Nichia 219C, testing a 5000K 83CRI emitter, comparing with a XP-G2 S4 2B and other leds

345 posts / 0 new
Last post
DB Custom
DB Custom's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 hours 28 min ago
Joined: 01/13/2013 - 22:28
Posts: 20324
Location: Heart of Texas

There wouldn’t be continuity on any of the solder pads, as those are isolated by the masking… by necessity of course.

Try placing your probe right at the base of the emitter where it solders to the star, usually there’s a bit of a shine right there where the solder is. Or you can simply press the probe through the mask onto the trace coming away from the thermal pad. (scratch it slightly, in other words, to get contact through the masking to the trace underneath.)

I’d put it on a hot plate and pull the emitter, easy enough then to find out if it’s DTP or not.

Look at the information from SinkPAD on their DTP Al boards compared to the DTP Cu boards, the copper ones are much more efficient. The Al ones are fine if you’re not pushing to max levels, but the copper ones can’t be beat up on the top end.

welight
welight's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 3 days ago
Joined: 11/23/2013 - 17:42
Posts: 169
Location: Melbourne

Guys

The Alum boards are not DTP, we have Tpad due in 3 weeks in XP footprint but these are not and were shipped by mistake, so we will rectify this, if you order on Noctigan boards, thats what you will get

I am currently in the UK so my answers may be delayed

Cheers

Mark

Cutter Electronics Pty Ltd
Web: www.cutter.com.au

Tom E
Tom E's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 50 min ago
Joined: 08/19/2012 - 08:23
Posts: 12333
Location: LI NY

Hi Mark - thanks for posting!

 Just to clarify for me and to be honest, the main thing is the pictures on your website for the 219C product show a LED on a Noctigon - I really didn't expect a Noctigon to come with it for that price - price was too low. I made a mistake in thinking it was a bare LED, not mounted - missed the note it was mounted on a 20mm star.

ImA4Wheelr
Offline
Last seen: 3 hours 17 min ago
Joined: 02/03/2013 - 14:51
Posts: 7916
Location: SC

Still waiting the hear back for Cutter or welight.  I trust that he will straighten this matter out, but the lack of response  is starting to get me concerned.

Rufusbduck
Rufusbduck's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 months 1 week ago
Joined: 04/04/2012 - 15:34
Posts: 10389
Location: Golden state

The HI versions just have a very thin flat layer of silicon over the die. I’ve wondered if instead of a complete dedome just use a centering disc as a jig to get an even thickness slice and make the cut submerged in an alcohol lubricant bath the make it as clean and smooth as possible.

Three Tanna leaves to give him life, nine to give him movement. But what if he eats the whole bag?

Scott

KawiBoy1428
KawiBoy1428's picture
Offline
Last seen: 55 min 37 sec ago
Joined: 04/11/2014 - 18:05
Posts: 3829
Location: The Motor City

Out of all the emitter’s I have shaved down, the 219c was the hardest, literally, it need’s a Rockwell hardness number! But after initially shaving the biggest part of the top off I pressed down harder on the washer I was using and shaved almost a perfect surface and a less than paper thin shave off it that came out with just light wet sanding and then a toothpaste polishing! I have tried synthetic Mobil 1 oil to liquid soap as lubricants, it helps out, especially on the second cut or shave! You got to keep the angle of the blade slightly raised towards the rear to act as a scissor action against the washer or guide, and the tighter the I.D. to dome O.D. the better, less pressure pushing on the dome, slow and easy on the cut, let the blade do the work. I’m sure there are other way’s and of course Better way’s, but this works for me, and I do it a lot, so take it for what it’s worth, .0002cents! :bigsmile:

KB1428 “Live Life WOT

welight
welight's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 3 days ago
Joined: 11/23/2013 - 17:42
Posts: 169
Location: Melbourne

ImA4Wheelr wrote:

Still waiting the hear back for Cutter or welight.  I trust that he will straighten this matter out, but the lack of response  is starting to get me concerned.

Heading back home tomorrow so will resolve this as soon as I land

Cheers

Mark

Cutter Electronics Pty Ltd
Web: www.cutter.com.au

djozz
djozz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 46 min 33 sec ago
Joined: 09/07/2012 - 17:04
Posts: 15987
Location: Amsterdam

KawiBoy1428 wrote:
Out of all the emitter's I have shaved down, the 219c was the hardest, literally, it need's a Rockwell hardness number! But after initially shaving the biggest part of the top off I pressed down harder on the washer I was using and shaved almost a perfect surface and a less than paper thin shave off it that came out with just light wet sanding and then a toothpaste polishing! I have tried synthetic Mobil 1 oil to liquid soap as lubricants, it helps out, especially on the second cut or shave! You got to keep the angle of the blade slightly raised towards the rear to act as a scissor action against the washer or guide, and the tighter the I.D. to dome O.D. the better, less pressure pushing on the dome, slow and easy on the cut, let the blade do the work. I'm sure there are other way's and of course Better way's, but this works for me, and I do it a lot, so take it for what it's worth, .0002cents! :bigsmile:

That sounds like a very thorough manual, thanks, I will use this method Smile

Picture of the result?

garrybunk
garrybunk's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 5 hours ago
Joined: 10/31/2011 - 09:25
Posts: 6049
Location: Johnstown, PA

Ah, while I was sleeping a new emitter came out that I almost missed (thanks ImA for the alert)!  Thanks djozz for your testing!  Might have to order a couple to sit on my workbench for months and months with no use . . . ahem, I mean to mod some lights with. 

-Garry

My Bike Lights Thread, Optics (TIR) Comparison Beamshots, Diffusion Techniques


NOTE: Moving my photos from PhotoBucket to Flickr. PM me or post in the thread if you can’t see my images and need me to fix or send a gallery link. PhotoBucket images should remain visible until November 2018.
djozz
djozz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 46 min 33 sec ago
Joined: 09/07/2012 - 17:04
Posts: 15987
Location: Amsterdam

garrybunk wrote:

Ah, while I was sleeping a new emitter came out that I almost missed (thanks ImA for the alert)!  Thanks djozz for your testing!  Might have to order a couple to sit on my workbench for months and months with no use . . . ahem, I mean to mod some lights with. 

-Garry

If your hobby time is limited, the choice is: get some emitters and let them sit there or keep the workbench empty and hope for Nichia to come up in the coming months with a 90CRI version after all Smile

(although they claim not to work on that)

djozz
djozz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 46 min 33 sec ago
Joined: 09/07/2012 - 17:04
Posts: 15987
Location: Amsterdam

djozz wrote:

KawiBoy1428 wrote:
Out of all the emitter's I have shaved down, the 219c was the hardest, literally, it need's a Rockwell hardness number! But after initially shaving the biggest part of the top off I pressed down harder on the washer I was using and shaved almost a perfect surface and a less than paper thin shave off it that came out with just light wet sanding and then a toothpaste polishing! I have tried synthetic Mobil 1 oil to liquid soap as lubricants, it helps out, especially on the second cut or shave! You got to keep the angle of the blade slightly raised towards the rear to act as a scissor action against the washer or guide, and the tighter the I.D. to dome O.D. the better, less pressure pushing on the dome, slow and easy on the cut, let the blade do the work. I'm sure there are other way's and of course Better way's, but this works for me, and I do it a lot, so take it for what it's worth, .0002cents! :bigsmile:

That sounds like a very thorough manual, thanks, I will use this method Smile

Picture of the result?

Kawiboy emailed some pictures of his shaved XHP70 to me for posting because his computer was not able to post them on BLF, here they are 4 of them Smile :

1:

2:

3:

4:

pilotdog68
pilotdog68's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 hours 16 min ago
Joined: 05/30/2013 - 23:31
Posts: 6420
Location: Held against my will in IOWA, USA

I know a few people ordered the 4000k from Cutter. If any of you have extras, I’m looking to buy 2-3. If I needed more, I’d just buy from Cutter myself, but for 2 the shipping isn’t quite worth it to me.

Solved by a helpful Aussie

My Favorite Modded Lights: X6R, S8 , X2R , M6, SP03

Major Projects:  Illuminated Tailcap, TripleDown/TripleStack Driver

WhitedragonBC
WhitedragonBC's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 16 hours ago
Joined: 05/17/2014 - 00:42
Posts: 190
Location: California

For an X6 triple I think I might do a tint mix with 2 4000k and 1 5000k.

Nicolaas
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 3 days ago
Joined: 10/31/2012 - 15:38
Posts: 456
Location: Netherlands

Ola Djozz,

Why do I not see a donuthole? Is that because of the shaved dome or am I missing something here?
Also, is it place in a Fenix TK61?

Schöne Grüße, Wink
Nico

testedandbaked
testedandbaked's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 09/04/2015 - 07:40
Posts: 58
Location: Australia

Attempted acetone dedome of a 4000k 219C, dome became crumbly (not soft at all) after 90 minutes in acetone. Most of the dome came off very easily, leaving a few bits stuck on the die. There is phosphor under the white stuff, which was removed to reveal a gold-plated substrate. The remaining dome was carefully cut away using a razor blade in successive slices, leading to a good looking result.

Reflector and beamshot (underexposed to show tint)


Hmm, that slicing may have been a little overzealeous especially near the edges of the die… I wonder what the CRI is now…

djozz
djozz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 46 min 33 sec ago
Joined: 09/07/2012 - 17:04
Posts: 15987
Location: Amsterdam

Nicolaas wrote:
Ola Djozz, Why do I not see a donuthole? Is that because of the shaved dome or am I missing something here? Also, is it place in a Fenix TK61? Schöne Grüße, Wink Nico

Ha Nico, those pictures were from KawiBoy1428, I posted them for him. So I can not answer your questions Sad

DB Custom
DB Custom's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 hours 28 min ago
Joined: 01/13/2013 - 22:28
Posts: 20324
Location: Heart of Texas

testedandbaked, looks like that one is now making UltraViolet light that could be damaging… the blue/purple is where too much phosphor came off. You can even see it in the beamshot. Be careful with that one!

Fritz t. Cat
Fritz t. Cat's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 05/07/2013 - 00:33
Posts: 2535
Location: Si Valley

So maybe the Nichia junctions produce a shorter wave length than the Crees do and that is how they are able to get higher CRI?

Flashlight designers should look at lighthouses and pottery.
这些谁设计的手电筒应该看灯塔,以及在陶器。

testedandbaked
testedandbaked's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 09/04/2015 - 07:40
Posts: 58
Location: Australia

I believe the wavelength is roughly (no instruments for quantification sorry!) 420-440nm, perhaps a touch more blue than shown by the photos. Definitely not UV, as it’s more blue than a 405nm bluray laser.

I’ve since switched LEDs, this time dedomed by a high razor shave then sanding down with 360->600->1000->2000 grade sandpaper, turned out the dome sands well with a light touch. Minimal some tint shift with this method, about 4000k to 3500k.

DB Custom
DB Custom's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 hours 28 min ago
Joined: 01/13/2013 - 22:28
Posts: 20324
Location: Heart of Texas

Ah, the lovely Nichia 219C…

1. 0.01A for 00.45 lumens
2. 0.03A for 12.94
3. 0.16A for 56
4. 0.56A for 202.52
5. 2.60A for 814.2
6. 7.25A for 1804.35
7. 17.33A for 3301.65

This is a small Convoy M2, with a 19mm thick copper spacer/heat sink I made this morning and a quad mcpcb with 4 of these 219C’s. :bigsmile: I kept the lid on it by using 22ga wires, good thing too huh? Yeah yeah yeah, not like me to limit one I know, but I’ve seen 4 of these draw over 21 amp and didn’t want that in this smaller light, large Cu sink or no.

Cell used for the above numbers is an LG HE2 fresh off the charger. Don’t really want to know what a couple of the cells with more potential might do here…

WhitedragonBC
WhitedragonBC's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 16 hours ago
Joined: 05/17/2014 - 00:42
Posts: 190
Location: California

I’m going to be ordering some 4000k from Cutter soon. Thinking about getting some extras to qualify for free shipping and reselling them. How much interest is there at $6 per LED?

testedandbaked
testedandbaked's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 09/04/2015 - 07:40
Posts: 58
Location: Australia

Wow, I don’t think any single die Cree has survived 17A+ before! Maybe helped by the 219C’s lack of bond wires? Thanks for the data! Did the LED blue-shift by any chance at those insane currents?

EDIT: oops, realised you were talking about a quad setup!

DB Custom
DB Custom's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 hours 28 min ago
Joined: 01/13/2013 - 22:28
Posts: 20324
Location: Heart of Texas

testedandbaked, it was 4 of em…read Quad… I built a Quad with Carclo optics in a Convoy M2.

As such, a Quad with Cree’s won’t draw 17A even with 18ga leads. I knew my Ti X6 did 21.3Amps on the 20ga leads so I tried to limit this one a bit with smaller wire.

Single Cell, only one 18650, I’ll probably test an LG HE4 and Samsung 30Q as well as the Efest 35A, but I used the LG HE-2 for this one initially.

Point being, the lower Vf of these Nichia’s can lead to some crazy high current being drawn, so be careful what you build with them!

Edit: Wink

will34
will34's picture
Offline
Last seen: 39 min 40 sec ago
Joined: 12/18/2012 - 00:12
Posts: 3621

Interesting test Dale, but I’m curious as Djozz tested the 219C to produce over 1000 lm at 4A, but you’re only getting 3300 lm? it is because of the loss with the carclo optic?

djozz
djozz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 46 min 33 sec ago
Joined: 09/07/2012 - 17:04
Posts: 15987
Location: Amsterdam

will34 wrote:
Interesting test Dale, but I'm curious as Djozz tested the 219C to produce over 1000 lm at 4A, but you're only getting 3300 lm? it is because of the loss with the carclo optic?

You easily get this loss in a flashlight. 17A is 4.25A/emitter, in djozz-lumen 1125lm/emitter. Out-the-front Dale measured 825lm/emitter, that is 27% less. This is not bad. The factors involved are optics loss, heat loss, and differences between Dale's lumen and my lumen (the variation between the personal 'lumens' appears significant, we all try the best we can and it can still easily differ by 20%)

DB Custom
DB Custom's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 hours 28 min ago
Joined: 01/13/2013 - 22:28
Posts: 20324
Location: Heart of Texas

Like djozz says, there are variations between testing styles and equipment. I believe djozz bench tests while I test an actual flashlight, so it’ interesting to see what the emitters are capable of vs what we can expect in real time.

Also, on this light, the small TIR in the optics is going to be less efficient than a larger single TIR or reflector, just primarily due to the small size necessary. Remember, there are 4 TIR’s crammed into a 24mm diameter optic here. 4 of these 219C’s in a larger quad with bigger lens/optics would almost certainly yield a very different output.

Maybe I’ll put 4 of these into my SupFire M6 and see what they do with the larger reflectors in a modified soup can light? It’s doing around 5000 lumens now with XM-L2’s.

Edit: By the way, a freshly charged Samsung 30Q showed 17.86A for 3456.90 lumens. Wink

garrybunk
garrybunk's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 5 hours ago
Joined: 10/31/2011 - 09:25
Posts: 6049
Location: Johnstown, PA

These Nichias are a straight swap on an XP-G (2) emitter board, right? Just heat, remove XP-G (2), place Nichia, reheat to attach? 

I seem to remember some modification that needed done on the XP-G emitter boards for the previous Nichias (219B's?). 

-Garry

My Bike Lights Thread, Optics (TIR) Comparison Beamshots, Diffusion Techniques


NOTE: Moving my photos from PhotoBucket to Flickr. PM me or post in the thread if you can’t see my images and need me to fix or send a gallery link. PhotoBucket images should remain visible until November 2018.
testedandbaked
testedandbaked's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 09/04/2015 - 07:40
Posts: 58
Location: Australia

They are a straight swap. Just note that the board is a tiny bit thinner than the XPG2s, this usually doesn’t affect anything however.

Jubeldum
Jubeldum's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 8 months ago
Joined: 11/02/2014 - 09:20
Posts: 2057
Location: Michigan

I need to wait until I get new glasses so I can change the resister on a LD-2 to a 12 amp so I can use the triple That I bought from RMM.

Dale, how hot do those Nichias get?

DB Custom
DB Custom's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 hours 28 min ago
Joined: 01/13/2013 - 22:28
Posts: 20324
Location: Heart of Texas

Pushed hard, like in a triple or quad, they get VERY hot!

Pages