If I’m not mistaking that is or was the definition of a groupbuy.
But then we started to want more and better and we contacted the manufacturers and sellers to get improvements and even completely custom products.
Yeah, that’s not happening, I wouldn’t bet that addicts on flashlights will have self control when it comes to flashlight that they like. Just look at the “custom light for us” tip of threads, in there characteristics of the light and price are not related, folks keep offering less and less $ while adding things like DTP MCPCBs, copper this, copper that, AR coated lenses, specific emitters, expencive drivers, lighted switches…
That has been tried but MAP always seems to get in the way. It is impossible to keep it quiet except to do as Martin and Freeme and utilize codes. The only other way is to look for budget manufacturers that do not utilize MAP....and that stuff has become "run of the mill"
After contemplating about this issue for a while now this topic is an ideal place for my thoughts.
I think it is time for a new category. “experimental groupbuys”
I deeply disagree that drama coming from 3 (THREE!) possible shorting points and deviation from specs are “a select few tarnishing” and deem it a huge manufacturer issue that should be addressed. And CPF staff agrees on this.
Bugsy36, you seem to be under the impression that if a manufacturer of a groupbuy is not 100% backed by the team they will stop working with you.
And you seem to think 100% backing means saying things like “for this price no problem free, real quality product can be expected”, an opinion one can agree with and should be made clear by starting the groupbuy under the new category, “experimental groupbuys” so all is clear about intentions and aftersales.
Personally I rather have a manufacturer back off then a unsafe light produced and sold via this open to all forum.
I think all that great BLF input like the Bistro/Narsil software, driver designs, PD68 tailcap etc are very valuable and manufacturers should be happy to be able to get all the input from us combined with buzz, a dedicated grateful community and a minimum amount sold, this should be the foundation on a lower price and quality should be on par and lights made as specced. Needless to say I would not place the Q8 under the expermental groupbuys section 
Personally I think problems and faults coming from not following of changing the specs by vendor or manufacturer are the problem of a manufacturer and an organiser and all responsble should work on solutions, as the CPF staff is doing now (great job!)
I think problems coming from design or specs are the fault of the ones giving the specs. Hence the Q-team is carefully debating everything in the team and on BLF so we can hopefully prevent this from happening.
And that is where my idea for a new category comes into play.
EXPERIMENTAL GROUPBUYS
Be clear, this is experimental:
NO customer support
Buyers are to fix problems themselves
By entering the groupbuy participants wave any right on refunds
People enter knowing they are beta testers or joining a project with special hot rod lights that could cause issues but could deliver some very high rewards when fixed or in case it is a good product that does not need fixing.
The manufacturers Bugsy say back down now can rest assure is done the way it was for them, having a group of skilled beta tests for a reduced price is there.
NO, when this new type of groupbuys emerges it will be even better for manufacturers then before since drama is simply cut because of the new foundation of the groupbuy.
The rest who is not so brave or skilled can simply wait for an Astrolux/XXXX version to be sold with the kinks worked out or stay silent f that never comes since they had the chance to participate.
I think this can be a nice boost to the modding roots of BLF and create new creativity!
I like M4D M4X and Freeme’s group buys. A simple discount code, absolutely drama free. Zero chance of spec deviation or receiving a fake light. I’m sure that ANY improvement that can be done at the factory we can as well do it ourselves at home, be it emitter change, fet driver, spring bypass, etc. this way we keep the modding alive too. 
Miller....WTH are you posting? You are talking apples and oranges.
Miller, you’ve been on the potato wine again! :confounded:
You’re talking about light’s that aren’t available for sale because they’re uncomplete or faulty and so don’t work?
Yes apples and oranges Bugsy36, so treat them as such
We now have a rough separation between just two types of groupbuys:
((Semi-)commercial) groupbuys of a known existing product, least drama, least modding incentive
groupbuys for developing lights, lots of drame, lots of modding incentive
I am in total disagreement with your way at looking at supporting manufacturers and how drama is scaring them off.
I think that if a manufacturer cannot make lights according to specs or promised quality they better should run away from projects so good ones can step in.
So I propose we make them apples and oranges;
You can do groupbuys with an “it’s not a Acebeam, can’t happen for this price, people should be happy and not complain, lets keep manufacturers on board no matter the issues arising” attitude in the experimental groupbuys. You do it with manufacturers scared of drama in need of a team that wants buyers not speak up about problems but fixing issues themselves.
And our Q8 is done with a “we let a manufacturer make an excellent light, demand quality, offer insights, knowledge, testing, buzz and a minimum order amount based on our specs where manufacturer is responsible for building on par and we do not want to deal with parties not up to this or not seeing the good deal we are offering” attitude in the current groupbuy section. We choose manufacturers that can make the quality we strive for and correct the issues at hand and see that only participating in our projets is telling the world about their confidence, quality and good aftersales.
All happy and each operating in the realm both teams and manufacturers are most comfortable in and have different pros and cons in
And continue offering great incentives for modding and blf developments! it is much more compelling to develop a driver and software for 500 lights then for oneself and maybe a handfull of ultra high skilled modders.
Miller - As of yet...you have nothing but a concept. I hope it all comes together BUT PLEASE refrain from telling me about what is involved. I know full well what it takes and why. Your post has no place in this thread as it does not pertain to the OP about STOCK lights. Please ;)
Beta testing is work for the benefit of the producer and beta testers usually get their products for free or - in case of hardware - should get it at least for a price not above production cost. In case of the Cometa i would assume 20 $ as the upper limit. And if the product is not usable at all there should be a garanty for being refunded.
I see great relevance
MAP is making stock groupbuys harder and there are ways around it.
The discusion clearly got alsoabout adaptations on stck or developing lights So I am on topic
You claim that people speaking up about issues with development groupbuy lights are scaring off manufacturers, a new type next to the excisting groupbuys could solve that.
I do not tell you what is involved, I asked you via PM and in the Q8 thread for advice, because it seems you know what it takes yet have not heard anything (Off topic, too bad on all aspects great BLFers are helping greatly!)
I address things you did say in a constructive way with an idea that maybe could resolve the issues with groupbuys YOU bring up and YOU say you encouter. You have to tell more if you want better ideas, I can only work with what you choose to tell me
Part of the problem is the expectations… I tried to do a simple “custom” group buy with the Copper A01, yet members in the thread wanted to know what kind of copper, why there weren’t more /different modes and even questioned why it was a BLF special addition if the only thing changed was the body metal. Not faulting the members, just using this as example, in the end, we have a $20 AAA solid copper light, in only a few months from idea to sales…
Expectations that I laid out were just keep the same “guts” (driver, LED and reflector/lens) and just make the body in copper. I thought this was clear, bit still the expectation piranhas came around wanting more, or different options. To add one option, like a different tint LED, doubles the effort for all involved, the organizer, the vendor and the manufacturer. I got it, you cannot make everyone happy, but keeping the expectations realistic helps smooth things out and make the Group Buys go quicker…
I like the M4D M4X and Freeme GB’s for now, I was trying to bring about an AA version of the A01, but with the Cometa fracas, Manker and Banggood are not working together, so that is off… Yet with a bit of insulation, both my Cometas work fine, and I cannot buy the parts (cloned or not) for the price I paid….
Speaking of the expectation thing again, lets look at the Noctigon in the CPF Cometa… The spec said Noctigon, we got BLF white boards instead. Both of these are DTP copper boards. Both are $2-3 dollar parts… Yet there was whining about not having an Actual Noctigon. Who cares if they are both DTP COPPER and keep the LED from eating itself thermally. We know from the BLF A6, the white boards are good to 6+ amps… No need for the drama, but the expectation piranhas were stripping the Cometa cow and did not care because “they said” we would have an actual noctigon… if they had put the LED on a non DTP star, that would have been a real issue…
@The Miller- In your post above, according to your definition, if we change the title of the Cometa thread to EXPERIMENTAL Zoomie in cahoots with CPF Italia, suddenly all the drama can go away? Then, all of us are stuck with lights we cannot return them but as we signed up for the GB, this is the risk we took. Not getting your post, please explain how a name can rid the forum of drama, we need this…
Thanks for the insightful input!
And to answer your question, one cannot change the rules half way.
Yet if it was labelled experimental from the start with the set of rules I wrote here before we would have known fixing of issues could be needed.
We would havr known this before joining and instead of drama the solution thread could be a feast of people working on fixes, all estimated they could do it if the need became apparent when receiving theirs.
Cool, just making sure I got what you wrote. That would have helped on the Cometa buy as the expectations would have been tempered from the get go…
Thanks.
You would have also had a lot less people participate, and folks who expected to pay even less money due to the high probability of after-purchase costs. So I wouldn’t expect too many manufacturers to be jumping up and down to sell less lights for less money. Or if they do, I’d personally expect even poorer results than with the Cometa.
Not trying to be negative and I hope your idea works out, but I just see some big hurdles going in that direction. Maybe I’m wrong though…
Oh yes I agree probably less would participate.
And I would not at all feel like starting something in that category
I firmly believe manufacturers should be grateful when we let them make a special light.
I think it means offering a deal with great benefits for them (development, marketing, buzz and standing) and BLF (own ideas and ideals come to life on a larger scale)
I think organisers are responsible for clarity what is to he bought AMD what is to be build (like that sweet Astrolux A01 it all was clear as glass)
I also think manufacturers and vendors are responsible for delivering what was agreed on and good after sales.
And in the after sales process the organisers should be active, patient, friendly and willing to actively convey issues to manufacturer and vendor and pro active strive for resolutions in case of problems.
So this means automatically that I have no problem with people telling about faults in their products and would strive for good resolutions, just like the CPF Italia staff is doing now.
It is just that I have read before and today again in a review that some BLF special organisers lay blame at buyers for things that are the direct result of either organisers, manufacturer or vendors actions (or lack of).
This experimental idea for a new experimental tag is purely so that they can continue doing actions in the way they treat buyers without the negative consequences they convey coming from a few buyers with problems. So reducing drama for them and taking away the very thing they say manufacturers are backing out from.
If there was conveyed that a manufacturer backing out because of problems means good riddens I would not have thought of a solution since then me and them would be on the same page and there was no problem to resolve 
BTW my Uniquefire 1504 was a bit disappointing so I might just have stepped into the Cometa even with an experimental tag
I really hope I’m not a pain when I buy group buys! I had more to complian about The blf A6 then the Cometa. The x5 and x6 where good but by far the D80 was the best group buy I got what I expected. Also the A01 was good except pissed me of that they couldn’t aline the Led some thing so simple but it was cheap so I’m not expecting the world.
Now I know the only way to ger what I want is to make it or buy better brands. aka stock lights from like nitecore!
I get the aggravation on the A01 LED not being aligned. When I look at something like that, I try for a totality of circumstances approach to lessen any aggravations.
Totality factors:
Under $10 shipped.
True firefly mode with 100 hour runtime on AAA, up to 100 lumen high.
Nichia 93 CRI 4000K emitter (not in ANY other stock light)
Colors I want, including new ones like Orange.
Head not glued.
Aggravation factors:
LED not centered well in 30-50% of received lights. (my ratio in 10+ lights, multiple 3-4 piece orders)
Fix for aggravation: Possible with pointy tweezers and 1-2 minutes fiddle time due to non glued head….
Not going to surrender my choice to aggravation in this case…. Not with it for what I am getting…
Just my view, and not knocking your frustration, trying to explain my Zen with issues like this.
The lights cost me $28 each Australian almost same price as the A6. I bought the copper and i bought two i gave one to my best mate. I am not having a go at any one! except maybe atsrolux i love the light and the finish is awesome way better then my X5 that came with marks all over it but some thing so simple kind of aggravates me lol! I will be honest this light is staying in packet so it stays pretty. I did use it with a 10440 it handles heat way better then the singfire SE348 and is brighter also!