When will we see first flashlight for the new 20700 cell type?

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Aggressor
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When will we see first flashlight for the new 20700 cell type?

As you may or may not know, new Tesla/Panasonic Gigafactory-1 will start producing cells in a month or two, and when it comes to full capacity this single factory will produce as much cell capacity as the current worldwide production combined. As you also may or may not know, this new factory will produce cells in a new format: slightly larger 20700 instead of traditional 18650.

So, when are we going to see flashlights for the new 20700 cell type?
Any existing 18650 flashlights large enough to accept 20700 cell?

Edited by: Aggressor on 08/24/2016 - 09:12
The Miller
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A lot of 26650 cells are longer so figure a lot of 26650 lights accepts these.

Though how likely is it they will sell them to the general public?

Wonder why this size though…

Aggressor
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I have no doubt they will quickly find their way to the general public. Just like, for example, readily available Sony VTC6 cells did, despite Sony’s vocal objections.

Single cell 26650 lights are too fat for my taste, but 20700 cell would not increase size by much compared to 18650. Since it would also add 30-35% capacity, personally I am looking forward to 20700 flashlights.

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Now, we need someone to also make a 20350 cell, so those 20700 flashlights that are yet to be made can also be modded for ~6V operation. Cool

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I’ll be curious as to how soon we see 20700 cells in hobbiests’ hands. Based on the graphic a top-of-the-line 20700 cell could have up to 4200 mAh capacity. Are there any current 1 cell lights w/ enough ‘meat’ in the battery tube to be bored out to 20 mm?

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Aggressor wrote:
I have no doubt they will quickly find their way to the general public. Just like, for example, readily available Sony VTC6 cells did, despite Sony’s vocal objections.

Single cell 26650 lights are too fat for my taste, but 20700 cell would not increase size by much compared to 18650. Since it would also add 30-35% capacity, personally I am looking forward to 20700 flashlights.


If a 26650 light is too fat for your taste, then your selection is going to be very limited indeed. However, any light that is made to take both 18650 and 3x AAA in a holder should be big enough. Otherwise, if you can find one that’s made to take 18650, and has a thick tube, you could possibly bore it out for ~20mm cells yourself.

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Aggressor wrote:
Single cell 26650 lights are too fat for my taste, but 20700 cell would not increase size by much compared to 18650. Since it would also add 30-35% capacity, personally I am looking forward to 20700 flashlights.

The volume of a 26650 cell is roughly TWICE the volume of an 18650 cell. And so could be the energy-content (roughly). But the energy-content of the best 26650 cell’s is not even 50% larger than that of an 18650 cell. The increase in capacity will only occur if everybody agrees 20700 is the new industry standard and everybody puts his shoulders to the wheel.

I always think long and hard before I say something really stupid.

Aggressor
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Henk4U2 wrote:
Aggressor wrote:
Single cell 26650 lights are too fat for my taste, but 20700 cell would not increase size by much compared to 18650. Since it would also add 30-35% capacity, personally I am looking forward to 20700 flashlights.

The volume of a 26650 cell is roughly TWICE the volume of an 18650 cell. And so could be the energy-content (roughly). But the energy-content of the best 26650 cell’s is not even 50% larger than that of an 18650 cell. The increase in capacity will only occur if everybody agrees 20700 is the new industry standard and everybody puts his shoulders to the wheel.

Did you miss the word Panasonic? Or the part which explains that this single factory will produce as much cell capacity as the current worldwide production combined?

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Henk4U2 wrote:
Aggressor wrote:
Single cell 26650 lights are too fat for my taste, but 20700 cell would not increase size by much compared to 18650. Since it would also add 30-35% capacity, personally I am looking forward to 20700 flashlights.

The volume of a 26650 cell is roughly TWICE the volume of an 18650 cell. And so could be the energy-content (roughly). But the energy-content of the best 26650 cell’s is not even 50% larger than that of an 18650 cell. The increase in capacity will only occur if everybody agrees 20700 is the new industry standard and everybody puts his shoulders to the wheel.


No, we don’t need everybody, just somebody. Panasonic already has high energy chemistry, so they could pull it off easily without anybody else’s help. The reason none of the other size cells have as great energy density as 18650 isn’t because there aren’t enough people trying, it’s because there aren’t the right people doing it. The big guys with all the best technology only make 18650 and 18500 (and soon 20700) cells. That’s how it works. Everybody else has inferior capacity, even in 18650 cells.

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From my reading this new size battery is being designed for power packs for the automotive industry and especially Tesla who will have the world’s largest battery manufacturing facility in Sparks, Nevada.

The flashlight industry is a very small user of either 18650 or 20700 batteries. The new battery for our needs is far off.

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I am very curious to see where this new factory goes with battery technology.

The next 1-2 years should be very interesting that is for sure.

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Let´s wait and see. “High energy chemistry” and perceived economies of scale in one move is no small step for man.

I always think long and hard before I say something really stupid.

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Texas_Ace wrote:
I am very curious to see where this new factory goes with battery technology.

The next 1-2 years should be very interesting that is for sure.


+1

The new Tesla facility is surrounded in secrecy; the next five years should bring new advancements and hopefully one’s that would even surprise many of us here on this forum.

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It will be cool to see what happens, but I sure hope 20700 doesn’t replace 18650 for the major manufacturers. I want better and better battery technology for the lights I already have. I don’t want 90% of the lights I own to become outdated because you are stuck with old battery tech.

I don’ think that would happen, but you never know.

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Aggressor
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sidecross wrote:
From my reading this new size battery is being designed for power packs for the automotive industry and especially Tesla who will have the world’s largest battery manufacturing facility in Sparks, Nevada.

The flashlight industry is a very small user of either 18650 or 20700 batteries. The new battery for our needs is far off.

18650 batteries we are currently using were not designed specifically for flashlight use either.

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Aggressor wrote:
sidecross wrote:
From my reading this new size battery is being designed for power packs for the automotive industry and especially Tesla who will have the world’s largest battery manufacturing facility in Sparks, Nevada.

The flashlight industry is a very small user of either 18650 or 20700 batteries. The new battery for our needs is far off.

18650 batteries we are currently using were not designed specifically for flashlight use either.


+1 That was my first thought when I read that post.

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If capacity is all they were after, which I doubt since they'll also benefit from simplified manufacturing protocols, I'd have preferred to see them chosing the 26650 format. The reason I see here behind the 20700 format is that it's area/volume quotient (cooling, power delivery) is not so far off the 18650's one. 

 

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Tesla is spending craploads on R & D to increase the power of these cells. Given the rush to produce, they have most likely not incorporated even a part of the changes they are looking at in the lab into the finished product yet. Interesting times indeed, I’m looking forward to it. Musk quoted about the speed improvements based on the new battery packs from yesterdays BBC article: the cars “… hailed the upgraded battery as a profound milestone….will do 0-60mph in 2.5 seconds”

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-37171455

Given the rush to production I think it’s possible we’ll see availability within a year. Hard to say as none of us know the production details of the battery’s. That means that 4-5 years might not be unreasonable either, but I doubt it will be that long. They have a bunch of pre-ordered cars they need to build first ASAP though.

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A few years ago, I had read that Tesla would have chosen the 22650, to replace 18650. have changed their idea.
I like more the 22650 to replace the 18650; It is not fat like an 26650 and can reach (and archieve) good capacities …I think

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It might not make sense in terms of capacity/cell but if the added capacity brings down the number needed then it makes sense, especially for vehicles using thousands of them. Then there’s also the power wall technology that will demand a huge number of cells.

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The Miller wrote:
A lot of 26650 cells are longer so figure a lot of 26650 lights accepts these.

Though how likely is it they will sell them to the general public?

Wonder why this size though…

Quote:
Don Elon: “It really comes from the first principles of physics and economics. That’s the way we try to analyze everything. To say like if no cell existed in the world, what size should it be? What is the size that would achieve the product characteristics we’re looking for, but would be fundamentally optimal? 18650 is not optimal.”

http://cleantechnica.com/2016/07/30/3-critical-keys-elon-jb-brought-batt...

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So, do we stock up on 18650's or sell off our 18650 flashlights as quick as we can, while they are still worth something? smile

Ohhh - maybe the new BLF Q8 can be tweaked to support 4 20700's? smilecool

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Yes Tom let’s go for a thick walled tube Wink

But with the demand from cars , build by car manufacturer I think it will be a while before 20700 get available for us
Cool they spec 700 maybe the longer 18650 and 26659 cells will be labeled 18700 and 26700 soon!

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The 18650 battery will be around for a long time.

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Tom E wrote:

So, do we stock up on 18650’s or sell off our 18650 flashlights as quick as we can, while they are still worth something? smile


Ohhh – maybe the new BLF Q8 can be tweaked to support 4 20700’s? smilecool


Only Tesla is committing to a new size, so unless everyone else is going out of business we are safe.

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I could be wrong, but I believe the “breakthrough” Musk was talking about is the new cooling system that will be utilized, more so than the individual battery itself. I think it’s the problem Honda is having right now with their new hybrids. The cooling system is poorly designed, the cells heat up and lose capacity, thus less than expected fuel mileage. Note in the BBC article Musk says, “in cool weather, a driver could travel from San Francisco to Los Angeles – a nearly 400 mile drive – without recharging”

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Tesla and Panasonic are committing, that is... We just don't know how committed Panasonic is, and if others will follow.

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Maybe they are hollow like the Apple cells recently discussed (with the hollow space for cooling.)

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Can't wait to see how it develops. Some of the 18650's are already close to 20700 dimensions Wink I believe most torch walls could be bored out by a milimeter without a problem to fit the new cell if necessary and worth the effort in terms of gained capacity.

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sidecross wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBpLBMoBUTg&index=3&list=PL1t6JkcqG9Nkaq...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmG1p6EuF3s&list=PL1t6JkcqG9NkaqDf0Txcfy...

First link is about “graphene batteries” and is surprisingly un informative. I have searched and not found any info about what this battery actually is. They do have very impressive claims. I would not believe them, however. Battery “breakthroughs” generally do not happen. There is incremental development and improvement. If this particular graphene battery technology was really promising, lots of labs and institutions would be developing it.

Second link is old, and about the development of a type of Li ion battery, LiFePO4, that A123 pioneered.

The cells that will be made at the gigafactory will very likely be traditional Li ion chemistry.

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