*BLF LT1 Lantern Project* (Post #6078 Lantern GB Price announced!

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ToyKeeper
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Phlogiston wrote:
I do have a question about the FET driver tint shift, though. Would the tint ramping capability let people manually correct for the tint shift at a given brightness? Or would the shift be in a different direction to the ramp within the colour space?

Sort of both. Higher modes tend to be cooler and whiter, while lower modes tend to be warmer and greener. The tint ramping can change the warm/cool balance, but it can’t change the white/colorful balance.

On this diagram, lower current levels tend to make the tint go to the right (warmer) and away from center (farther from the dotted line). Higher current generally makes tint go left (cooler) and toward the dotted line. The tint ramping can adjust things on a left/right axis but not an up/down axis.

For example of how current changes tint, maukka measured the Olight S1 Mini’s tint in different modes. At lower modes, it gets warmer and greener:

To minimize any warm/green shift, the lantern could use PWM at full power to keep the tint as close to white as possible. The lantern could also potentially use 3 emitters per channel instead of 4, to increase the current going to each emitter.

For an example, let’s say the lantern can make 600 lumens and it’s running at 33% brightness on a visually-linear scale. That works out to about 33 lumens total, at ramp level 50 of 150. With a 4000K tint it uses all 8 emitters, at about 4 lm each.

  • A constant current driver then delivers only about 10 mA to each emitter. On the Olight chart above, this would be somewhere between “moon” and “low”.
  • A PWM driver instead delivers 350mA to each emitter, producing about 150 lm per emitter, but only for a short time. Visual brightness looks the same, but the tint coordinate would be somewhere between “mid” and “high” on the chart above.

However, the chart shown is for a different emitter, and I don’t have data on the tint shift effect on LH351D. It may behave differently. Most LEDs follow the same general pattern though, where the lowest levels are the least white. When we increase efficiency by using those low levels, we also reduce the quality of light coming out.

So the question is whether to prioritize tint or efficiency.

Since the lantern is using high-CRI emitters, I’ve been assuming that tint is the priority, so an AMC7135-based driver would probably make the most sense for that purpose. But if efficiency is more of a concern, it could definitely use a linear FET driver with medium-CRI emitters. It’ll make significantly more lumens per Watt, delivering higher output and longer runtimes.

DBSAR
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The_Driver wrote:
Phlogiston wrote:
I do have a question about the FET driver tint shift, though. Would the tint ramping capability let people manually correct for the tint shift at a given brightness? Or would the shift be in a different direction to the ramp within the colour space?

Tint ist not CCT (color temperature). Tint is a deviation form perfect white light (which can be warm, cool or in between, always on the line of the black body radiator). Tint is when the light has a green tinge or is red-tinted for example.

The lantern will be able to change its CCT, not the tint.

Thats why were hoping the manufacturer can source the LED tint bins from Samsung listed earlier to keep the tint either close, on or below the BBL.

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

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ToyKeeper wrote:

To minimize any warm/green shift, the lantern could use PWM at full power to keep the tint as close to white as possible. The lantern could also potentially use 3 emitters per channel instead of 4, to increase the current going to each emitter.

For an example, let’s say the lantern can make 600 lumens and it’s running at 33% brightness on a visually-linear scale. That works out to about 33 lumens total, at ramp level 50 of 150. With a 4000K tint it uses all 8 emitters, at about 4 lm each.

  • A constant current driver then delivers only about 10 mA to each emitter. On the Olight chart above, this would be somewhere between “moon” and “low”.
  • A PWM driver instead delivers 350mA to each emitter, producing about 150 lm per emitter, but only for a short time. Visual brightness looks the same, but the tint coordinate would be somewhere between “mid” and “high” on the chart above.

However, the chart shown is for a different emitter, and I don’t have data on the tint shift effect on LH351D. It may behave differently. Most LEDs follow the same general pattern though, where the lowest levels are the least white. When we increase efficiency by using those low levels, we also reduce the quality of light coming out.

So the question is whether to prioritize tint or efficiency.

Since the lantern is using high-CRI emitters, I’ve been assuming that tint is the priority, so an AMC7135-based driver would probably make the most sense for that purpose. But if efficiency is more of a concern, it could definitely use a linear FET driver with medium-CRI emitters. It’ll make significantly more lumens per Watt, delivering higher output and longer runtimes.

I had originally planned for the lantern to use 3 emitters per channel then went to four per channel. If three emitter will work better i can re-design the LED star for a 3 + 3 LED config, but like you said above, there is not much data & tests on how the 351D reacts to higher currents as its such a new LED.

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

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DavidEF wrote:
Simple solution: You (Stereodude) design a boost driver board which includes a USB charging interface and fits into the Q8 size host. Also, it must use ATtiny85 or else you must port TK’s firmware to whichever MCU you decide to use. The driver design must not be too complicated nor the parts list too expensive for our Chinese manufacturer to make it reliably and at a reasonable price. Because time is of the essence, we will continue using Lexel’s design until you present yours to the team. Then we will discuss whether yours is good enough to merit making it the new standard. DEAL? Innocent
As long as you change the name of the lantern from the “Ultimate” to “We couldn’t be bothered to do it right.”
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Stereodude wrote:
DavidEF wrote:
Simple solution: You (Stereodude) design a boost driver board which includes a USB charging interface and fits into the Q8 size host. Also, it must use ATtiny85 or else you must port TK’s firmware to whichever MCU you decide to use. The driver design must not be too complicated nor the parts list too expensive for our Chinese manufacturer to make it reliably and at a reasonable price. Because time is of the essence, we will continue using Lexel’s design until you present yours to the team. Then we will discuss whether yours is good enough to merit making it the new standard. DEAL? Innocent
As long as you change the name of the lantern from the “Ultimate” to “We couldn’t be bothered to do it right.”

Hey, you’re the one who said boost drivers are ‘right’ AND you’re the one who said boost drivers are ‘easy’. Why would we need a name change if doing it right is easy for you?

The Cycle of Goodness: “No one prospers without rendering benefit to others”
- The YKK Philosophy

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Since the lantern is based on the Q8, I am assuming that it can only accept button top batteries right? Or will this lantern be designed with a battery carrier?

Phlogiston
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Thank you to The_Driver and ToyKeeper Thumbs Up

I understand the tint shift issue now. I’m unlikely to have a problem with tint shift unless it’s truly dire – CCT and CRI are the things I notice – but I agree that we should have the best quality light for everyone, especially since this is going to be a high CRI lantern (the feature that sold it to me).

If the 7135 driver with high frequency PWM is the favourite among the rest of you to achieve that, then it’s fine by me. High CRI and ramping from 3000K to 5000K are my must-haves; I’m not going to lose any sleep over the odd bit of efficiency here or there.

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DavidEF wrote:
Hey, you’re the one who said boost drivers are ‘right’ AND you’re the one who said boost drivers are ‘easy’. Why would we need a name change if doing it right is easy for you?
Because any help I was inclined to give vanished. I will roll my own driver for my lantern keep it to myself.
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Stereodude wrote:
A constant current boost driver can be PWM’d.

I must admit, I made an assumption. Usually when people talk about boost or buck drivers, it’s implied that the driver will function in a manner which delivers constant current to the emitters. It’s uncommon for people to talk about the benefits of boost/buck drivers and then use PWM. But the two concepts are indeed independent, and I shouldn’t assume.

It could even be possible to fix the level of boost current firmly in place and then use only one pin per channel to do PWM, turning the boost converters on and off. Maybe even give the boost circuits a regulated voltage source which bypasses the MCU, so it could still measure the battery directly on its VCC pin. I’m not a circuit designer so I’m not sure if it would work, but it seems like it might. And then instead of burning off a volt as heat, it might have a smaller amount of wasted energy.

This isn’t a thing I can make though. So for now I’ll go with the assumption that the driver will be one of the designs Lexel already posted. I’m particularly looking forward to trying out the new flashing connector at the edge of the board.

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Stereodude wrote:
DavidEF wrote:
Hey, you’re the one who said boost drivers are ‘right’ AND you’re the one who said boost drivers are ‘easy’. Why would we need a name change if doing it right is easy for you?
Because any help I was inclined to give vanished. I will roll my own driver for my lantern keep it to myself.

That’s the Spirit!!!

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chinooker wrote:
Stereodude wrote:
DavidEF wrote:
Hey, you’re the one who said boost drivers are ‘right’ AND you’re the one who said boost drivers are ‘easy’. Why would we need a name change if doing it right is easy for you?
Because any help I was inclined to give vanished. I will roll my own driver for my lantern keep it to myself.

That’s the Spirit!!!


YEAH! Party

rolleyes

The Cycle of Goodness: “No one prospers without rendering benefit to others”
- The YKK Philosophy

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Hi sbslider,

Can you add another one for me for a total of 3? If it makes any difference I’m currently 251 and 375 on the list.

Thanks

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huey18 wrote:
Since the lantern is based on the Q8, I am assuming that it can only accept button top batteries right? Or will this lantern be designed with a battery carrier?

it will be the same as the Q8 and positive contact ring, which will require button tops. (or the solder button mod to flat tops to work with them.

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

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DBSAR wrote:
huey18 wrote:
Since the lantern is based on the Q8, I am assuming that it can only accept button top batteries right? Or will this lantern be designed with a battery carrier?

it will be the same as the Q8 and positive contact ring, which will require button tops. (or the solder button mod to flat tops to work with them.

Thanks

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SIGShooter wrote:
Hi sbslider,

Can you add another one for me for a total of 3? If it makes any difference I’m currently 251 and 375 on the list.

Thanks


Done SIGShooter, added your third at number 970.

Captain_Joe wrote:
I´m in for one!

Gotcha Captain_Joe, you are number 969 on the interest list.

edit, Benidin added for a third lantern at 971 on the interest list.

PocketSammich wrote: I don’t need this, but I want it. Please sign me up.

Benidin
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I should be on the list for 2, and would like to goto 3 total please.

I really appreciate teh work you guys are putting into making a great lantern!

alternety
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A few pages back I was going to suggest a poll of people that have gotten a spot on the around 1000 devices spoken for. If that can be done so that each person signed up for the lamp would be notified, it would provide insight on those so far "committed". ID and units "ordered" would distribute the results for multi orders. The poll should provide a place to show how many the participant is intending to buy. The results would be scaled by buy quantity. A good list of possibilities in the poll would allow a sense of what the majority wants.I believe there are a lot of people waiting for these lanterns, but not interested in the technical details. They should be heard.

Personally I am on the side of highest efficiency (e.g., battery run time). No color light changing. No other functions like USB charging ports for cell phones or charging the lamp and poking extra holes in the shell. With stick in rubber covers that will eventually fall off and/or leak. I never really agreed with the non-use of the most efficient power system in the Q8 (I have 3). Nor was I particularly crazy about very complex operational requirements. Yes - you can sort of avoid them, but mis-stepping is also real easy. I think I actually suggested back then that the Q8 be used as the base rather than starting from scratch that the initial device was doing. But the old brain sometimes makes things up. But, for whatever reason, it went in the good direction we see now.

When this project started (I am one of the earlier people signing up for several of the lanterns), my expectation was:

A waterproof lantern

Robust construction

Simple operation

Maximum light duration with the most efficient power system possible (I do care if it goes dark 10% or 20% or more sooner than is necessary)

I think emergency light not beer party (although I see no reason why beer should not be involved)

Preferably with the ability to dim the lamp

No rubber plugged holes for external devices - no external devices or sources

A low intensity visible light in the power button

That was pretty much it. That defines a lantern in my mind. It is actually what I would still generally like.

So there are essentially my poll answers.

A quick other thought - has anyone looked at the effects of low ambient temperatures. I would think that things will get warm quickly, but will all of the pieces work to turn things on in low temperatures (e.g., 0 F). And by that I mean, it is 0 F outside, and the lamp has been sitting unused in the car/garage/front porch for two days.

JoeRodge
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Why was my name remove from the list?

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JoeRodge wrote:
Why was my name remove from the list?

Do you remember what number you were on the list? ( nobody should be removed unless it was accidental. ) message sbslider to get re-added if needed, as he is handling the interest list. Smile

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

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alternety wrote:

A few pages back I was going to suggest a poll of people that have gotten a spot on the around 1000 devices spoken for. If that can be done so that each person signed up for the lamp would be notified, it would provide insight on those so far “committed”. ID and units “ordered” would distribute the results for multi orders. The poll should provide a place to show how many the participant is intending to buy. The results would be scaled by buy quantity. A good list of possibilities in the poll would allow a sense of what the majority wants.I believe there are a lot of people waiting for these lanterns, but not interested in the technical details. They should be heard.


Personally I am on the side of highest efficiency (e.g., battery run time). No color light changing. No other functions like USB charging ports for cell phones or charging the lamp and poking extra holes in the shell. With stick in rubber covers that will eventually fall off and/or leak. I never really agreed with the non-use of the most efficient power system in the Q8 (I have 3). Nor was I particularly crazy about very complex operational requirements. Yes – you can sort of avoid them, but mis-stepping is also real easy. I think I actually suggested back then that the Q8 be used as the base rather than starting from scratch that the initial device was doing. But the old brain sometimes makes things up. But, for whatever reason, it went in the good direction we see now.


When this project started (I am one of the earlier people signing up for several of the lanterns), my expectation was:


A waterproof lantern


Robust construction


Simple operation


Maximum light duration with the most efficient power system possible (I do care if it goes dark 10% or 20% or more sooner than is necessary)


I think emergency light not beer party (although I see no reason why beer should not be involved)


Preferably with the ability to dim the lamp


No rubber plugged holes for external devices – no external devices or sources


A low intensity visible light in the power button


That was pretty much it. That defines a lantern in my mind. It is actually what I would still generally like.


So there are essentially my poll answers.


A quick other thought – has anyone looked at the effects of low ambient temperatures. I would think that things will get warm quickly, but will all of the pieces work to turn things on in low temperatures (e.g., 0 F). And by that I mean, it is 0 F outside, and the lamp has been sitting unused in the car/garage/front porch for two days.

Indeed the original V1 started out to be a simple lantern with 4 modes & long run-times, and good light tint, but over time it got developed into a more versatile design. Once we get the current V2 into production, we may work on a simpler, lower cost basic version of the same lantern for those who need just a simple, reliable off-grid light that will run for days with no bells & whistles for those seeking a “base model” so to speak.

That Canadian flashlight guy & Lantern Guru -Den / DBSARlight

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It’s weird because there were more people? Maybe people backed out? I was 928, lol. So it looks like it’s an improvement? Add me back please Smile

sbslider wrote:
JoeRodge wrote:
Add me to the list please. For one.

JoeRodge added at number 928 on the interest list.
smokuxx1987 wrote:
Add me to the list for 3.
smokuxx1987 added at numbers 929 – 931 on the interest list.

Looks like maybe people took things too serious. I’m not expecting the PERFECT lantern, lol. Just an improvement of what is out there. From what I’ve read I’m pretty excited. Beside, the “ultimate” lantern won’t be that way for long. Every light eventually gets dethroned. The lumen race, size race, etc. Nobody holds it long…

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DBSAR wrote:
The_Driver wrote:
Phlogiston wrote:
I do have a question about the FET driver tint shift, though. Would the tint ramping capability let people manually correct for the tint shift at a given brightness? Or would the shift be in a different direction to the ramp within the colour space?

Tint ist not CCT (color temperature). Tint is a deviation form perfect white light (which can be warm, cool or in between, always on the line of the black body radiator). Tint is when the light has a green tinge or is red-tinted for example.

The lantern will be able to change its CCT, not the tint.

Thats why were hoping the manufacturer can source the LED tint bins from Samsung listed earlier to keep the tint either close, on or below the BBL.


That is critical. Tint above the BBL can be very unpleasant for staying longer periods of time, and it makes foods and people uglier. If we are building the “ultimate” light we should strive towards getting the best output available. And that includes below BBL tint, and R9 values above 90. This chosen led has tint in the green, and R9 values that are between 60-70 as far as I can see http://budgetlightforum.com/comment/1355850#comment-1355850 which is not ideal for a BLF lantern, since we are choosing the parts.

Since we are set on these leds, at least we can try to find some some samples from Samsung that are lower in the BBL which will boost the R9 values a bit, and make the light more pleasant for longer usage.

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It’s simply impossible to build the perfect lantern for everyone. Some want the longest possible runtime, others the best tint & cri and we need to find a good compromise. But I like the idea to build an enthusiast variant with all the great features (like tint ramping, powerbank,…) And a simpler base Version for the one who don’t need this.

Concerning the driver I want the highest efficiency that is possible without significantly influencing the light quality.

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The thing with the boost driver, which would work the most efficient and I would love to see it happen, is that someone must design it (Sofirn won’t I’m sure), with all requirements like: for Sofirn affordable parts and able to run TK’s UI. If someone can do that now I think it is a good idea. If a boost driver development remains on the level of a theoretical discussion for too long it just delays the design of the lantern and in the end the boost driver may not even happen after all.

That is what makes the Lexel design so attractive: we suggest it, he just makes it, it is there and can be used. Same for Toykeepers firmware: we discuss what we would like for it and she already wrote the firmware, with smart features added that we even did not think of. And both have skills that Sofirn lacks so both BLF and Sofirn profit from the cooperation.

In my opinion, without the most efficient driver possible, this lantern may still be called the ‘ultimate’ lantern Wink .

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sbslider wrote:
JoeRodge wrote:
Add me to the list please. For one.

JoeRodge added at number 928 on the interest list.

smokuxx1987 wrote:
Add me to the list for 3.

smokuxx1987 added at numbers 929 – 931 on the interest list.

Hi does anyone updated interest list last time?
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djozz wrote:
The thing with the boost driver, which would work the most efficient and I would love to see it happen, is that someone must design it (Sofirn won’t I’m sure), with all requirements like: for Sofirn affordable parts and able to run TK’s UI. If someone can do that now I think it is a good idea. If a boost driver development remains on the level of a theoretical discussion for too long it just delays the design of the lantern and in the end the boost driver may not even happen after all.

That is what makes the Lexel design so attractive: we suggest it, he just makes it, it is there and can be used. Same for Toykeepers firmware: we discuss what we would like for it and she already wrote the firmware, with smart features added that we even did not think of. And both have skills that Sofirn lacks so both BLF and Sofirn profit from the cooperation.

In my opinion, without the most efficient driver possible, this lantern may still be called the ‘ultimate’ lantern Wink .

Well said.

I wanted to say something like this last night, but couldn’t find a good way to put it, so I set it aside and went to bed. I’m glad you’ve said it for me Smile

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ToyKeeper wrote:

The light operates the same as any other Anduril light, but with one key difference: While the light is on, in almost any mode, the user can “click, click, hold” to make it change tint. This happens smoothly without significantly affecting total lumen output. If the color changes in the wrong direction, let go of the button and do it again.

Has the lantern Andúril one setting for both ramps or can we have different tints for the smooth ramp and the stepped ramp?

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joechina wrote:
Has the lantern Andúril one setting for both ramps or can we have different tints for the smooth ramp and the stepped ramp?

So far, it has a single tint value which applies to all modes and can be changed at any time.

I haven’t even thought about making the tint change based on which ramp it’s using. The main fancy bit I thought about doing, perhaps, is dedicating one of the 256 tint values to “automatic” — warmer at low levels and cooler at high levels. In particular, it might be a nice thing to do in candle mode. But I haven’t tried that so I don’t know if it would be worthwhile.

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Benidin wrote:
I should be on the list for 2, and would like to goto 3 total please.

I really appreciate teh work you guys are putting into making a great lantern!


Benidin added to interest list for a third lantern at number 971. Your other two are at 453 and 454. These numbers are not really important, and will likely go away soon. huey18 is generating a bot to automate this list keeping. Until it is done I am doing it manually.

PocketSammich wrote: I don’t need this, but I want it. Please sign me up.

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JoeRodge wrote:
It’s weird because there were more people? Maybe people backed out? I was 928, lol. So it looks like it’s an improvement? Add me back please Smile

sbslider wrote:
JoeRodge wrote:
Add me to the list please. For one.

JoeRodge added at number 928 on the interest list.
smokuxx1987 wrote:
Add me to the list for 3.
smokuxx1987 added at numbers 929 – 931 on the interest list.

Looks like maybe people took things too serious. I’m not expecting the PERFECT lantern, lol. Just an improvement of what is out there. From what I’ve read I’m pretty excited. Beside, the “ultimate” lantern won’t be that way for long. Every light eventually gets dethroned. The lumen race, size race, etc. Nobody holds it long…


I still have not sent an updated interest list. You can see the interest list anytime you like. Will likely send an updated list to DBSAR in the next couple days.

interest list sorted by entry number

interest list sorted by user names

I sent an updated interest list to DBSAR today, so if you don’t like looking at the links above, I imagine in a day or two he will update the interest list in the first thread post.

PocketSammich wrote: I don’t need this, but I want it. Please sign me up.

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