we need to demand that mfg's use 219C and stop 219B emitters agreed?

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Ronin42
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we need to demand that mfg's use 219C and stop 219B emitters agreed?
219B is what you prefer
44% (12 votes)
219C is what you prefer (and expect from mfg's)
56% (15 votes)
Total votes: 27

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things would be a lot more complicated than they already are.”
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Edited by: Ronin42 on 10/05/2016 - 20:43
hIKARInoob
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I. Love. My. Meteors. 6700 lumens of 5000K Nichia 219C goodness Smile

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Mmm once the 90cri 219c is widely available, maybe.

Until then, why?

I don’t expect myself to ever use another 219c now that the XP-G3 is here

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pilotdog68 wrote:
Mmm once the 90cri 219c is widely available, maybe.

Until then, why?

+1

Ronin42
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djozz review sold me on how much better the 219C is over the 219B.

i am trying to keep things simple (maybe too simple) never tried cree xp series.

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219c is certainly brighter than the 219b, but if brightness is your goal cree is your horse.

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pilotdog68 wrote:
Mmm once the 90cri 219c is widely available, maybe.

Until then, why?

I don’t expect myself to ever use another 219c now that the XP-G3 is here


This.

If I want CRI, I want a 219B. If I want lumens, I want a XP-L. If I want throw, I want a XP-L HI or XP-G2/XP-G3. The 219C is in an awkward middle ground until it gets better CRI. It might have a nice niche in 1xAA or 1xAAA boost driver lights though, thanks to its lower Vf. But for li-ion, the 219C’s lower Vf can actually be a liability.

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pilotdog68 wrote:
219c is certainly brighter than the 219b, but if brightness is your goal cree is your horse.

Jack of all trades but master of none

Interesting. Normally I’m into the master of something. However, with the Meteor, I fell for the jack of all trades. It doesn’t happen often, but perhaps it’s also because I like Nichia; it’s got a cool factor. The lumen output compared to the 219B is also significant, and not incremental.

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don’t get me wrong, it’s definitely nice. I have a few lights with 219c’s and they will be keeping them, but the low Vf of the XP-G3 has taken over that niche for me now.

Sorry to poop on your topic, Ronin

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To get back on the topic. The Manker MK34 uses 219B emitters. I read (on BLF) that Nichia simply wasn’t able to supply the large quantity of 219C emitters… Apparantly that was no problem for Noctigon because of much lower production numbers…

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excellent answer.

i revisted mtn electronics and to make more sense i really need to add cri designations.

i understand that for 90cri 219B is the option. i also see a bunch of rosey to green tint ranges and so we need to ask the mfgs to be more zpecfic about what they mean by 219B is is 70, 80 or 90 cri and what kelven temp (they seem to be doing a better job of this)

unless i miss my guess, xp-g3 in the 4300-4900 Kelvin range are hard to find included in flashligts. what is the designation anyway?

in xml’s it would be somting like 3d-5a maybe 4a being just a hint rosey. to get just a hint rosey seems to be easier to hit with a nichia.

i think xp series have a different code system.

any preferences?
do xp fit on an xml like the nichias do?

sorry for the xp series noob questions.

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Well, you have CRI, and you have the designation for the colour temperature. But I’m not sure (I’m a noob) whether the tint is designated at all. Isn’t that something that is just being observed by end users?

Here’s food for thought Mr. Ronin:

- Noctigon Meteor 219B (5000K 90+CRI): 4450 lumen
- Noctigon Meteor XP-G2 5700K: 7400 lumen
- Manker MK34 219B (unknown CRI): 6500 lumen
- Manker MK34 XP-G3 6500K: 8000 lumen

Now for the cool white tint, the Manker produces 8000 lumens compared to 7400 lumens for the Noctigon. Slightly different colour temperature, but ah well. So you’re going from 7400 lumens to 8000 lumens, which is like a feasable increase going from XP-G2 to XP-G3, assuming you have comparable performing drivers.
But if you look at the Nichia variants, you’re going from 4450 lumens for the Noctigon to a whopping 6500 lumens for the Manker! How is that possible? So, is it possible that the Manker is using like a 70+ CRI 219B emitter, if that exists (I really don’t know)?
Is this odd or what?

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For me, until the 219C Hi CRI’s can be found in 4000k I will stick with 219B’s and the XP-G3’s. Blinding output is not always my goal, if it were I would build with Cree 1A’s and be done with it.

EDC rotation:
FW1A, LH351D 4000k (second favorite)
FW3A, LH351D 3500k
FW3A, SST20 FD2 4000k
FW3A, Nichia 4000k sw40 r9080 (favorite light!)
FW3A, Cree XP-L Hi 5A3
Emisar D4V2, SST20 4000k
S2+, XM-L2 T6 4C

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Ronin42 wrote:
in xml’s it would be somting like 3d-5a …
i think xp series have a different code system.

do xp fit on an xml like the nichias do?

Cree has two classification systems for white tints, and they apply regardless of the emitter family. One is the fine-grained system we normally use on BLF, 0-8 plus a letter (usually A/B/C/D), where 3D is a nice slightly rosey 4900K. The other is a more coarse-grained designation used in their spec sheets. Here’s the fine-grained one:

The more coarse designations are things like: Z8, E8, F8, Z7, E7, F7, Z6, E6, F6, Z5, E5, F5, E4, F4, E3, E2, E1, 50, 53, 51 (in order from warm to cool). For example, a XP-L HI 5000K 75CRI emitter is code XPLAWT-H0-0000-000LV20E3.

Cree denotes pad size and emitter type in its product names. The left half is the pad size and right half is the emitter type. So, XP-G and XP-L use the same pad size, while XP-L and XM-L use the same emitter type. XP-series dies do not fit on XM-series pads, or vice-versa. The Nichia 219 fits an XP-series pad, so it’s inter-changeable with XP-C, XP-E, XP-G, and XP-L. It doesn’t work on an XM-L pad.

The brightness bins tend to vary per emitter type, generally based on the current and temperature used for the tests. So, XP-L goes from T3-T6, U2-U6, V2-V6… while XP-C/XP-E/XP-G uses a different scale — J, K2, K3, M2, M3, N2-N4, P2-P4, Q2-Q5, R2-R5, S2-S4.

All this is in the Cree spec sheets for more detail.

Nichia uses completely different systems for their emitter classification.

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Ronin42 wrote:
djozz review sold me on how much better the 219C is over the 219B.

i am trying to keep things simple (maybe too simple) never tried cree xp series.


Better? How come? What is better? The whole point of the B version is good color reproduction CRI, and on the 4000-4500K versions the excellent CRI combined with great R9 values. That was the whole point of Nichia 219b.
The C version is in no way competitor to the B, and is a competitor to the XPG2/XPG3 emitters. And a good competitor, too. But it has no CRI, has no good R9 values etc. It is completely different target.

I am sure the 219c 4000-4500K high CRI high R9, will be an excellent competitor to the 219b, but until then we can only wait.

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Vf of 219c is to be lower than 219b, so you can have more output when battery runs low.
That’s why we want 219c
But xp-g3 also has low Vf and is available in high CRI too.

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hIKARInoob wrote:
Well, you have CRI, and you have the designation for the colour temperature. But I’m not sure (I’m a noob) whether the tint is designated at all. Isn’t that something that is just being observed by end users?

Here’s food for thought Mr. Ronin:

- Noctigon Meteor 219B (5000K 90+CRI): 4450 lumen
- Noctigon Meteor XP-G2 5700K: 7400 lumen
- Manker MK34 219B (unknown CRI): 6500 lumen
- Manker MK34 XP-G3 6500K: 8000 lumen

Now for the cool white tint, the Manker produces 8000 lumens compared to 7400 lumens for the Noctigon. Slightly different colour temperature, but ah well. So you’re going from 7400 lumens to 8000 lumens, which is like a feasable increase going from XP-G2 to XP-G3, assuming you have comparable performing drivers.
But if you look at the Nichia variants, you’re going from 4450 lumens for the Noctigon to a whopping 6500 lumens for the Manker! How is that possible? So, is it possible that the Manker is using like a 70+ CRI 219B emitter, if that exists (I really don’t know)?
Is this odd or what?

The MK34 numbers are inflated not sure why you take them as absolute numbers.
Check out some real output numbers:
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/49027

It is between 6200 to 6800lm for max. 20seconds no matter if it is cooled or not cooled.
Considering it is using XP-G3 with much lower Vf’s that the XP-G2 I find that max output rather underwhelming for 20sec max.
My 219B-V1 M43 with only 4450lumens does 20Kcd even after 30seconds (measured myself even if rating is the same), their XP-G3 is claimed to do 20kcd, may not be true just like the max lumen output claims.

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TK,

Thank you for your

well perfect response Smile

And thank you to the other posters for good info.

I bought a few Xtar H2 headlamps

I see that they came with an XPG2 (something)

I immediately swapped the emitters out for DJozz bulk euro offering of 219C 5000k emitters I love the tint. and plenty bright enough for a headlamp.

maybe I just got lucky. that dc fix is also the ticket for headlamps

Thanks all for the input

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things would be a lot more complicated than they already are.”
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Hikelite wrote:
hIKARInoob wrote:
Well, you have CRI, and you have the designation for the colour temperature. But I’m not sure (I’m a noob) whether the tint is designated at all. Isn’t that something that is just being observed by end users?

Here’s food for thought Mr. Ronin:

- Noctigon Meteor 219B (5000K 90+CRI): 4450 lumen
- Noctigon Meteor XP-G2 5700K: 7400 lumen
- Manker MK34 219B (unknown CRI): 6500 lumen
- Manker MK34 XP-G3 6500K: 8000 lumen

Now for the cool white tint, the Manker produces 8000 lumens compared to 7400 lumens for the Noctigon. Slightly different colour temperature, but ah well. So you’re going from 7400 lumens to 8000 lumens, which is like a feasable increase going from XP-G2 to XP-G3, assuming you have comparable performing drivers.
But if you look at the Nichia variants, you’re going from 4450 lumens for the Noctigon to a whopping 6500 lumens for the Manker! How is that possible? So, is it possible that the Manker is using like a 70+ CRI 219B emitter, if that exists (I really don’t know)?
Is this odd or what?

The MK34 numbers are inflated not sure why you take them as absolute numbers.
Check out some real output numbers:
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/49027

It is between 6200 to 6800lm for max. 20seconds no matter if it is cooled or not cooled.
Considering it is using XP-G3 with much lower Vf’s that the XP-G2 I find that max output rather underwhelming for 20sec max.
My 219B-V1 M43 with only 4450lumens does 20Kcd even after 30seconds (measured myself even if rating is the same), their XP-G3 is claimed to do 20kcd, may not be true just like the max lumen output claims.

Thanks. I initially assume manufacturer’s ratings are accurate; the xp-g3 figures seemed plausible. But it seems it’s not the case with Manker. I want to see more figures, but at this point it doesn’t look good. I wouldn’t be surprised if other figures are even lower than what Budda has measured…

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mdeni wrote:
Ronin42 wrote:
djozz review sold me on how much better the 219C is over the 219B.

i am trying to keep things simple (maybe too simple) never tried cree xp series.


Better? How come? What is better? The whole point of the B version is good color reproduction CRI, and on the 4000-4500K versions the excellent CRI combined with great R9 values. That was the whole point of Nichia 219b.
The C version is in no way competitor to the B, and is a competitor to the XPG2/XPG3 emitters. And a good competitor, too. But it has no CRI, has no good R9 values etc. It is completely different target.

I am sure the 219c 4000-4500K high CRI high R9, will be an excellent competitor to the 219b, but until then we can only wait.

I think Djozz was able to provide us with 219C in 5000k with a CRI of 83+ to me these look very good. YMMV

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Very interesting discussion.

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Is the better runtime of C worth our preferred tint of B?

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Bardo219 wrote:
Is the better runtime of C worth our preferred tint of B?

After a few years of 219C and a few lights using it, I’d generally say … no.

Even in the year 2020, I use 219B whenever I want the beam to look really good. My 219C lights have all been fairly disappointing.

There are also newer options now, like LH351D and SST-20. However, these have also failed to replace the 219B… they’re just way too green at the low levels I use. XP-G3 looked promising at first but, like most of Cree’s latest designs, they make an ugly rainbow beam when focused. They’re nice behind a strong diffuser, like in a light bulb… but not in a flashlight beam.

So I typically try to get either 219B or XP-L HI in every light. Both are old now, but they haven’t been replaced by anything better yet.

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Certainly not.
Variety is the spice of life.

Maybe you also wish everyone on the planet drove a Volvo?

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