Nichia 144A and 229A series: bigger dies, more output, 90CRI included,.......but no thermal slug :-(

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DB Custom
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We’re just gonna have to put due diligence to work, aren’t we? Build em, work em hard, see what shakes loose…

Slim Pickens
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To simplify, 1D thermal resistance is a function of conductivity, layer thickness and conducting X-section area. If we’re stuck with using dielectric and copper, we can control 2 of those three variables.

Mitigate thermal bottlenecking by designing positive/negative copper pads as thick and wide as possible, instead of narrow traces. Heat flux can flow through larger cross section of dielectric layer.
Bottom layer is copper and thinner than than +/- pad layer.

For given dielectric layer thickness,
Larger X-section of dielectric -> smaller thermal resistance of dielectric layer -> smaller ∆Temperature across dielectric layer -> cooler temp @ LED die. It won’t ever be as good as true DTP but depending on PCB size it could approach DTP performance. Also, if it works well with 16mm board it will only do better at 20mm.

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BeO has safety risks but a similar safer ceramic might suffice. I’m guessing this is a cheaper-easier way for Nichia to reach their efficiency goals within their stated usage parameters. That would be a good business move for an emitter manufacturer, but maybe not for us flashlight people.

It is well to remember that we’re just riding along with the emitter manufacturers- we are not driving the bus. If the emitter business slows due to market saturation or whatever maybe they’ll spend some time designing things just for us. Until then bursts of brilliance followed by dim blue haze (sometimes followed by blue air) will be our baliwick and bane but it shall not stop our relentless pursuit of more and purer lumens! Onward and forward! Full speed ahead! Thumbs Up

Phil

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Might be an instance where the nano materials dielectric would be useful combined with max sized +/- traces.

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Nano-what? 

FastTech blows goats for half price, once again my order got delayed 12½ days later, they don't seem to be able to get a hold of these alu-nano plates. I'm on the verge of ordering a Sinkpad and be done with it. 

 

Cheers Party

P.S.: edited that not so discreet smiley. Smile

DB Custom
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Barkuti, pretty sure an animated smiley flippin the bird is in direct violation of forum rules on profanity. You might wanna check that…

MEM
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Here’s where I get a little confused with electrical arrangements in LEDs.

A common 5.6mm laser diode-can, can be powered over the ground pin, which is sometimes (-) and sometimes (+). As an example, 405nm diodes use a boost driver, 18650 for power, and the body would be negative just like a flashlight, with a diode vF of 5-6V. OK, it’s common practice to solder the negative and ground pin together on the same wire, positive pin on other wire of course. Clearly the driver still has to complete the circuit for power to flow. Why can’t an LED resolve the same outcome? Where negative could be your DTP. Question

Anyways, I would certainly love to try these two LEDs. It’s incredible what the 219C is rated at on the spec sheet (326 lumens, I think), vs what it can actually output. Just think about the possibility of the other two then, when cooled correctly. The 144AM rated at 1300-1400 lumens at highest bin; I could only imagine a single mono die LED with moderate CRI potentially unleashing 3200-4000 lumens under a smooth reflector.

I like bright lights, and I cannot lie.

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In the meantime, are they seen for sale anywhere? I would not mind doing an output test on a home-made copper board, like I did for the Luxeon Z test.

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A little more 144A info:
- Emitting area: 4×4mm (16mm2) – same configuration as a XHP35 (with lower forward voltage)?
- Aluminium Nitride substrate (285 W/(m·K))
- Gold contacts

Quote:

Distributor of the brand Nichia in Italy, Welt Electronic presents the new multichip series 144A. Nichia, a company of the first
magnitude in the products Mid Power and High Power, deals with the application market outdoor, street and tunnel lighting,
with a multichip Super Hight Power consists of four chips of 2 mm2, close to each other and arranged in a square: a plus optically unequaled.

These are the characteristics of the series 144A: Aluminium Nitride substrate, a component that increases the efficiency and
lowers the thermal resistance; Nichia Flip – Chip technology, which eliminates the process of wire bonding as a connection between the anode and cathode, presents a critical element in less than the technologies adopted by
other manufacturers; gold electrodes, which allow not to decay in application, because it is completely free from corrosion in an
environment saturated

Alumininium nitrite looks like the way to go creating a board for mounting these.. it should be reasonably cheap to have someone make a bunch of 16 and 20mm disks… then glue two pieces of copper sheet to the top to act as electrodes. Done.

Welt Electronics sounds like one possible source.

MEM
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Manual Man wrote:
A little more 144A info:
- Emitting area: 4×4mm (16mm2) – same configuration as a XHP35 (with lower forward voltage)?
- Aluminium Nitride substrate (285 W/(m·K))
- Gold contacts

Quote:

Distributor of the brand Nichia in Italy, Welt Electronic presents the new multichip series 144A. Nichia, a company of the first
magnitude in the products Mid Power and High Power, deals with the application market outdoor, street and tunnel lighting,
with a multichip Super Hight Power consists of four chips of 2 mm2, close to each other and arranged in a square: a plus optically unequaled.

These are the characteristics of the series 144A: Aluminium Nitride substrate, a component that increases the efficiency and
lowers the thermal resistance; Nichia Flip – Chip technology, which eliminates the process of wire bonding as a connection between the anode and cathode, presents a critical element in less than the technologies adopted by
other manufacturers; gold electrodes, which allow not to decay in application, because it is completely free from corrosion in an
environment saturated

Alumininium nitrite looks like the way to go creating a board for mounting these.. it should be reasonably cheap to have someone make a bunch of 16 and 20mm disks… then glue two pieces of copper sheet to the top to act as electrodes. Done.

Welt Electronics sounds like one possible source.

That’s more like an XHP70 actually (which has 2mm² “XM-L2” dies), yet made as a monolithic die of course without the spaces. Wink

That would be good! XHP70-like output, no window frame=no donut hole.

If we’re talking about what-ifs, this company is placing Cree dies into cylindrical LASER style cans! (I can find the company again if anyone actually wants to know who.)

Of course I would still love to know the reason why negative could not be body-grounded for heatsinking if positive was isolated. Smile

I like bright lights, and I cannot lie.

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djozz wrote:
A thermal pad is needed because you want to thermally connect the led to the flashlight with no non-metal obstructions, and the electrical pads can not be used for a direct metal connection. The output advantage of a direct thermal path only starts at an out-of-spec current (under 3A a XM-L2 shows hardly an advantage) and gets more when current increases. What would work really well as a non-DTP board would be a non-DTP board like this: !https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1666/25785416473_72a29f05fd_m.jpg! (orange is the copper-poor, blue is the exposed copper for soldering) If the MCPCB is made with an as thick copper-poor as can be produced, the heat will spread sideways fast and have then enough surface area to cross the dielectric layer efficiently. This board can be used with all the two-pad leds that are out there and boost their performance compared to the common boards. No-one makes these, perhaps we can ask Hank to have a Noctigon version of this board designed.

 

Already made several MCPCB specially designed for this one! You can crash test the LEDs and the MCPCB (I got several CCTs) after Maukka spectral tested them all Wink

The samples took off the factory in Japan in 160829. Don't know how long until they get here.

I created a thread HERE (copied from my thread in CPF), because I didn't know you did it first wink Worth take a look for some comparison with popular CRI90 Crees. Well, at least spec by spec in the high 90CRI domain, it's superior than comparable XHP50 (colour and performance).

 

Cheers,

Clemence

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MEM wrote:

Of course I would still love to know the reason why negative could not be body-grounded for heatsinking if positive was isolated. :-)

Most, if not all, flashlight led drivers regulate the current to the led by the low side. This means the led's positive lead is directly connected to the battery anode, and its negative lead goes down to the driver, while at the same time the flashlight body, and thus the led's thermal pad, is at battery cathode potential.

And this is the solution, for y'all to see:

Installing the batteries in reverse, we would set the thermal pad and the led's positive lead at anode potential: both leads can get unified. In this way, we would only need to isolate the led's negative lead to the driver. However, this requires a slight led driver PCB redesign to shift their boards polarities: battery cathode connected from the underside central pad, anode through the driver sides/pill and, well, through a positive wire coming from the led MCPCB (lower resistance connection, fellows). 

Did I put my foot on someone's mouth? Where's my prize? 

 

Cheers Party

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We would have to know if both pads are doing the heat transfer to the star.
if so, one could solder the LED on 2 half circles of copper and then put electrical isolation between it and the pill.
That way you have direct thermal path to the star and a big surface with maybe kapton film and some goo on the star.
This way you can avoid the fuss of re-designing the host flashlight.
.
[EDIT]
Just learned that 90% of the heat transfer is through the cathode.
But i think it’s a good option to isolate the star from the pill, not the LED from the star.
[/EDIT]

2Q19

clemence
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Most of the heat generated at the cathode side. I made my design according to Nichia’s suggestion: Here

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BLF Member djozz has some very nice non-DTP boards for the Nichias without thermal pads. He had some made so he could test out his design with a new MCPCB manufacturer that showed up here a while back. He’s selling them now, at cost. They’re $2USD each. Look at his signature line for a link to the thread.

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DavidEF wrote:
BLF Member djozz has some very nice non-DTP boards for the Nichias without thermal pads. He had some made so he could test out his design with a new MCPCB manufacturer that showed up here a while back. He’s selling them now, at cost. They’re $2USD each. Look at his signature line for a link to the thread.

I think that clemence’s board, that has direct connection to the core on the cathode side, should perform better than my boards, but of course when these leds arrive I will do an attempt to test these boards directly against each other with the same led. Smile

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Hmmmm, I think I have to send Maukka one extra NV4 for you to test. I have several 6V NV4 @ 6500K; R7000; D1200 rank, that I’m not interested at all. A perfect guinea pig for the dead match.

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Jerommel wrote:
We would have to know if both pads are doing the heat transfer to the star. if so, one could solder the LED on 2 half circles of copper and then put electrical isolation between it and the pill. That way you have direct thermal path to the star and a big surface with maybe kapton film and some goo on the star. This way you can avoid the fuss of re-designing the host flashlight. . [EDIT] Just learned that 90% of the heat transfer is through the cathode. But i think it’s a good option to isolate the star from the pill, not the LED from the star. [/EDIT]

Long before electrically neutral thermal pad introduced, all LED designed that way. Miniaturization and higher LED wattage has change the norms. But when space is not the limitation, non thermal pad LED and non DTP board usually cheaper to produce.

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djozz wrote:
DavidEF wrote:
BLF Member djozz has some very nice non-DTP boards for the Nichias without thermal pads. He had some made so he could test out his design with a new MCPCB manufacturer that showed up here a while back. He’s selling them now, at cost. They’re $2USD each. Look at his signature line for a link to the thread.

I think that clemence’s board, that has direct connection to the core on the cathode side, should perform better than my boards, but of course when these leds arrive I will do an attempt to test these boards directly against each other with the same led. Smile


Well, I don’t know what his design looks like, but I was thinking that electrically connecting the LED- to the board makes the whole thing useless for 99.99% of flashlights, because the driver regulates current on the negative side. Then ‘grounding’ the negative side of the LED makes the light single mode Turbo only! Shocked

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DavidEF wrote:
djozz wrote:
DavidEF wrote:
BLF Member djozz has some very nice non-DTP boards for the Nichias without thermal pads. He had some made so he could test out his design with a new MCPCB manufacturer that showed up here a while back. He’s selling them now, at cost. They’re $2USD each. Look at his signature line for a link to the thread.

I think that clemence’s board, that has direct connection to the core on the cathode side, should perform better than my boards, but of course when these leds arrive I will do an attempt to test these boards directly against each other with the same led. Smile


Well, I don’t know what his design looks like, but I was thinking that electrically connecting the LED- to the board makes the whole thing useless for 99.99% of flashlights, because the driver regulates current on the negative side. Then ‘grounding’ the negative side of the LED makes the light single mode Turbo only! Shocked
…so we should electrically insulate / isolate the MCPCB from the pill with a thin layer of something plus some thermal goo.
Should i make a crude drawing?

2Q19

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The current sense feedback is on the negative side of buck/boost drivers, to my knowledge. This is baaaad news. For the love of g0d, why have those @#$%ns chosen the cathode slug as the main heat sewage? They just weren't thinking in flashlights at all, which I can understand, but it could also have implications for “integrated” drivers. 

Of course, just an opinion. Time for BeO/diamond dielectric MCPCB's fellows. 

 

Cheers Party

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My MCPCB is designed for prototyping purpose. It will accommodate various optics and mounts – that’s why it’s big and thick without pre drilled holes. The design makes it easy for various testing, I can mill it down to circular 20mm or any shapes without risk to short any electrical traces because it’s shorted anyway.

To make it electrically neutral is EASY. You just put any commercially available dielectric tape/epoxy/glue between the MCPCB and the host. The heat concentration already spread to area 95 times the cathode size, less delta T. Even if we use dielectric material with only 3W/m.K (thin layer of course) thermal conductivity would still theoritically superior than those LED with thermal pad. The cathode makes metal – metal contact through copper and solder connection, less thermal resistance than through dielectric – solder connection from the LED thermal pad base. Unless the base of those LED with thermal pad is made from material with thermal conductivity superior than copper this design would be better for high power LED. But I can’t be really sure until mr Djozz done with his back to back test.

The best test is to compare it to XHP50 with equal sized DTP board.

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I can add the XHP50 test to the graph for comparison Smile

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The package is on the way to Maukka, should be there in a week. I added extra bare NV4 emitters from each type for you. There are total 13 emitters including 3 pcs NVSL219CT R9050.

PACKING LIST
——————
1. NV4W144AME (6V) – sm653E1200KR70 – 1 pc

2. NV4W144ARE (12V) – sm575E1000Lv9R9050 – 1 pc

3. NV4W144AME (6V) – sm575E1000KR9050 – 1 pc

4. NV4L144ARE (12V) – sm305E900Lv9R9050 – 1 pc

5. NV4L144AME (6V) – sm305E1100KR8000 – 1 pc

6. NV4W144AME (6V) – sm653E1200KR70
soldered on VirEnce DTP MCPCB – 1 pc

7. NV4W144ARE (12V) – sm575E1000Lv9R9050
soldered on VirEnce DTP MCPCB – 1 pc

8. NV4W144AME (6V) – sm575E1000KR9050
soldered on VirEnce DTP MCPCB – 1 pc

9. NV4L144ARE (12V) – sm305E900Lv9R9050
soldered on VirEnce DTP MCPCB – 1 pc

10. NV4L144AME (6V) – sm305E1100KR8000table(table#posts).
soldered on VirEnce DTP MCPCB – 1 pc

11. NVSL219CT – sm305D200L1R9050
soldered on SinkPad DTP MCPCB – 3 pcs

TOTAL: 13 ITEMS

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Thats a lot of work to test^ but can’t wait to see them!

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Texas_Ace wrote:
Thats a lot of work to test^ but can’t wait to see them!

Correct, given that emitter testing the way I do it (no automation whatsoever, which is labor intensive but also adds to the accuracy) takes several hours, and that I have a job and a family, I’m sure that I do not have the time to test all 13. But I will pick the emitters that will tell enough about the others that a complete picture can be derived.
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djozz wrote:
Texas_Ace wrote:
Thats a lot of work to test^ but can’t wait to see them!
Correct, given that emitter testing the way I do it (no automation whatsoever, which is labor intensive but also adds to the accuracy) takes several hours, and that I have a job and a family, I’m sure that I do not have the time to test all 13. But I will pick the emitters that will tell enough about the others that a complete picture can be derived.

I wish I live closer so I can bring the beers and coffee. Yes, I just need them all spectra tested by Maukka. Djozz only need to crash test any LED of his choice. As my/our gratitude to them, they can share the pre production Nichias (if Djozz haven’t kill them already …. Big Smile )

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Nichia’s are tough leds, hard to kill, but I will give killing a go for at least one, my PS goes up to 20A if needed Smile

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djozz wrote:
Nichia’s are tough leds, hard to kill, but I will give killing a go for at least one, my PS goes up to 20A if needed Smile
Shocked Shocked I hope you only kill the R70 then…. The rest have very nice colour. Perfect drops in for many flashlights

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