Nichia 219C, testing a 5000K 83CRI emitter, comparing with a XP-G2 S4 2B and other leds

345 posts / 0 new
Last post
UliBär
UliBär's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 13 hours ago
Joined: 05/22/2013 - 16:08
Posts: 389
Location: N52° 16' 9.444" E10° 31' 26.105"

MEM wrote:
(…)
After a de-dome, untouched by tools/razer, a full dome lies at the glass bottom:
(…)
That looks like the perfect way to dedome Nichias.
Would you be so kind and tell what kind of solvent you used?
Some kind of nail polish remover, acetone or simply gas?

Aloha, Uli

Kloepper Knife Works
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 6 months ago
Joined: 12/07/2014 - 21:28
Posts: 1405
Location: Lincoln, NE

Djozz, how’s the tint after the dedome? Have you had a chance to check it through both plain and coated lenses?

djozz
djozz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 31 min 55 sec ago
Joined: 09/07/2012 - 17:04
Posts: 15953
Location: Amsterdam

 

Kloepper Knife Works wrote:
Djozz, how's the tint after the dedome? Have you had a chance to check it through both plain and coated lenses?

I have not seen it through a coated lens, and there's many types and quality of coated lenses around, so one would not tell much. 

This dedome might not be typical: a thin mess of silicone leftover on the die, the sides with the white stuff cut away.

This will be a subjective description as I have no way to measure tint and CRI apart from estimation with my own (trained) eyes.

That said, I compared the light to a (newest version) Oslon Square 4000K 92CRI that I have in a flashlight with similar beam, and the colour temperatures are comparable (so ~4000K), the tint of the dedomed 219C is more a clean white, which looks more rosy compared to the Oslon which is slightly green, it reproduces all colours really well, just in the saturation of bright reds the Oslon is a bit better despite the greenish appearance of the tint (but as expected from its high CRI).

 

Kloepper Knife Works
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 6 months ago
Joined: 12/07/2014 - 21:28
Posts: 1405
Location: Lincoln, NE
djozz wrote:

 

Kloepper Knife Works wrote:
Djozz, how’s the tint after the dedome? Have you had a chance to check it through both plain and coated lenses?

I have not seen it through a coated lens, and there’s many types and quality of coated lenses around, so one would not tell much. 

This dedome might not be typical: a thin mess of silicone leftover on the die, the sides with the white stuff cut away.

This will be a subjective description as I have no way to measure tint and CRI apart from estimation with my own (trained) eyes.

That said, I compared the light to a (newest version) Oslon Square 4000K 92CRI that I have in a flashlight with similar beam, and the colour temperatures are comparable (so ~4000K), the tint of the dedomed 219C is more a clean white, which looks more rosy compared to the Oslon which is slightly green, it reproduces all colours really well, just in the saturation of bright reds the Oslon is a bit better despite the greenish appearance of the tint (but as expected from its high CRI).

 

Please don’t take this the wrong way, but holy moly that’s an ugly dedome. It looks like chemical dedoming is going to be the way to go with these. That or slice and polish.

Halo...
Halo...'s picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 2 months ago
Joined: 12/15/2011 - 02:39
Posts: 3304
Location: Halo island
Big Smile I think it’s a pretty attractive, ugly dedome. Experimenting is the way we learn!
djozz
djozz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 31 min 55 sec ago
Joined: 09/07/2012 - 17:04
Posts: 15953
Location: Amsterdam

LOL, I agree on the ugly dedoming procedure and looks. I actually made a video of this dedome, the idea was to do the dedoming procedure entirely while the led was on the heatblock that I slided under my stereo microscope for good vision, the block temperature was just under solder melt temperature. It did not make the dome stick less wel to the die/substrate unfortunately. After what you see in the video I cut away the sides of the silicon and the white stuff.

So the idea did not work out, but this ugly dedomed led did the job anyway: noticable tint shift, improved throw, draws more than 5A from an Efest 16340, with 800 initial lumen OTF, that is close to 1000 ledlumen. I love the tint.

ImA4Wheelr
Offline
Last seen: 4 days 18 hours ago
Joined: 02/03/2013 - 14:51
Posts: 7915
Location: SC

Thank you for all these dedome method attempts djozz!  Great info.

As one that sees beauty in functionality, that latest one pictured above . . . oh, who am I trying to kid.  It may not be pretty, but it's getting the job done and that is a truly redeeming value for me.

Would like to know what solvents MEM is using.

Fritz t. Cat
Fritz t. Cat's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: 05/07/2013 - 00:33
Posts: 2535
Location: Si Valley

Dedoming increases the action of the phosphor, so it makes the tint warmer. That might increase the CRI.
The optics matters because the light re-emitted at longer wave length from the phosphor goes in all directions, so it comes out at wider angles than the blue band directly from the die. So zoomies have cooler spots than reflector lights do.
I have not been able to observe CRI. I don’t remember the color bin, but I have a neutral white Cree LED with about the same tint as my Nichia. Comparing the two shined on flowers and colored pens, I can’t see any difference. Using a camera and Gimp, would be more sensitive, but not necessarily meaningful because it would depend on the camera’s color response not on anyone’s eyes.

Flashlight designers should look at lighthouses and pottery.
这些谁设计的手电筒应该看灯塔,以及在陶器。

DB Custom
DB Custom's picture
Offline
Last seen: 9 hours 45 min ago
Joined: 01/13/2013 - 22:28
Posts: 20324
Location: Heart of Texas

That’s where a GretagMacbeth Color Checker Chart would come into play. Wink

I personally find the whole argument confusing. Different camera sensors pick up colors differently, the processor handles the colors differently, the screen shows colors differently, as do printers. Each and every person’s eyes are slightly different, like fingerprints. So if there truly is no standard, why do we get so hung up on it?

I go to great lengths to make sure wedding pictures are perfect. I have a Dell Pro monitor with a Adobe RGB gamut, I use a colorimeter to ensure the computer graphics card is handling the signals to the monitor correctly, I color process each and every picture to the best of my ability. Then the couple looks at their pictures on an iphone. Why do I bother?

To whit, where do we use flashlights that color is so important and how many of us actually have eyes that can tell the difference? What does it pay? ?

Striving for perfection, I know, and it’s a brutal mistress…

Fritz t. Cat
Fritz t. Cat's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: 05/07/2013 - 00:33
Posts: 2535
Location: Si Valley

That sounds right to me.
Since there is usually a big dip between royal blue and green, some blue things should look like a wrong hue, but I haven’t found an example.
I am looking up GretagMacbeth Color Checker Chart.

Flashlight designers should look at lighthouses and pottery.
这些谁设计的手电筒应该看灯塔,以及在陶器。

MEM
MEM's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 1 month ago
Joined: 03/18/2015 - 00:51
Posts: 294
Location: Amongst Cornfields, Illinois, USA

If you strictly dismiss the idea that color data is important, and that because our eyes are different we shouldn’t pursue it further, then it could be extended to say that we also shouldn’t care about high-CRI LEDs, lens coatings, copper cooling, and new battery technologies.

Some put hard work into making wedding photos look the best they can using the CIE standards, others choose their own areas to apply the CIE standards. I can completely see ones side of the argument. Trust me, (over)complication can be a b!tch. But the very thing we as humans do, is learn to innovate, experiment, and pursue things many have said we couldn’t do—doing it in our own garages now. Now, this isn’t a “mission to the moon” speech by JFK to push a country towards inspiration (here goes MEM you are saying by now Smile ). The parallelism involved can be ironic at times though, and the lengths some of us go to, to get something right. Even if it is for the pure satisfaction of new accomplishment; I would rather learn how to innovate a design with purpose than turn my head with frustration.

We say “eyes” so many times, so often…his eyes, her eyes, my eyes. YES! The eyes are the answer. A very large amount of stuff we deal with is based on our eyes. Not a cat’s or dog’s, but human eyes. The film industry, your monitors, TVs, camera/video hardware, printers/scanners, dare I mention LEDs? Wink As time moves forward, we approach a unification of standards, which is why we have standards like CIE, and tint binning to begin with. LEDs are one of the most important little devices to adhere to those standards, or not adhere at times. Our eyes can be different. From what I have found through use of lasers at far extremes of our vision spectrum and using simple questions/answers to describe what one sees, it amazes me how close our eyes really are, though. Monitors to cameras, yes they have variance which is well known. But even that iPhone screen is approaching the same standards, and one day such devices will nearly all duplicate one another in look. (Laser television, anyone? It is coming.)

We talk about it all just as much. Saying how one likes this tint or that tint, a high-CRI version of this or that LED. I’m simply suggesting we figure out that we know what we are doing when we do it. With color/tint/CRI and general wavelength knowledge, comes other knowledge to improve other things. I.E., Focus, de-doming, and intensity itself—the big one.

I would like to do a write-up on the forum in the near future to help some understand why lenses can work far better than reflectors in many situations, and how they can influence performance in combination with other optic types. Even though some shrug at the idea of lenses, the LED is a directional light source. It is not omni directional. Lenses are best used with directional light sources. Notice how the industry is shifting with this idea as time moves forward.

I’ll get to a better point for this CRI thing.

My idea with RAW data is this. A JPEG is worthless as far as maintaining data consistency, we know that much—it’s a compressed file format. Compressed file formats are blended, encoded, processed, and spit out as a representation that’s “sufficient” for use, while intended primarily for saving memory space. If I think to myself, “What is the best way I can capture and know the actual colors that are emitted?” The answer to that would be by use of a reference spectrometer. I stated before in another thread that when I had looked into a tested unit with a high wavelength-sensor count spanning the entire visible region, it was roughly $8,500USD, and then some. I put a tack in that idea. Smile Though, it sure would not hurt for a forum like this to have someone with access to one. That information could be very valuable. Anyways. That is probably not going to happen. So I thought about what I had mentioned using a very big fresnel lens. Sensors and cameras do vary, but the high-end stuff has less variance, and is why such things like RAW output is common on higher grade camera types. They can reproduce a standard within a fairly accurate measurement range. A camera sensor is the most accurate sensor type to likely be found in your own homes. Since they too are based on CIE standards, that flow right into photo programs based on the same standards, it started to make sense. There is likely a combination of parts found in some of our homes which can be used to identify color/tint/CRI. If a baseline is found, as usual, comparison can begin to be made. What is ironic about this, is that we are dismissing Nikon/Canon/Sony image sensors in front of us, and ordering lux meters from China with $1 sensors inside them to obtain measurement, that is supposed to be based on a CIE standard. Wink Now you can start to see why I am trying to convey a message here.

I am going to try developing a strategy to do this properly with more time. I know that a good chunk of obtaining the correct data is not exceeding the sensor’s range. If image intensity is in the correct region, the sensors can compute more accurately. It may involve a filter, or more. But the net result of a setup might just prove to be more useful than previously thought, since intensity itself as measured is driven by CIE spectrum.

I recently witnessed how much impact an aspheric-achromat had on tint, it is simply amazing. Coated lens #1 asphere has lower tint, because it appears to focus best where it ends up satisfying the eye for intensity and sharpness, while some blue is lost from the projection (we typically see this as a blue-purple halo or outline around the LED image projection which is lost light out of collimation [aberration]). Coated lens #2 aspheric-achromat makes the same image, without throwing out so much blue, no blue halo, and a whiter, higher-K projection is made from the same LED at the same distance from the LED. I do know why this is happening, it is simply focal-length span between red and blue being greatly reduced in an achromat—it is just that I finally obtained an 85mm aspheric-achromat to do it with. Contrast of projection grows greatly, too. More rays of light stay in the same image, meaning intensity of that image is greater and packed with more photons available from the source. More lumens come back that get lost in a de-dome+basic asphere lens configuration due to the aberration losses.

I’ll come back and talk about the de-domes, too. One asked what solvent I’m using, and I have to dig up the MSDS to be sure about one part of it at least. The other part, simple, you must buy it at stations located everywhere. Smile I’m going to run another Nichia through, setup in a time-lapse macro arrangement for a video like I’ve been doing. I had a good one of an XM-L2 I just did, and I deleted it because the thumbnail was gray while I was making drive space, and usually the gray ones are blips where I activated the IP camera briefly to generate a new video. In this case it was the entire video. Doh.

I like bright lights, and I cannot lie.

ECHO
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: 01/12/2015 - 11:16
Posts: 47
Location: Denver, CO

Anybody get/use one of Cutter’s 4000K 83CRI D280 219C’s on a 20mm notigon yet (here)? Curious if it’s really a D280 like Djozz’s 5000K one was. Seems like a good deal if shipping doesn’t kill ya.

djozz
djozz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 31 min 55 sec ago
Joined: 09/07/2012 - 17:04
Posts: 15953
Location: Amsterdam

ECHO wrote:
Anybody get/use one of Cutter's 4000K 83CRI D280 219C's on a 20mm notigon yet ("here":http://www.cutter.com.au/proddetail.php?prod=cut2733)? Curious if it's really a D280 like Djozz's 5000K one was. Seems like a good deal if shipping doesn't kill ya.

The 4000K version would be my favourite, and Cutters price is good on them, but indeed shipping kills it.

ECHO
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: 01/12/2015 - 11:16
Posts: 47
Location: Denver, CO
djozz wrote:

The 4000K version would be my favourite, and Cutters price is good on them, but indeed shipping kills it.

Well from where I’m sitting, it looks like ordering 30 of them gets free shipping to the USA, and with the BLF discount works out to $91.16 USD or $3.04/each at the present AUD to USD conversion. That sounds like it’s screaming for a group buy, yeah?

edit: AUD to USD conversion already slipped more, so it keeps getting cheaper…

DavidEF
DavidEF's picture
Offline
Last seen: 9 hours 49 min ago
Joined: 06/05/2014 - 06:00
Posts: 7671
Location: Salisbury, North Carolina, USA
ECHO wrote:
djozz wrote:

The 4000K version would be my favourite, and Cutters price is good on them, but indeed shipping kills it.

Well from where I’m sitting, it looks like ordering 30 of them gets free shipping to the USA, and with the BLF discount works out to $91.16 USD or $3.04/each at the present AUD to USD conversion. That sounds like it’s screaming for a group buy, yeah?

edit: AUD to USD conversion already slipped more, so it keeps getting cheaper…


Go ahead and start the group buy. You won’t have to beg anyone to join. :bigsmile:

The Cycle of Goodness: “No one prospers without rendering benefit to others”
- The YKK Philosophy

SciFiFreak
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 6 days ago
Joined: 02/11/2015 - 21:43
Posts: 108
Location: Boise
DavidEF wrote:
Go ahead and start the group buy. You won’t have to beg anyone to join. :bigsmile:

I’ve been waiting for these since this thread started so I would gladly pay a small markup to cover time and materials to reship some my way.

ECHO
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: 01/12/2015 - 11:16
Posts: 47
Location: Denver, CO

You know, for those in the USA I’m not sure a group buy even makes sense really. The Australian Post shipping option to Colorado from Cutter is only $14.10 AUD which works out to $9.92 USD. Given that a priority flat rate envelope is $5.75 USD does it even make sense to try a group buy? If you get 10, that means they’re $4.03 USD/each shipped, and if you get 3 they’re $6.34 USD/each shipped. That’s really not bad at all.

SciFiFreak
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 6 days ago
Joined: 02/11/2015 - 21:43
Posts: 108
Location: Boise

That’s interesting. I’ll have to recheck the shipping options because it defaulted to $25 shipping when I looked.

Kloepper Knife Works
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 6 months ago
Joined: 12/07/2014 - 21:28
Posts: 1405
Location: Lincoln, NE

I’ll have bare 5000k 219C’s available soon(this week hopefully). I’ll be able to ship them in the USA for about $5 each. I’ll have about 40-50 available.

ECHO
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: 01/12/2015 - 11:16
Posts: 47
Location: Denver, CO
SciFiFreak wrote:
That’s interesting. I’ll have to recheck the shipping options because it defaulted to $25 shipping when I looked.

Yeah, you’ve got to click on that and select “Compare rates: Australia Post” instead, and remember that what you’re seeing dollar figure wise is in AUD not USD. There’s a small handling charge too (AUD dollar or two), and PayPal or your credit card may charge you a small fee for converting currencies. Just keep all that in mind.

welight
welight's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 6 days ago
Joined: 11/23/2013 - 17:42
Posts: 169
Location: Melbourne

ECHO wrote:
You know, for those in the USA I'm not sure a group buy even makes sense really. The Australian Post shipping option to Colorado from Cutter is only $14.10 AUD which works out to $9.92 USD. Given that a priority flat rate envelope is $5.75 USD does it even make sense to try a group buy? If you get 10, that means they're $4.03 USD/each shipped, and if you get 3 they're $6.34 USD/each shipped. That's really not bad at all.

and god looked down upon the frugal ones and said at last you have truly found the lightInnocent

Cutter Electronics Pty Ltd
Web: www.cutter.com.au

Kloepper Knife Works
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 6 months ago
Joined: 12/07/2014 - 21:28
Posts: 1405
Location: Lincoln, NE

I’ve posted some Nichia NVSW219C 5000k LED’s for sale. $5 each for less than 5, and $4.50 each for 5+, includes shipping.

ECHO
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: 01/12/2015 - 11:16
Posts: 47
Location: Denver, CO
welight wrote:

and god looked down upon the frugal ones and said at last you have truly found the lightInnocent

Hell welight, I don’t know what else you could do to get people to buy those, it’s a screaming deal (particularly if you’re in the USA) buy it only looks like three after me have been sold?!?!? It’s not like we can get those 4000k 83CRI D280 ones anywhere else…

welight
welight's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 6 days ago
Joined: 11/23/2013 - 17:42
Posts: 169
Location: Melbourne

ECHO wrote:
welight wrote:

and god looked down upon the frugal ones and said at last you have truly found the lightInnocent

Hell welight, I don't know what else you could do to get people to buy those, it's a screaming deal (particularly if you're in the USA) buy it only looks like three after me have been sold?!?!? It's not like we can get those 4000k 83CRI D280 ones anywhere else...

Appreciate your support. My comment was a general one in that most people trying to buy stuff from us have a MAJOR issue with our freight cost. it was just nice to see it explained that while we are not free shipping like the chinese vendors, we are not over the top expensive if you choose the right ship option

Cheers

Mark

Cutter Electronics Pty Ltd
Web: www.cutter.com.au

Kloepper Knife Works
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 6 months ago
Joined: 12/07/2014 - 21:28
Posts: 1405
Location: Lincoln, NE

The first decent dedome of a 219C.

pilotdog68
pilotdog68's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Joined: 05/30/2013 - 23:31
Posts: 6420
Location: Held against my will in IOWA, USA

Looks kinda similar to Djozz dedome Wink

Is this with MEM’s method?

I wonder if the uneven surface will cause artifacts? maybe some 1500grit is in order

My Favorite Modded Lights: X6R, S8 , X2R , M6, SP03

Major Projects:  Illuminated Tailcap, TripleDown/TripleStack Driver

KawiBoy1428
KawiBoy1428's picture
Offline
Last seen: 43 min 34 sec ago
Joined: 04/11/2014 - 18:05
Posts: 3825
Location: The Motor City

Maybe a close shave and polish might be a better option? Smile

KB1428 “Live Life WOT

Jubeldum
Jubeldum's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 8 months ago
Joined: 11/02/2014 - 09:20
Posts: 2057
Location: Michigan
KawiBoy1428 wrote:
Maybe a close shave and polish might be a better option? Smile

MT-G2 dedome & polish method

Fritz t. Cat
Fritz t. Cat's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: 05/07/2013 - 00:33
Posts: 2535
Location: Si Valley
welight wrote:
and god looked down upon the frugal ones and said at last you have truly found the lightInnocent

ECHO wrote:
Yeah, you’ve got to click on that and select “Compare rates: Australia Post” instead, and remember that what you’re seeing dollar figure wise is in AUD not USD. There’s a small handling charge too (AUD dollar or two), and PayPal or your credit card may charge you a small fee for converting currencies. Just keep all that in mind.

Ok, I’ll order some when I can afford it. Smile

Flashlight designers should look at lighthouses and pottery.
这些谁设计的手电筒应该看灯塔,以及在陶器。

Kloepper Knife Works
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 6 months ago
Joined: 12/07/2014 - 21:28
Posts: 1405
Location: Lincoln, NE

Here’s a beamshot comparing the dedomed Nichia NVSW219C @ 5.7A vs a dedomed XP-G2 S4 2B running direct drive. Both are focused for highest lux in 1504’s. I got a reading of 326kcd from the dedomed Nichia vs 463kcd for the XP-G2. The colors are fairly accurate. The Nichia is on the left.

It feels like there’s more to be had out of this LED, perhaps more dedoming attempts are due.

Pages