BLF Lantern Project: Possible SRK-Based BLF-Lantern future GB *UPDATES/May,23,2016 - Field-Test Successfull!

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djozz
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Im my opinion, despite all discussion, a lantern should have a downward facing light source, like DBSAR’s prototype. You can add a sideways pointing reflector on top of the Q8, but will then still need very heavy diffusing to prevent looking directly into the leds.

Lanterns should project light sideways and downward, and only little light should go upwards.

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DavidEF wrote:
What? Put the cells in 4S to charge? That’s the worst possible way to charge Li-Ion cells! Where did you get the idea that the charger circuit “would need the cells to be in 4S to work effectively”?

I said that it would be faster to charge in 4S, not better. The light would also work better in 4S.

It is very simple why, a USB type C connection can provide up to 100W of power but it can only do that at 20V out output. Thus a 4S would be about perfect at 16.8V.

In 5V mode any USB is limited to around 10 watts.

At 10W (aka, 1,8A) the cells will take about 10-12 hours to charge. Compared to around 2 hours at 100W

Charging in parallel is better long term for sure but it is also MUCH slower.

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Texas_Ace
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djozz wrote:
Im my opinion, despite all discussion, a lantern should have a downward facing light source, like DBSAR’s prototype. You can add a sideways pointing reflector on top of the Q8, but will then still need very heavy diffusing to prevent looking directly into the leds.

Lanterns should project light sideways and downward, and only little light should go upwards.

This is pretty easy to solve really, the bezel screw in point and the size of the lantern reflector could easily block any direct view on the LED’s.

Or worst case you simply turn the Q8 upside down, although that will make it top heavy.

You need the Q8 body to remotely handle the heat unless you plan to limit it to really low outputs.

The Second Amendment is in place in case the politicians ignore the others.

Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. -- Frederic Bastiat , French economist(1801-1850)

Texas Avenger Driver Series

My LED Test series - XP-L2 V5  - Nichia 219C 90+ CRILatticebright "XM-L"XHP35 & PWM efficiency - XHP50 - XP-L V5 - XM-L2 U2 - XP-G3 S5  - XP-L HI V2 - Oslon Square & direct comparison to Djozz tests - Nichia 319A - Nichia 219B 9080 CRI - Nichia 219C D320 - Nichia 229AT

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DavidEF
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Texas_Ace wrote:
DavidEF wrote:
What? Put the cells in 4S to charge? That’s the worst possible way to charge Li-Ion cells! Where did you get the idea that the charger circuit “would need the cells to be in 4S to work effectively”?

I said that it would be faster to charge in 4S, not better. The light would also work better in 4S.

It is very simple why, a USB type C connection can provide up to 100W of power but it can only do that at 20V out output. Thus a 4S would be about perfect at 16.8V.

In 5V mode any USB is limited to around 10 watts.

At 10W (aka, 1,8A) the cells will take about 10-12 hours to charge. Compared to around 2 hours at 100W

Charging in parallel is better long term for sure but it is also MUCH slower.


In order to safely charge a 4S arrangement, you’d need cell balancing, which means a “battery pack” is going to be the only way that makes sense. Randomly throwing in 4 cells and charging them in series is dangerous, and even more so when considering “Fast Charge” capability. Manufacturers can’t afford to leave such an important safety consideration for their customers to figure out. Parallel charging is fast enough, much simpler, and much safer. It isn’t likely anyone will ever find themselves needing a full charge on all 4 cells, and that in a short period of time. If the light needed to be used soon, an incomplete charge would likely suffice, with a full charge left for a more convenient time.

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I’m very interested in this project!

Would anybody else like to see this lantern with grey anodizing or some color such as blue or green? Maybe it’s just me, but I always find black to be an off-putting color for a lantern. Probably one of the least important aspects of this project, though!

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How do you like this colour?

http://budgetlightforum.com/comment/1139072#comment-1139072

NEW convoy sand/tan!

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Jesjes wrote:
How do you like this colour?

http://budgetlightforum.com/comment/1139072#comment-1139072

NEW convoy sand/tan!

looks good. Smile sort of like a pewter/titanium anodizing color.

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

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If the lantern gets onboard charging it should be possible to use while charging and to use it without any batteries in it. So it might be possible (depending on the cell config) to run it from a powerbank or something.

For the Q8 lantern thing, I would just go for a diffuser type of thing. Whenever I use a FL as a lantern I try to hang it up side down above my head, that way all light is projected downward and none is lost.

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Jesjes wrote:
How do you like this colour?
NEW convoy sand/tan!

I like it, it looks very elegant! And fits better into nature than black or silver.

dekozn wrote:
If the lantern gets onboard charging it should be possible to use while charging and to use it without any batteries in it.
So it might be possible (depending on the cell config) to run it from a powerbank or something.

Both points are a very good idea, that would make a lantern useful in very different kind of situations.
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I am interested

dekozn
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angerdan wrote:

dekozn wrote:
If the lantern gets onboard charging it should be possible to use while charging and to use it without any batteries in it.
So it might be possible (depending on the cell config) to run it from a powerbank or something.

Both points are a very good idea, that would make a lantern useful in very different kind of situations.

Yeah for sure. Thinking about it though, charging at around 3 to 4A (if 4cells are used in parallel) and running the lantern full throttle could cause for some serious heat building up. But since it’s it not a tube light I believe this can be avoided by way of design. Something that would not be possible with the Q8 for example.

Edit: Instead of using micro usb charging, charging like an olight or the way convoy does would definitely be a step up from al the other light using micro usb.

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dekozn wrote:
angerdan wrote:

dekozn wrote:
If the lantern gets onboard charging it should be possible to use while charging and to use it without any batteries in it.
So it might be possible (depending on the cell config) to run it from a powerbank or something.

Both points are a very good idea, that would make a lantern useful in very different kind of situations.

Yeah for sure. Thinking about it though, charging at around 3 to 4A (if 4cells are used in parallel) and running the lantern full throttle could cause for some serious heat building up. But since it’s it not a tube light I believe this can be avoided by way of design. Something that would not be possible with the Q8 for example.

Edit: Instead of using micro usb charging, charging like an olight or the way convoy does would definitely be a step up from al the other light using micro usb.

I have ran the Lantern prototype on maximun mode for 7 + hours continuous with no problems. as the LED emitter is located at the top, The lantern head is the heat-sink, meaning all the heat is kept away & rises up & away from the battery tube and driver areas.

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

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DavidEF wrote:
In order to safely charge a 4S arrangement, you’d need cell balancing, which means a “battery pack” is going to be the only way that makes sense. Randomly throwing in 4 cells and charging them in series is dangerous, and even more so when considering “Fast Charge” capability. Manufacturers can’t afford to leave such an important safety consideration for their customers to figure out. Parallel charging is fast enough, much simpler, and much safer. It isn’t likely anyone will ever find themselves needing a full charge on all 4 cells, and that in a short period of time. If the light needed to be used soon, an incomplete charge would likely suffice, with a full charge left for a more convenient time.

You mean like those hoverboards with no balance circuitry that were catching on fire?

angerdan
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dekozn wrote:
Instead of using micro usb charging, charging like an olight or the way convoy does would definitely be a step up from al the other light using micro usb.

It would be a nice looking feature, but microUSB has the practical aspect in the field use. Chance to find a common microUSB cable if one get lost is higer than getting an proprietary charge adapter.
For long-term use it could even be helpful to add an USB c-type plug (additionally to microUSB maybe).
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DBSAR wrote:

I have ran the Lantern prototype on maximun mode for 7 + hours continuous with no problems. as the LED emitter is located at the top, The lantern head is the heat-sink, meaning all the heat is kept away & rises up & away from the battery tube and driver areas.

I should read the whole threat Facepalm . but that’s great, so charging and running the light should pose no problem.

About usb plug charging. I still think there are better options, specially because it’s a lantern the designer(s) is/are less restricted with space. Maybe the charging cable could be stored secured in/on the lantern. And for long term usage I think it’s better to avoid ubs plugs in the lantern. Check the forum and see how many negative comments there are on usb charging. The convoy or olight way also allows for better water proofing then some silicone thingy over the usb input.
But before all this can be discussed it is needed to know the cell configuration. If it’s 4S or 2S2P usb charging is out of the question I believe.

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dekozn wrote:
DBSAR wrote:

I have ran the Lantern prototype on maximun mode for 7 + hours continuous with no problems. as the LED emitter is located at the top, The lantern head is the heat-sink, meaning all the heat is kept away & rises up & away from the battery tube and driver areas.

I should read the whole thread Facepalm . but that’s great, so charging and running the light should pose no problem.

About usb plug charging. I still think there are better options, specially because it’s a lantern the designer(s) is/are less restricted with space. Maybe the charging cable could be stored secured in/on the lantern. And for long term usage I think it’s better to avoid ubs plugs in the lantern. Check the forum and see how many negative comments there are on usb charging. The convoy or olight way also allows for better water proofing then some silicone thingy over the usb input.
But before all this can be discussed it is needed to know the cell configuration. If it’s 4S or 2S2P usb charging is out of the question I believe.

This prototype is 4P configuration, so charging the four cells is safe. I prefer 4P config as the lantern can be run on 1, 2, 3 or 4 cells, is safer, etc. I have tested a TP4056 1A USB charger on 4P 18650 cells and they charge no problem during the day. ( also charging the cells at 250ma each when in 4P series the cells don’t heat up, and last longer over time. A TP charger board can charge the light while its still running, (with light on medium or lower modes so the charger can output more power than is being drawn to both charge cells and power the driver, also that would basically run the light from the USB charger effectively, as once the cells reached full charge the charger would sort of “ float” charge the cells & run the lantern. meaning it can be run from a 12 volt USB adapter, wall USB adapter, etc.

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

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I don’t really understand. So if you run the light while charging, it still charges the cells at 1A AND runs the light. So it’s putting out like 2 or 3 Amps? Or is it drawing the current from the cells that are being charged?

I find 250mA really low takes like more than 12h to charge. Wouldn’t get away with 500mA ,don’t think it woud heat up the batteries that much but he charging board might get hotter?

Don’t know much about electronics but I think I’d rather see the cells disconnected (electronically) from the driver while charging and that the light is run straight from the input. That way the light is able to run without batteries in it. I don’t even know if that is possible at all but that’s what’s inside my head.

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DBSAR wrote:
This prototype is 4P configuration, so charging the four cells is safe. I prefer 4P config as the lantern can be run on 1, 2, 3 or 4 cells, is safer, etc. I have tested a TP4056 1A USB charger on 4P 18650 cells and they charge no problem during the day. ( also charging the cells at 250ma each when in 4P series the cells don’t heat up, and last longer over time. A TP charger board can charge the light while its still running, (with light on medium or lower modes so the charger can output more power than is being drawn to both charge cells and power the driver, also that would basically run the light from the USB charger effectively, as once the cells reached full charge the charger would sort of “ float” charge the cells & run the lantern. meaning it can be run from a 12 volt USB adapter, wall USB adapter, etc.

dekozn wrote:
I don’t really understand. So if you run the light while charging, it still charges the cells at 1A AND runs the light. So it’s putting out like 2 or 3 Amps? Or is it drawing the current from the cells that are being charged?

I find 250mA really low takes like more than 12h to charge. Wouldn’t get away with 500mA ,don’t think it woud heat up the batteries that much but he charging board might get hotter?

Don’t know much about electronics but I think I’d rather see the cells disconnected (electronically) from the driver while charging and that the light is run straight from the input. That way the light is able to run without batteries in it. I don’t even know if that is possible at all but that’s what’s inside my head.

I added bold to the important bit above. The charger is supplying 1 Amp to the batteries, split equally between the four batteries installed so they each get 250 ma. As long as the LED is drawing less than the charger is putting in (1 Amp in this case) the batteries are being charged. So assuming that nothing is lost to inefficiency, the formula is:

(I(charger) – I(LED)) / (# of batts) = I (battery)

Lazy-R-us

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Lazy-R-us wrote:
DBSAR wrote:
This prototype is 4P configuration, so charging the four cells is safe. I prefer 4P config as the lantern can be run on 1, 2, 3 or 4 cells, is safer, etc. I have tested a TP4056 1A USB charger on 4P 18650 cells and they charge no problem during the day. ( also charging the cells at 250ma each when in 4P series the cells don’t heat up, and last longer over time. A TP charger board can charge the light while its still running, (with light on medium or lower modes so the charger can output more power than is being drawn to both charge cells and power the driver, also that would basically run the light from the USB charger effectively, as once the cells reached full charge the charger would sort of “ float” charge the cells & run the lantern. meaning it can be run from a 12 volt USB adapter, wall USB adapter, etc.

dekozn wrote:
I don’t really understand. So if you run the light while charging, it still charges the cells at 1A AND runs the light. So it’s putting out like 2 or 3 Amps? Or is it drawing the current from the cells that are being charged?

I find 250mA really low takes like more than 12h to charge. Wouldn’t get away with 500mA ,don’t think it woud heat up the batteries that much but he charging board might get hotter?

Don’t know much about electronics but I think I’d rather see the cells disconnected (electronically) from the driver while charging and that the light is run straight from the input. That way the light is able to run without batteries in it. I don’t even know if that is possible at all but that’s what’s inside my head.

I added bold to the important bit above. The charger is supplying 1 Amp to the batteries, split equally between the four batteries installed so they each get 250 ma. As long as the LED is drawing less than the charger is putting in (1 Amp in this case) the batteries are being charged. So assuming that nothing is lost to inefficiency, the formula is:

(I(charger) – I(LED)) / (# of batts) = I (battery)

You got it. Right now the prototype is running a 2-7135 Q-Lite driver, meaning on high it draws 700mA. the TP4056 i tested still “trickle charged” the cells when running, but charged faster if the lantern is run on medium mode. (roughly 390mA from my tests on this prototype.

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

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dekozn wrote:
I don’t really understand. So if you run the light while charging, it still charges the cells at 1A AND runs the light. So it’s putting out like 2 or 3 Amps? Or is it drawing the current from the cells that are being charged?

I find 250mA really low takes like more than 12h to charge. Wouldn’t get away with 500mA ,don’t think it woud heat up the batteries that much but he charging board might get hotter?

Don’t know much about electronics but I think I’d rather see the cells disconnected (electronically) from the driver while charging and that the light is run straight from the input. That way the light is able to run without batteries in it. I don’t even know if that is possible at all but that’s what’s inside my head.

as mentioned to lazy-r-us, right now the prototype is running a 2-7135 Q-Lite driver, meaning on high-mode it draws 700mA. the TP4056 i tested still “trickle charged” the cells when running the lantern, but charged faster if the lantern is run on medium or low mode. (roughly 390mA from my tests on this prototype on medium-mode) If you run the batteries down to the point the driver low-voltage warning cuts-in then yes it takes a long time to recharge, but average use of 4 to 5 hours in 1 night don’t drain them down much at all, so they onyl need to be topped-up so to speak.

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

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Interested as well.

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Also interested, going to follow this post.

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Very interested, loving the progress!

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Interested, but also holding off committing until a price is mentioned.

(I did not see one but may have missed it in the pages of reading. )

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With the 2×7135 and TP4056 charger, this lantern sounds like it would be perfect for camping or long term use, plugging in to a solar panel to top off the cells during the day.

I’m not familiar with the SRK battery compartment setup, but just off hand, with the space of 4×18650, I imagine it wouldn’t be very difficult to rig a carrier for using 3xAA, (or maybe 4 or 5 in 3s2p?) or maybe 3C primaries for anyone not wanting to use Li-Ion?

Sounds great the way the prototype is configured; definitely can’t wait to try one out! Love

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waxing twilight wrote:
With the 2×7135 and TP4056 charger, this lantern sounds like it would be perfect for camping or long term use, plugging in to a solar panel to top off the cells during the day.

I’m not familiar with the SRK battery compartment setup, but just off hand, with the space of 4×18650, I imagine it wouldn’t be very difficult to rig a carrier for using 3xAA, (or maybe 4 or 5 in 3s2p?) or maybe 3C primaries for anyone not wanting to use Li-Ion?

Sounds great the way the prototype is configured; definitely can’t wait to try one out! Love


The battery compartment is quad-bored resulting in a cloverleaf cross-section. If you wanted to use a 3xAA carrier, you’d have to bore out the battery tube. Doing that would make the 18650 “slots” less stable. It would probably be impossible to hold 1,2, or 3 cells, meaning you’d always have to use 4× 18650. That’s not desirable. I don’t know if it’s possible to make a 4xAA carrier with a cloverleaf cross section. If you were able to get one of those made to fit in the 4× 18650 tube, that would be nice. But then our drivers would have to be made for higher voltage or risk burning up. If you want a drop-in solution (no need to change drivers) you could make it shaped like 4xAA cloverleaf but only hold 3xAA cells. That’s your best bet.

Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it. Do not count on them. Leave them alone.
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 I came across this thread after a while, reading the last post about slow charging with  4P battery config.

Wouldn't be possible to add another port or maybe even 1 port per battery and charge it with multiple microUSB inputs? maybe divided by diodes, so i you just have 1charger than good you charge slow, add another one and you charge double as fast, 1 charger per battery charges it 4 times faster. Many powerbanks nowadays have at least 2 ports of 2+ Amps capable so 4A will be feasible. Dunno about the circuitry tho.  Just brainstorming here.... Flat Stare

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interested

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TheBo wrote:
Wouldn’t be possible to add another port or maybe even 1 port per battery and charge it with multiple microUSB inputs?
maybe divided by diodes, so i you just have 1charger than good you charge slow, add another one and you charge double as fast, 1 charger per battery charges it 4 times faster.
Many powerbanks nowadays have at least 2 ports of 2+ Amps capable so 4A will be feasible.
Dunno about the circuitry tho.  Just brainstorming here…. Flat Stare

During traveling i don’t think you will have 4 powerbanks and 4 usb-cables with you for charging the lantern.
Also using chargers with different current would result in different voltage cells, which for sure isn’t good.
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My idea was just about 1 powerbank as I wrote, as almost every 10Ah + nowadays can deliver more than 3A. You have more than one usb port in the single powerbank and also you can use Y cable to use just powerbank to its maximum rated power delivery. And the cells would all be charged as it would one input so always parallel charging. With lab PSUs it is not uncommon to parallel them to double to Current or put them In series (not this case obviously) to Double the voltage

 

 

With my phone I cannot post images but this was the idea 

https://i.stack.imgur.com/Ha4KV.jpg

 

Rufusbduck wrote:
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