that might be better

BlueSwordM
BlueSwordM's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 32 min ago
Joined: 11/29/2017 - 12:34
Posts: 4573
Location: Canada

I will try to make 500 of each. Let me just update my interest post, and I will ask the Chinese company.

My very own high current Beryllium Copper springs Gen 3:
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/67401
Liitokala Aliexpress Stores Battery Fraud: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/60547

g_damian
g_damian's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 hours 39 min ago
Joined: 08/20/2017 - 06:52
Posts: 393

I’ll probably take at least 20. So for 10 lights only… I don’t think that 1000 is unrealistic number for group buy. Smile

BlueSwordM
BlueSwordM's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 32 min ago
Joined: 11/29/2017 - 12:34
Posts: 4573
Location: Canada

Of course. I will add you to the list in my other post.

http://budgetlightforum.com/node/61145

My very own high current Beryllium Copper springs Gen 3:
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/67401
Liitokala Aliexpress Stores Battery Fraud: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/60547

BlueSwordM
BlueSwordM's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 32 min ago
Joined: 11/29/2017 - 12:34
Posts: 4573
Location: Canada

@djozz, how many springs are you interested in?

My very own high current Beryllium Copper springs Gen 3:
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/67401
Liitokala Aliexpress Stores Battery Fraud: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/60547

Pages