Cree changed production process for XP-G2 emitters!

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luminarium iaculator
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Cree changed production process for XP-G2 emitters!

First I want to say that I never had issue with this emitter until now…

So what is happening?

I run out of stock on them so I ordered new batch of 30 XPG2S4 2B emitters presoldered on a star from IO store.

Thing that is happening is that they all have lower output than previous batch of emitters, they are a bit harder to dedome and they have greenish tint Sad

I tried gas, thinner and hot dedome and tint is always the same.

With previous batch of xpg2s42b emitters from IO they all have cooler(NW tint) when dedomed.

So maybe I even did not got XPG2S42B as I ordered? I really don’t know how to test this for sure or how to complain to seller?

Anyway I feel like I wasted 100$…

Does anyone here experienced similar?

Update:
New XPG2S42B emitters seems larger than old ones:

Here is Real XP-G2 S4 2B on the left and F ducked xpg2s42b on the right:

Here is real XP-G2 S4 2B surrounded by f ducked xpg2s42b attackers that wants to dethrone it Smile

Mitko took photo of this:

left is new XP-G2 S4 2B vs old style XP-G2

Mitko took another picture this is C8 host XP-G2 S2 1A on the left and new f ducked xpg2s42b on the right

Update:

Flashy Mike wrote:
I have had a similar experience with several XP-G2 S3 3D which I recently bought. 1 Amp less with high drain cell and about 20% less lux compared to same (?) LED I got 2 months earlier.

Update:

Led4power had similar issue a year ago!

This thread: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/39097

Djozz received them and he did a pre testing:

djozz wrote:

I received the leds from LI. I hope to test them on monday (no guarantees), but already I did a visual comparison with an old batch XP-G2 S4 2B from intl-outdoor with the stereo-microscope tonight, left old XP-G2 S4 2B, right new XP-G2 S4 2B (when mouse-over works again I will insert it):


 


At least it is clear that the production proces has undergone a change, as LI already showed, and led4power already reported a year ago: the new die seems slightly bigger (dedoming will give exact numbers), the number of dots on the die have increased, the phosfor is rougher (not clear on the picture, very apparent in real life), the tint of the phosfor is a bit more orange with small red bits in it which are absent in the old die. This suggests a warmer tint, and this suggestion gets stronger when the boards are inspected under 365nm light (left old, right new, btw the Noctigon boards are clearly another batch too, a different red paint is used):





But when the leds are lighted up (in series on a led-tester, picture is at ~1mA, but at 50mA the difference is the same), the tint difference is not dramatic, the old led a bit more green, the new led a bit more red, but I would place them at the same colour temperature. If both would be 2B I can not estimate by eye. I have a small colour tester coming in next month that can tell more about that.



I’m curious about any output differences. More about that to come!

Djozz continues testing domed version:

djozz wrote:

Output results.


I tested the new XP-G2 S4 2B for voltage and output and plotted it against an earlier test of the XP-G2 S4 2B. I followed my usual method. Some remarks:


*these are tests of single leds, mind that results will vary among equally spec’ed leds within the voltage and output bin-classes


*since last XP-G2 S4 2B test my current measuring has changed a bit, the same current reads 0.1A lower now, this is not corrected in the graph


*since last test I cleaned the inside of my integrating sphere, it reads ~1% higher now, this is also not corrected in the graph.


 



What can be seen:


-If you correct the new numbers to 0.1A higher current and 1% lower output, the old and new led have virtually the same output up to 3A. Above 3A the old led seems to gradually perform better, so the new led seems to have a slightly worse thermal resistance. But it must be said that I did not reflow the leds myself (based on own experiments I use solder quite generously) , both were done by intl-outdoor: a thermal pad with somewhat sparse solder could already account for this difference.


-The voltage is a different story, once again in a new batch the voltage went up: by 0.1V at 1.5A, and 0.2V at 4A. This is of course killing for single li-ion use in flashlights, and this may be the single most important cause of the lower performance reported by LI. There is of course the uncertainty of measuring just one led, it could be a particularly high voltage one.


-At 1.5A, which is the highest current that these leds are officially rated for, the performance of the new batch XP-G2 S4 2B is great, a somewhat higher voltage but I doubt that it falls out of specs with that Sad


 


I’m not sure if I need to proceed with dedoming and further measurements, the results sofar explain IMO pretty well what is going on with this led…

Not only XPG2 they probably changed production process for XML2s!

vestureofblood wrote:
Hi luminarium,

All of the XPG2s I had up till now must have either been from the origonal type or I just didn’t notice the change. However I will throw my 2 cents in. This “upgrade” was not only done to XPG2s, but also to XML2s. Or at least “a” change was made. I never had any trouble with a change in tint, however the output from a single XML2 U4 bin dropped VERY significantly about 3 months ago due to a spike in the needed VF. I tested piles of LEDs from multiple sources to try and regain some ampers, but no luck.
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/44376

I probly would not have even noticed accept I test custom builds like my shorty Maglites before they go out on a regular basis. Out of all the XML2s I have used since then I have found only one that tested out the way nearly all of the ones I got off RMMs first reel last year did.

I just hope when XML3 lands we recover some of that nice low VF as most of my builds use a mosfet driver. Smile

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Edited by: luminarium iaculator on 04/23/2016 - 05:01
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Last batch of mentioned emitters were neutral whites when dedomed. They were also easier to dedome and they had/have greater output.

I fell like I did not got what I order.
Not just feel… I know that this is not it cause I use them in same flashlight, under same conditions and yet I have lower output with very green tint.

I just wondered if anyone else has similar issues. Maybe I am not the only one? Sad

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I once dedomed a 2B XP-G2 i think it was R5 from IOS and gave me Brown tint

I have dedomed a alot of leds with different tints but the best one was the 1A and the 0B looked very nice too for that my thrower project is held from about a year tell i find a 4S XP-G2 led in 1A tint or 0A

I hope you find your answer but in the meantime i advice you not to dedome the rest leds

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I just want to see does anyone else have similar issues from same store with mentioned emitters.

If more person have similar issues that means I am not crazy Smile

So far I really feel crazy cause I know how XPG2S42B dedomed should look and now it looks like c ra b and it has lower performance.

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I do order S4 2B on a random base from IOS, its tint was always kinda greenish, FT`s S2 2B has kinda pinky tint after dedoming( but the latest batch came very bad)
They do hot dedome fairly OK and gas dedoming is always nice: those days i have to dedome 4-5 pcs of those, will post a pics for you to see yourself

Just yesterday i `ve builded a C8 for a hunter with S4 2B- nothing special as usual- 170k mcds, same tint, 4.3 tail amps: sometimes those barely hit 4 amps, i have 2pcs that are capable of 4.7 aps and one S2 0d is running at 5 amps

The tint is EXACLY like the M3XS tint btw, i mean exacly: With the Nitecore AR glass
With a Convoy or FT AR glass the tint is usualy pinky

O.T

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I have few of them on the way from IO. I ordered them few days ago. I can get back to you when they arrive. Plan is to dedome and put in my brinyte 158 zoomie. Problem is that I don’t have any old ones to compare with.

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I have no idea how to check if you received a wrong tint/bin other than doing exactly what you did: check tint by eye, amps by DMM, and output with a luxmeter. But even if they are different, what they appear to be, it could be a different reel from a different production date and these leds may fall on the other side of the same tint and bin category but are noticably different. How much lower output do you get, is it more than one bin-category?

I would ask Hank about if something happened to his supply. He has a reputation of delivering what he promises, so I expect him to take this seriously.

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Thanks on replies guys.

Test subject is 1503 flashlight with good lenses that with previous batch of IO xpg2s42b emitter does 240 kcd.

Driver is diy Djozz FET driver, bypassed springs on both ends. LG HG2 (but I also tried Samsung 30Q just in case of bad hg2 batch).

This is order from IO store placed at 13.02.2016. (30pcs) But I started building them several days ago.

So I did build several 1503 pills with newest IO order and I got around 180 kcd results with 3 different dedome methods Sad

I started with gas dedoming as usual so I thought gas screwed phosphor layer
Next; I tried thinner same thing…
Next; I did hot dedome(screwed 1 emitter btw) and same tint again.

Lower output, green tint. I could really chew green tint… But I can’t chew lower output. I would say this is R5 bin not S4. Maybe somewhere in 1A tint range when dome on Sad

Last batch of XP-G2 S4 2B has creamy NV tint(yes maybe little greenish on the edges, but comparing to this one is neutral white).

Maybe it is new bad batch of xpg2 S4… Maybe I fu duck something… But I am pretty experienced in modding and dedoming, and I am not using drugs. Just alcohol sometimes…

Guys please keep reporting if you find similar problems.

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Cula wrote:
I have few of them on the way from IO. I ordered them few days ago. I can get back to you when they arrive. Plan is to dedome and put in my brinyte 158 zoomie. Problem is that I don’t have any old ones to compare with.

Please report.

Your B158 should do at least 320 kcd with fet driver. So it is very simple here.. Green tint and lets say 250-270 kcd and you have bad one as I do.

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180k is pretty damn low, i got those with XML2 U3…who knows, maybe a bad batch realy 180k mcds isnt okay
You sure bout the 1503 lenses quality? I gave up on those especialy for the lenses- too many bad ones, too many came broken, i got boored with it

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Mitko wrote:
180k is pretty damn low, i got those with XML2 U3…who knows, maybe a bad batch realy 180k mcds isnt okay You sure bout the 1503 lenses quality? I gave up on those especialy for the lenses- too many bad ones, too many came broken, i got boored with it

Yes I got 25 bad lenses from 50 pcs order (i PM you about that), after that I wrote complaint and got 25 hand selected lenses directly from factory for free, and they are all good ones with old xpg2s42b batch. So I can really recommend UF factory(Rubby) cause they care about costumers.

I found Djozz old picture 1503 vs B158(done with xpg2s42b) which confirms what i talked about. Am I right Djozz?

UF1503 tint is creamy nw white with just bit green on the edges:

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luminarium iaculator
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I called one of my buddies to help me to take pictures, and he also took one of his XP-G2 S4 2B dedomed emitter so I did pill with his emitter.

I know now that I did not get XPGS42B emitter for sure! I will complaint to Hank about that. That is no way to treat old costumer!

Differences are huge… So with this experiment I confirmed to myself that real XP-G2 S4 2B has one of the nicest de domed tints(neutral creamy white with just bit greenish pigment)

left “new” batch XPG2S42B emitter right is real XPG2S4B emitter

So I have terrible start of the year. First strike on me is that 25 out of 50 1503 lenses were bad and I complaint and got replacement hand selected lenses and they are all ok now. UF factory is positive to deal with.

And now this: I did not got XP-G2 S4 2B emitter… And this really drives me crazy… I cant sell 250 kcd light as I stated to my costumers. I can only sell 180 kcd light with ugliest green tint world ever seen…

The craziest thing about wrong emitter issue is that I blamed myself, and dedoming methods I use… So I really dedomed about 15 of them with different dedome methods (i dedomed them like a mad man). Each and one of them is perfectly dedomed and each and every one of them looks green with significant less output comparing to real XP G2 S4 2B.

My experiment with this crap emitter also showed that there is no tint shift with gas/thinner/hot method. Remember that guys… NO one can convince me in opposite now.

So far more than 100$ is thrown in a wind…

I will see how Hank will react on this.

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That is not good. Please keep us posted on how you worked it out with IO. I’ll post pictures of my XP-G2’s as soon as they arrive.

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I send email to Hank. The thing is that visually you can’t see any difference between them when dedomed(at least I can’t see difference).

Differences are noticeable only when you put them in a same host, on lux meter, and wall tint difference (in this case it is so huge difference so even 80 year old grandad could notice that without glasses).

So if you do not have spare pills or multiple hosts of same flashlights like I have it is pain in a but to find the truth.

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Update (Hank answered):

We only buy sealed reels directly from CREE, and there is no 1A or other LED you said in stock.
Those S4 2B LED that the customers received could be from different reels
since we always have fresh stock every month.

2B as you know on the ANSI white chart allows some variability on both axis,
so CREE does not guarantee an absolute tint
even if it is called 2B, even us we rate it as variable 5700-6100K,
which is only the variability of the X axis, then there is the variability on the Y axis.

That being said, we do not guarantee any tint shift/different for the dedomed LEDs.

Brightness output and forward voltage are under certain tolerances also, they vary slightly.

As for your doubt of lower bin LED, I would suggest you to send random 2 pcs domed/intact S4 2B LED to Djozz
for testing, and compare with his result, if the result is not in the range of the tolerance
that CREE stated, then we would agree there is some “problem” there.

Otherwise, there is no proof to it.

Regards.
Hank

My answer:
Hank there is no doubt in lower performance and tint shift at all. They under-perform for more than 30%

As I said I can chew green tint but I can’t chew lower performance.

I will send them all to Djozz if he will agree cause they have no use to me.

I want to ask you one more question here…

Do you exclude possibility of your or your worker mistake? I mean is it possible you send me wrong XP-G2?

So Djozz do you agree with this Hank suggestion? I’ll sent you rest of them (about 15 pcs) for free and you never and ever need return it to me.

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Hehe, it seems that djozz became somekinda “led standart” arround the torch world, great for him and us- he should buy a real spectrometer you know, Assensetek or something,they shooul discount him at least 50%

luminarium iaculator

Thats realy strange, you see i usualy rest every batch that i got with Assensetek Lighting passport, so far Only IOS and KD emitters were as claimed, FT cant be trusted, they sent emitters randomly whatever they got in stock i presume

Well, it could be Cree`s fault at the end…we all know VW diesel story, i wont be surpriced if Cree do the same thing , they are big enough, they can affort that Smile

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So far Hank had good goods… Last good batch of GP-G2 S4 2B were from his store. I bought over 800$ from his store but now… Until I resolve this issue I really can’t be confident to buy again. I did not asked him for refund either…

I only asked him to send me real XP-G2 S4 2B emitters which I will pay cause I have waiting costumers for flashlights, and I can’t deploy them flashlight with low performing emitters he sent.

So if I can’t confidently buy from him from whom to buy now?

If anyone has old batch of this emitters ordered before November 2015 and they don’t need them I am willing to buy them.

And of course I agree we should all buy Djozz more expensive testing equipment. Buck or two from all of us and he’ll get it.

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luminarium iaculator wrote:
So far Hank had good goods… Last good batch of GP-G2 S4 2B were from his store. I bought over 800$ from his store but now… Until I resolve this issue I really can’t be confident to buy again. I did not asked him for refund either…

I only asked him to send me real XP-G2 S4 2B emitters which I will pay cause I have waiting costumers for flashlights, and I can’t deploy them flashlight with low performing emitters he sent.

So if I can’t confidently buy from him from whom to buy now?

If anyone has old batch of this emitters ordered before November 2015 and they don’t need them I am willing to buy them.

And of course I agree we should all buy Djozz more expensive testing equipment. Buck or two from all of us and he’ll get it.

Try to talk to 3tronics. Maybe his batch is older. Don’t know his source but it is worth a try.

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You just reminded me Smile .. I bought last 8 pcs he had couple of month ago XPG2 S4 2B bare was £2.25 each + 8£ shipping. They were good although a little rusty from bottom layer of emitter. Will ask him…

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I took one more real xp g2 s4 2b from friend and now i took comparison picture with fu duck xp g2 s4 2b

left real xp g2 s4 2b(thinner dedomed) right f ducked xp g2 s4 2b (gas dedomed)

It seems that right one is slightly larger? WTF? with slightly more yellowish phosphor?

I would really be glad to send them all to Djozz.., Something terribly wrong here…

Happy Easter! Smile

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Dont you have a macro mode ? a cleared photo would be nice – the layer`s colour could be changed due to the chemistry you know

O.T

Out orthodox Easter this year is a month after today, i never understood how do they calculate it every year but anyway Happy Easter to our catholic , protestant and any other cristian brother arround the world.

On that day we usualy say: “Jesus has risen” like a greeting

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luminarium iaculator wrote:
I took one more real xp g2 s4 2b from friend and now i took comparison picture with fu duck xp g2 s4 2b

left real xp g2 s4 2b(thinner dedomed) right f ducked xp g2 s4 2b (gas dedomed)

It seems that right one is slightly larger? WTF? with slightly more yellowish phosphor?

I would really be glad to send them all to Djozz.., Something terribly wrong here…

Happy Easter! Smile

The size differences in the two dies are definitely noticeable.

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Will try to take better pics tomorrow… This were taken under room lamp. I know something is bad here… It is either Cree or Hank mixed something up…

Newest f ducked XP-G2 S4 2B looks larger with more yellowish phosphor than real XP-G2 S4 2B

Anyway I hope after Easter holidays Djozz will manage to see this “curious case of xp-g2 s4 2b emitter”

I still have 15 domed ones for testing + 14 dedomed if needed (I killed one with hot dedome)

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Do you have a digital caliper? Could you measure the difference between dies? Macro shot would be nice.

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luminarium iaculator wrote:
Update (Hank answered): [SNIP] As for your doubt of lower bin LED, I would suggest you to send random 2 pcs domed/intact S4 2B LED to Djozz for testing, and compare with his result, if the result is not in the range of the tolerance that CREE stated, then we would agree there is some “problem” there. [SNIP]
I’m surprised that Hank Wang would refer you to djozz in that way. Djozz spends a lot of time doing testing and sharing the results with us. I think he’s made it clear that he has a finite amount of time to spend on this hobby (same as most of us). If djozz offers to help you out that’s one thing, but just expecting djozz to test LEDs for Hank/customer to clear up a $100 dispute is ridiculous!

Mitko wrote:
Dont you have a macro mode ? a cleared photo would be nice
I agree, clear photos would good. Ideally well lit and directly top-down photos * together *(b) separate with a scale (ruler / etc) right next to each LED package. That would be great.

Still taking a break. Smile
list of my drivers & variants (A17DD, FET+1 stuff, WIP stuff, etc)

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I think if I kindly ask Djozz he will do all that for all of us. I did not opened dispute and I did not demanded refund from Hank Wang. I don’t want to be rude but I sucked here and I forgot on that 100$.

I don’t have photo skills or quality photo camera. This was the less blurriest pic I managed to take. I will try to take better one during daytime.

So here is the riddle:

I am little yellow bugger, totally out of dimensions and I pretend to be king of thrower emitters sold from one of the most respective flashlight parts store on the planet and I suck the blood out of Luminarium Iaculator on Easter… Who am I?

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If you send some of these leds to me, I will do an output test on a domed emitter, because that is the state in which these leds are sold and guaranteed to work. I have a nifty little device on order (will take another month to arrive) that can measure colour temperature and CIE1931 values, so when it arrives I can even tell you if the tint is indeed (close to) a 2B.

About given equipment: this is logically followed by more work and the feeling of being obliged to do things with it, neither of which is in agreement with my idea of this being a hobby Wink

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It’s the first Sunday after the first full moon after the spring equinox! Honest. Equinox was Saturday 19th,full moon on Wednesday 23rd so today is Easter Sunday.

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djozz wrote:
If you send some of these leds to me, I will do an output test on a domed emitter, because that is the state in which these leds are sold and guaranteed to work. I have a nifty little device on order (will take another month to arrive) that can measure colour temperature and CIE1931 values, so when it arrives I can even tell you if the tint is indeed (close to) a 2B.

About given equipment: this is logically followed by more work and the feeling of being obliged to do things with it, neither of which is in agreement with my idea of this being a hobby Wink

Thank you very much Sir!

I will send all non dedomed to you because if they are total useless for me. They will be total useless to you for sure Smile
Please don’t be angry but I would also like you to test and compare them to real XP G2 S4 2B in dedomed versions.

As I promised… New day pictures are here (I can’t be better than that and Djozz will test them and he is way more qualified for that than I )

Here is Real XP-G2 S4 2B on the left and F ducked xpg2s42b on the right:

Here is real XP-G2 S4 2B surrounded by f ducked xpg2s42b attackers that wants to dethrone it Smile

I will just say King is only one baby! And he’ll rip your hearts out!

So enjoy guys in this drama.

So King of BLF Djozz will continue with further review of “attackers” Wink

Modding is making something how you want it to be, not how it comes stock...

Old-Lumens

Pöbel
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Joined: 02/14/2013 - 08:27
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Location: Germany

Cree already increased the Die size of the XP-G2 in the past to achieve higher bins.

seems they did it again. The result is obviously less throw.

I don’t think anybody is at fault here, just the product changed slighty and no longer qualifies for our field of use, which clearly has never beem approved not promised by the manufacturer.

Unfortunately this really sucks for ua thrower fans, as getting fresh stock now becomes a problem.

fenno
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^^yes, they are the orginal ones. They have just made the DIE size larger. In my test I can´t find any less lux rates. More lumes with a larger die size without to get less lux.

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