Nichia 219C, testing a 5000K 83CRI emitter, comparing with a XP-G2 S4 2B and other leds

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MG
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Wow, nice photomicrograph! Worthy of a scientific journal. I always enjoy your reviews. And it looks like this emitter is going to find itself on many shopping lists.

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Man you are a record H) thanks for the whole work, guys like you makes the life easy

But i have a question the Nichia leds have a very nice tint so why dedoming it as long as using them are not meant for throwing ?

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Thank you djozz!
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I wanted to do a little mod with this led, to see what it does, and to be able to judge the tint. Thinking about how to make use of the low voltage and high output, it was going to be a small 16340 EDC-light, not surprisingly my favorite type Wink . But I think where this led really stands out is a 18350 battery EDC, like the Convoy S2+, with a FET-driver and a smooth reflector for some throw. But I did not have that host. Oh, and a single 18650 triple on a FET-driver will be a beast (2500+ OTF lumen), comparable with triple dedomed XP-L's but a bit better throw and light quality (even more true for the 90+ CRI versions of the 219C).

So I had this little Supfire S1:

The mods that were done:

*changed the switch to a small Omten instead of the dubious stock switch (had to mod the tail section a bit for this)

*bypassed the tail spring with 20AWG silicon wire

*Nichia 219C 5000K 83CRI on a 16mm Noctigon, Arctic Silver 5 thermal paste

*AK-47-A1 based single-sided FET-driver, 3 modes (5,25,100) + memory

*AR-coated lens, changed green o-ring for black one.

 

Glamour shots of the led (actually this led does not look that elegant with those white blobs on the side):

 

Performance (on a Efest IMR 16340 V2 550mAh):

*3,3A on high, quite steady, not skyrocketing down at all (how's that for a 16340 battery!)

*800 OTF (djozz-) lumen at start, 700 lumen after 30 seconds (mostly heat-sag). The light gets very hot after a minute, but keeps performing with handcooling.

*Convincingly bright hotspot,  (have not measured throw yet, but mind it is just a small OP-reflector..)

*Nice neutral tint. It is difficult to judge the 83CRI for me, my brain has been trained to associate high CRI with a warmer tint (my favourite colour temperature is 3500K) and this tint is over 5000K. But the tint is very pleasant neutral white with no hints to green or red or whatever.

Conclusion: this is XM-L2 performance in a 3535-package. The only competitor for this performance in small EDC's is a dedomed XP-L (which is comparable throwy and a bit more efficient). But when the 90+ CRI version of the 219C is there, all my lights will have swaps again!

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Thanks for the update djozz. You have to love the low voltage requirements of this led.

 

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djozz wrote:
But when the 90+ CRI version of the 219C is there, all my lights will have swaps again!

Any idea when we can expect them?
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finges wrote:
djozz wrote:
But when the 90+ CRI version of the 219C is there, all my lights will have swaps again!

 

Any idea when we can expect them?

I can't find in which thread it was, but DBCstm asked them on the phone and if I remember well they answered somewhere september.

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This LED is astonishing! If we consider that there is a CRI 70 Variant that is one brightness bin higher (D320) and somebody would succeed in dedoming these bad boys… Yeah Cree, better come up with something.

Too bad, that there isn’t a NCS…Version, like there was with the B and B-V1 series. To me, it appears, that the NCSL and NCSW have smaller dies than the NVSL and NVSW. If I got that right, NCS where binned at half the current of NVS, have little less efficiency, but share the same maximum ratings for current.

There are some things people should try to understand when talking about Nichia LEDs. Not claiming, I know all that stuff about these Nichias, but I’ve seen many comparisons between 219A and 219B and got the feeling the one who did it didn’t know that there are many 219A’s and B’s… They compared tints, saying 219A is warmer than 219B, that’s like saying XP-G is warmer than XP-G2 Wink

EDIT: forgot the most important part: thank you djozz for testing. You should be considered for the MVT-award (most valuable tester). Would you mind taking some beamshots to show us a hint of the tint?

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chouster wrote:
This LED is astonishing! If we consider that there is a CRI 70 Variant that is one brightness bin higher (D320) and somebody would succeed in dedoming these bad boys... Yeah Cree, better come up with something. Too bad, that there isn't a NCS...Version, like there was with the B and B-V1 series. To me, it appears, that the NCSL and NCSW have smaller dies than the NVSL and NVSW. If I got that right, NCS where binned at half the current of NVS, have little less efficiency, but share the same maximum ratings for current. There are some things people should try to understand when talking about Nichia LEDs. Not claiming, I know all that stuff about these Nichias, but I've seen many comparisons between 219A and 219B and got the feeling the one who did it didn't know that there are many 219A's and B's... They compared tints, saying 219A is warmer than 219B, that's like saying XP-G is warmer than XP-G2 Wink EDIT: forgot the most important part: thank you djozz for testing. You should be considered for the MVT-award (most valuable tester). Would you mind taking some beamshots to show us a hint of the tint?

Thanks Smile

I have tested one small die NCS.. 219B led half a year ago, it was for sale at Kaidomain for a brief period. It performed incredibly well compared to the XP-E2, much higher output, higher current capability. But there are three reasons why Nichia's (other than two well-known high CRI types) are not used: 1) anything not Cree is disliked 2) they are hard to dedome, and dedoming is a big hobby over here, 3) Nichia's are notoriously unavailable (that is: in small quantities for private customers) while Cree is everywhere. Here's the thread: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/36386

I have once done a series of tests trying to reproduce white tints with digital camera and monitor, and the clear result of that is that it does not work, does not even come close to reality, in photo's colours disappear and other appear out of nowhere. You can just about distinguish a warm tint from a neutral and cool tint and that's it. Some folks try to show differences between two neutrals on the internet and that's just impossible. Especially our wonderfull 90+CRI leds which in real life show the colours most vibrantly, in a picture on your computer monitor does not look any better than a middle-of-the-road 70CRI neutral. So I will show no beamshots of this 219C led because it will give you even less information as a description in words. Threads: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/23355 and http://budgetlightforum.com/node/25010 .

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djozz wrote:

chouster wrote:
This LED is astonishing! If we consider that there is a CRI 70 Variant that is one brightness bin higher (D320) and somebody would succeed in dedoming these bad boys… Yeah Cree, better come up with something. Too bad, that there isn’t a NCS…Version, like there was with the B and B-V1 series. To me, it appears, that the NCSL and NCSW have smaller dies than the NVSL and NVSW. If I got that right, NCS where binned at half the current of NVS, have little less efficiency, but share the same maximum ratings for current. There are some things people should try to understand when talking about Nichia LEDs. Not claiming, I know all that stuff about these Nichias, but I’ve seen many comparisons between 219A and 219B and got the feeling the one who did it didn’t know that there are many 219A’s and B’s… They compared tints, saying 219A is warmer than 219B, that’s like saying XP-G is warmer than XP-G2 ;) EDIT: forgot the most important part: thank you djozz for testing. You should be considered for the MVT-award (most valuable tester). Would you mind taking some beamshots to show us a hint of the tint?

Thanks :)

I have tested one small die NCS.. 219B led half a year ago, it was for sale at Kaidomain for a brief period. It performed incredibly well compared to the XP-E2, much higher output, higher current capability. But there are three reasons why Nichia’s (other than two well-known high CRI types) are not used: 1) anything not Cree is disliked 2) they are hard to dedome, and dedoming is a big hobby over here, 3) Nichia’s are notoriously unavailable (that is: in small quantities for private customers) while Cree is everywhere. Here’s the thread: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/36386

I have once done a series of tests trying to reproduce white tints with digital camera and monitor, and the clear result of that is that it does not work, does not even come close to reality, in photo’s colours disappear and other appear out of nowhere. You can just about distinguish a warm tint from a neutral and cool tint and that’s it. Some folks try to show differences between two neutrals on the internet and that’s just impossible. Especially our wonderfull 90+CRI leds which in real life show the colours most vibrantly, in a picture on your computer monitor does not look any better than a middle-of-the-road 70CRI neutral. So I will show no beamshots of this 219C led because it will give you even less information as a description in words. Threads: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/23355 and http://budgetlightforum.com/node/25010 .


So… next we need high CRI monitors to view beamshots on! :bigsmile:

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DavidEF wrote:

So... next we need high CRI monitors to view beamshots on! :bigsmile:

Well, actually that is far from enough: you need camera's in which each pixel records the full spectral distribution of the incoming light, and display monitors that in each pixel not just emits RGB, but full spectrum as well. Not until then you are close to a solution Tired

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Now Nichia needs to scale up the 219 to make an emitter to complete with the XM-L2/XP-L.

Without lamps, there’d be no light.

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Tester's horror!

Last night I was measuring things in my integrating sphere and I had the uncomfortable feeling that the reading of my luxmeter was a bit high, like a few percent, not much. And during the testing suddenly the readings were way off! It appeared that the battery was empty, it was actually very very weak. The meter apparently can run the battery very low before failing, but does not give any indication in the display, which was quite unexpected for a high-end luxmeter. And then the really horrifying thing struck me: how long has it been reading too high?

The last serious test I did was the Nichia 219C, so this one had to be done again Tired  . Luckily I had ordered two more of these, along with two for another BLF-member, so I did the test again today. Here's the results of the second led together with the first results from the OP.

 

Ok, I got away with it, the second led does not test significantly different from the first one, so the story of the OP still stands. As you can see the second led has a slightly higher Vf (~0.03V), and (only at the higher currents) a slightly lower output. So the efficiency is a tiny bit less. The output difference above 5A could be explained by a slightly worse heatsinking, inside the led, or perhaps it is reflowed a bit worse.

I does look like the luxmeter was working fine during the test in the OP.

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djozz wrote:

The output difference above 5A could be explained by a slightly worse heatsinking, inside the led, or perhaps it is reflowed a bit worse.

This exact LED according to the datasheet has a tolerance of 6.25%  So the same exact LED under the same voltage bin can have a significant difference without thinking of reflow or micro-metric errors.

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10 amps! Surprised Your not doing any testing on me. Thanks for the update djozz and sense you must be scratching for something to do?

 

djozz quotes, "it came with chinese lettering that is chinese to me".

                      "My man mousehole needs one too"

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@ djozz: Oh man, I feel a bit stupid now, because I’ve stumbled upon that test you did some time ago, but without realizing that it was a NCS.. 219B. Even that one looks pretty interesting even though it’s a B. They have NCS.. 219B-V1 and I regret that I haven’t ordered some of them last time I ordered some LEDs from Nichia via Lumitronix. Anyways, it’s a pity that there isn’t a NCS.. 219C, because if there was, it would probably outthrow every other LED we’re using in our builds…

You may be right about photographing tints of LEDs and their color reproduction, no, sure you’re right about that. You can’t show how they look to your eye in real life in a photo. But I think, you can show at least a little difference to lower CRI LEDs. I’m going to try it out, not going to be of great scientifical value, but fun to me. I have NVS…219BT-V1 in sw40, sw50 and sw57 and the first thing I want to do with them is building a single P60-drop-in with each tint, just to find out what I like best.

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Thanks djozz, very good work as other ones you have done in the past. I am not familiar with the issues of dedoming Nichias but isn’t the gasoline method safe and reliable with Nichias? Why did you try the hot dedoming instead of the gasoline method?

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nikosb wrote:
Thanks djozz, very good work as other ones you have done in the past. I am not familiar with the issues of dedoming Nichias but isn't the gasoline method safe and reliable with Nichias? Why did you try the hot dedoming instead of the gasoline method?

It is a bit of stubbornness, I had one bad result in the past with the gasoline method and hot dedoming always works fast and reliable for me (with Cree emitters). And there's only so many emitters that I want to sacrifice, so I leave it to others  to find out about this.  My fear is because Nichia's have stiffer domes gasoline dedoming does not work out so well as with Cree leds.

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Djozz, i have a favour to ask ( for us all Wink ) Can you pleace test Nichia vs XPG2 with a smaller heatsink, or straight in a C8 body
Those would be real life flashlight conditions, it would be interesting to see the lumen output when temps are 85+ deg C

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Mitko wrote:
Djozz, i have a favour to ask ( for us all Wink ) Can you pleace test Nichia vs XPG2 with a smaller heatsink, or straight in a C8 body Those would be real life flashlight conditions, it would be interesting to see the lumen output when temps are 85+ deg C

Sorry, I'm done testing for a few weeks, from tomorrow on I will be away with the family camping on Terschelling Smile . There will be enough opportunity to keep rattling on on the forum, but nothing practical can be done.

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Thank you for this test!

KKW sent me the link to this graph yesterday and in turn, I became interested in Nichia LEDs for the first time in ages after reading it. So I went looking for some lights I have that were not worth doing anything with, and found that I do have 219B LEDs on hand. Both “NCS” and “NVS” versions, which is like XPE and XPG. Not the C version, no. But something to fiddle with.

Here’s a few things I noticed:

The 219B uses a first-layer semi-conductor that is somewhat sunk into the apparent die face. It exists on what looks like a full circular trace of copper or gold plated metal—no bond wires anywhere I could see. You can scrape off the entire yellow phosphor layer, taking no precautions, as if trying to kill it. When I finished doing this, my NVS lights up blue just like the first layer is supposed to emit blue. It appears the die phosphor is added, then a white solid glue/silicone is added after that. Which creates the look like the first layer is buried in the ceramic. This construction technique must have something to do with the very large amperage overage they can take without popping. Try scraping a Cree down to the semiconductor and see if it still turns on! 0:)

The B version uses a pattern of quantum wells that are in-line. There are 4 rows of 4 dots for 16 dots visible on the NVS 219B, and just 2×2 on the NCS version.

What I noticed is that the C version you tested here is very similar in look to the Cree semi-conductor, they are staggered rows of quantum wells under the phosphor, not straight rows+columns. This indicates the 219C may be using the same semi-conductor wafer material as found on Cree’s E2/G2/L2 line, they maybe just get power to it very differently.

All in all it’s definitely worth trying, though the de-dome will go much different I feel. I’m about to find out what happens after they soak for a day.

I like bright lights, and I cannot lie.

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So where, how, and how much for these LED’s?

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Henry, you know where to get them, stop playing games with us. Silly Beer

Here’s some of what I was thinking about, when encompassing the “high” forward voltage changes we are seeing over time, and just general LEDs we are seeing as time moves ahead. It’s important to look at another industry to understand where I’m leading.

If you think about the core technology driving the common white phosphor-LED, most know what it is. I think just a grade of silicon semiconductor, just like Intel and AMD use to do processing with computer chips—with LED silicon arranged to do a much different type of work when made. If you think about the core “product” in these LEDs that can make them potent for throwing, then, it’s really not the phosphor, the bond wires, or the domes really; the “nuts and bolts” are the same between most of the MFGs. Manufacturers are capable from what we’ve seen, of making near identical components like those, and arranged how they want them. I would ask what it is that they (LED makers) cannot completely control, then, and again I think of the semiconductor.

Silicon semiconductor wafers are usually something a large company buys from another large company who specializes in the production of intricate, advanced semiconductor growth through advanced methods of stereo lithography types of production. The LED maker implements that final chip somehow into their product as they see fit, to do its job as they see fit, which includes handling heat dispersal methods. The silicon itself has much different standards than the rest of the LED, but likely similar in many.

It would not surprise me then, if some LED makers used the same exact silicon wafer material in their LEDs.

This is also why I brought up the ‘quantum wells’ looking similar, or the “holes” you see in an LED die surface now instead of line traces—between Cree and Nichia.

Have you ever heard of Moore’s Law? Take a look at computer processors of recent years. (Moore’s Law)’s_law#/media/File:Transistor_Count_and_Moore%27s_Law_-_2011.svg It’s not an actual law, but it, for the most part held true for a very long time as a ratio to product.

Then silicon makers started meeting the end of a dark tunnel; they were getting close to exceeding the trace limit width, defined in our physical world by the size of a few atoms. Talk of this started happening as far back as 2010. We cannot break this law, fundamental to nature, or make something smaller than an atom. Computer processors adapted, instead of increasing transistor count by making the chips smaller with more micro transistors and traces, they condensed more CPU chips into one piece of silicon, creating larger, multi-core processors, that weren’t actually smaller inside; the overall package and footprint remained the same. It was like taking a Prius car, and combining 4 of their engines, but still inside one Prius. Wink The “engine technology” is there which is efficient and now, and power still grows. Oh well, Moore knew his ‘law’ had to have an end someday. Wink

Someone mentioned on BLF the fact that chips have gotten bigger, brighter, but for this many years to go by, surface intensity has not increased exponentially above the old XR-Es we would likely have expected back then while predicting forward.

If you feel this same sort of parallelism between silicon makers, it tempts me to believe the LED world is running down that same tunnel. They can get the silicon to do a little better, and a little better some more, but to get the lumens they need, they went to mutli-chip use instead of driving up the intensity, regulated by the silicon semiconductor inside. I believe we will see LEDs stop at their current sizes, and possibly start to grow outward. This is even showing by Cree claiming new intensity, by simply applying little dome material. If they could, the dome would stay, and we would see those big intensity gains. The market isn’t calling for it. Efficient chips, with high L/W are needed.

My point with all this is not a great one, I just think it might offer some explanation as to why we are seeing things that make us flashlight users frown at times, like high Vf.

So unless everyone out there forgets about flood right now, starts buying aspherics, and showing what a sucker they are for big THROW, Cree simply isn’t going to pay any attention to us. Ha, if only… :bigsmile:

I like bright lights, and I cannot lie.

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Whew. That’s a lot of words, MEM.

Here’s one picture:

Recent news from Intel shows Moore’s law to be stumbling and staggering a little.

On the other hand, Haitz’s law, which applies to LEDs, seems to be healthy.

Note the logarithmic scale on the vertical axis.

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Great test and results djozz, great to see how far these new gen emitters can be driven, the new nichia certainly looks much improved and the xpg2 out put is impressive, thanks for posting, much appreciated.

Old Mate

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I’ve been in contact with a company to buy 219C’s. I’ll probably be ordering them tomorrow, with extras to sell.

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LEDs are not built out of traditional silicon. They use things like indium, gallium, nitride, with a sprinkle or two of stuff like phosphorus. Some LEDs use a silicon carbide base, others use a sapphire base or some other exotic material. There is a LOT of work going on to find a good way to build LEDs on cheap silicon substrates.

All of these materials are a lot harder to work with than pure silicon. The bare material wafers used to build LEDs are smaller than what is used in IC manufacturing. The performance/characteristics of the device are very sensitive to minute thingies in the atomic structure of the device… much more so than a silicon IC. This makes the manufacturing processes harder to control and harder to get consistent devices.

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Kloepper Knife Works wrote:
I've been in contact with a company to buy 219C's. I'll probably be ordering them tomorrow, with extras to sell.

I thought I'd read somewhere here that they weren't going to be manufactured.

 

djozz quotes, "it came with chinese lettering that is chinese to me".

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Old-Lumens. Highly admired and cherished member of Budget Light Forum. 11.5.2011 - 20.12.16. RIP.

 

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MRsDNF wrote:

Kloepper Knife Works wrote:
I've been in contact with a company to buy 219C's. I'll probably be ordering them tomorrow, with extras to sell.

I thought I'd read somewhere here that they weren't going to be manufactured.

DBcustom had spoken to a Nichia representative who told him that the 90+ versions were not going to be produced, other CRI's like obviousky the 83CRI one of the OP, are (somewhere) on the market. Apart from Lumitronics, they are at Ledrise now (also Germany, same types as Lumitronics has).

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Kloepper Knife Works wrote:
I’ve been in contact with a company to buy 219C’s. I’ll probably be ordering them tomorrow, with extras to sell.

The R8000 (Ra 80min) version? Tint? Any chance it’s R9050 (Ra 90, R9 50) instead? Love

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