New Convoy C8 – Clearly better

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ToyKeeper
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patmurris wrote:
The new driver sounds nice… However i’m concerned about PWM especially in moon mode?

To make the output as stable as possible no matter what type of 7135 chips (or how many) are used, moon mode has slow PWM. I’ll have to measure to be sure, but moon (0.1%) is either 1 kHz or 2 kHz. This also means it’ll be up around 0.8 lumens instead of the usual 0.2 lm, but that’s as close as I could get it with this hardware.

The low (1%) mode runs at 8 kHz (to make it more stable), but this is still 2X the speed of the older nanjg drivers.

Everything else runs at 16 kHz, about 4X as fast as the older nanjg drivers.

The Miller wrote:
And what is the voltage for LPV to kick in (now it is a bit too high for my liking in Convoys so if that is reduced to (<)3V this looks like an awesome driver I will order more from (preferring longer runtimes over a shorter extra brightness))

I had LVP set to 2.8V initially, but during tests I couldn’t get it to trigger before the cell’s built-in protection went off. So, it’s now set to step down when the cell gets under 3.0V. If it stays that low even on the lowest mode, it’ll eventually shut off the emitter and go into a low-power standby mode.

Serp, Tangra wrote:
why not used MOSFET for DD?

I saw poject driver in which every 7135 was switch on end off individual. So in this case there is no PWM and efficiency is higher in low modes because work as many 7135 as neccecary for each level.
Is there any problem using this driver in new Convoy C8.

The problem is that new driver hardware was beyond the scope and budget of this project, and Convoy doesn’t have a lot of resources to develop it or get the hardware produced right now. So, the driver is the same hardware as before, but with new firmware to improve it as much as possible. The nanjg drivers are actually pretty nice, and inexpensive, so they work pretty well.

Maybe in the future sometime Convoy can get new driver hardware, but not yet.

Also, what pilotdog68 said earlier. Smile

Lightbringer wrote:
Question about moonlight/firefly mode, though… Does it ever “stick” off when hot? I’ve heard that when you’ve got the light on high and things heat up, that sometimes if you switch to firefly mode, it just won’t light at all until it cools down (fine in higher modes, though). Which is why… I think it’s in the QLite driver source… there’s a certain minimum (6/256) that you have to set firefly mode to reliably turn on.

Might have to do with the capacitance of 8 parallelled 7135s, too. Little skinny pulses might not be enough to bump them on.

And I’m wondering about PWM flickering when it’s set that low.


The reason for the minimum of 6/255 (or 7, or 8, or 3, or …) is because the 7135 chips take a few “frames” to open, like a slow-moving door. They’re not as fast as a FET. This is exactly the reason why moon mode runs at a slower speed.

The minimum usable pulse duration varies with the number and type of 7135 chips, the type of LED, the battery voltage and brand, etc, and those factors are all variable for this project. It could be anywhere from 2 to 16 7135 chips, several types of LED, a variety of hosts, and so on. So the most hardware-sensitive aspects were optimized for stability, which means slower PWM on moon.

As usual, the sources are available for anyone who wants to modify it. Smile

http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~toykeeper/flashlight-firmware/convoy/files/...

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Bisvoy Big Smile

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Mistro

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Convoy Advanced Firmware

Sounds interesting for the audience…

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ToyKeeper wrote:
Any preferences?

According to google, bistro is “a small restaurant”. Is that the meaning of “bistro” you went for, or does it have another meaning?

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Hopefully he’ll send RMM some hosts!!

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ToyKeeper wrote:

So far it’s called bistro-mini, because it’s based on bistro but half the size. People have told me this is a bad name though, so I’m considering some others…

Any preferences?


Personally, I think that is a great name or some version of it. Thumbs Up
Bistro-mini <> Mini-Bistro <> Mini-B

Now to “brain storm” a bit………… Hmmm…….
Or for a “Convoy” shout out……. add a C. Bistro-miniC <> Mini-Bistro C <> Mini-BC

Mini-BisCon <> BisCon-Mini <> TK-Mini-BisCon <> Mini-BisCon-TK = Mini-BistroConvoy-ToyKeeper
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But after deliberation……..
THIS one gets my vote……….. Thumbs Up

TK-MiniBisCon = ToyKeeper-MiniBistroConvoy
Shortening it to TK-MBC would work too. Wink

EDITED for spelling correction.

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J-Dub74 wrote:

Mode groups: (output is approximate)
  1. 0.1%, 1%, 10%, 35%, 100%, strobe, biking, battery-check
  2. 0.1%, 1%, 10%, 35%, 100%
  3. 100%, 35%, 10%, 1%, 0.1%
  4. 1%, 20%, 100%, strobe, biking, battery-check, SOS
  5. 1%, 20%, 100%
  6. 100%, 20%, 1%
  7. 0.1%, 1%, 10%, 50%, strobe, biking, battery-check, SOS
  8. 0.1%, 1%, 10%, 50%
  9. 50%, 10%, 1%, 0.1%
  10. 1%, 10%, 35%, 100%
  11. 100%, 20%, strobe
  12. 100% only

Disclaimer: I did my best to format this for easy BLF viewing. If I messed anything up…I’ll fix it. Smile


I have a question or two, and please do not take them as a complaint; they are not. Smile

1. Why is there no mode between 50% & 100% in any of the groups?

2. Could that be done?

You never know how a horse will pull until you hook him up to a heavy load. / Paul "Bear" Bryant ~/~\~ "Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast"

   I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. / Captain Woodrow Call _ Lonesome Dove _/\_  It's not dying I'm talking about, it's living. / Captain Gus McCrae _ Lonesome Dove  Rudy, you can't have no idea how little I care. / Monte Walsh _/\_  Why monitor a problem if you don't fix it? / LL _/\_  "Don’t expect a Porsche when you pay for a Pinto"./ RobertB_BLF          "What’s the worst thing that could happen? Never hurts to think about it"./ 'hank'_BLF _/\_ KMA=KeepMovingAhead <> FTR=ForTheRecord <> FU=ForeverUpward _/\                          Rudeness Level /\_ _/\ {width:70%} /\ _ /\TAB/\ LightWiki /\ LED Tint Chart /\ LED Tint Picture /\ BatteryU /\ TheOriginal                                          *Lights_Save $$$$* _/_/ Xlamp size chart \_\_ Flashaholic? Need Professional Help???   wink

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Wow, nice job with this, TK & Simon! 

Yes, 50-100% can be done but doesn't really show much of a difference. The highest I would typically go is 40%, sometimes 50%, as do most high mode count lights - just doesn't make enough difference. Best usage is a spread in the lower levels.

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Tom E wrote:

Wow, nice job with this, TK & Simon! 


Yes, 50-100% can be done but doesn’t really show much of a difference. The highest I would typically go is 40%, sometimes 50%, as do most high mode count lights – just doesn’t make enough difference. Best usage is a spread in the lower levels.


OK, thanks Tom E. I appreciate the info. Smile

You never know how a horse will pull until you hook him up to a heavy load. / Paul "Bear" Bryant ~/~\~ "Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast"

   I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. / Captain Woodrow Call _ Lonesome Dove _/\_  It's not dying I'm talking about, it's living. / Captain Gus McCrae _ Lonesome Dove  Rudy, you can't have no idea how little I care. / Monte Walsh _/\_  Why monitor a problem if you don't fix it? / LL _/\_  "Don’t expect a Porsche when you pay for a Pinto"./ RobertB_BLF          "What’s the worst thing that could happen? Never hurts to think about it"./ 'hank'_BLF _/\_ KMA=KeepMovingAhead <> FTR=ForTheRecord <> FU=ForeverUpward _/\                          Rudeness Level /\_ _/\ {width:70%} /\ _ /\TAB/\ LightWiki /\ LED Tint Chart /\ LED Tint Picture /\ BatteryU /\ TheOriginal                                          *Lights_Save $$$$* _/_/ Xlamp size chart \_\_ Flashaholic? Need Professional Help???   wink

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teacher wrote:
1. Why is there no mode between 50% & 100% in any of the groups?

It’s not a linear scale.

The stated outputs are the power level, which can be misleading. Throw distance follows an inverse square law, while perceived brightness tends to follow something like an inverse cube. So, there’s usually not much point having a mode between 50% and 100% power.

For example, let’s say it puts out 1000 lumens and does 50 kcd lux. Here are the resulting levels in more detail:

  • 0.1% power: 1 lm, throws 14 m, brightness 10/100
  • 1% power: 10 lm, throws 45 m, brightness 21/100
  • 10% power: 100 lm, throws 141 m, brightness 46/100
  • 35% power: 350 lm, throws 264 m, brightness 70/100
  • 100% power: 1000 lm, throws 447 m, brightness 100/100

So, to a human eye, the 35% level actually looks like it’s 70% as bright as the 100% level, and it throws 59% as far. Does the mode spacing make more sense now?

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It could be just me but my eyes can hardly notice a big difference between 1.5A with 3A, but 600mA with 1.5A the difference is huge.

In my H17F equipped lights the high mode is 1.5A then it jumps to turbo 5A+, and it only feels like twice as bright.

50% is great for a high mode on a 2.8A driver, this way it can run for extended periods without overheating.

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Bist-Con driver

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I had to take a few hours to get some work done and I have more to do but I’ll try to pop in here and there.

Thank you ToyKeeper for popping in to answer the questions that only you can. I’m absolutely thrilled with what you created for Convoy within the constraints of the current hardware.

As for the questions about modes between 50% and 100%, as I think a few others have mentioned already they simply don’t make much sense in application.

Sure it sounds great on paper but when you actually see the difference between 50% and 100% it’s not what you would expect. The visual or perceived difference between 50% and 100% is much closer to 10% than the 50% you’d expect to see. Light output just doesn’t work with standard mathematics where 5+5=10. In the lumen world 5+5=maybe 7?

I may be using a very wrong analogy but hopefully some are getting where I’m going. Others here can explain this way better than I can. It was ToyKeeper and Dale that showed me what I didn’t know about this topic. Truly proper mode spacing is wonderful. I’m not going to embarrass myself by trying to further explain what I only partially understand.

I do believe I have a fairly good grasp on what the masses want though and I’m doing my best to translate that into flashlight reality through Convoy with plenty of help from my friends here at BLF.

Smile
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Oh and since TK threw the “Jared Stinks” suggestion out there (yes, it was my own suggestion) I’ll throw in my own suggestions. Silly

“Convoy ToyKit”
“ToyKit”
“Convoy Kitchen”

I also see now that while I was trying to explain the 50%/100% thing and doing a bad job of it ToyKeeper came in and explained it beautifully. Smile Bravo once again. Thumbs Up
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Bisconti

J-Dub, do you know when the new looks and firmware will be coming to the S2+?

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ToyKeeper wrote:
teacher wrote:
1. Why is there no mode between 50% & 100% in any of the groups?

It’s not a linear scale.

The stated outputs are the power level, which can be misleading. Throw distance follows an inverse square law, while perceived brightness tends to follow something like an inverse cube. So, there’s usually not much point having a mode between 50% and 100% power.

For example, let’s say it puts out 1000 lumens and does 50 kcd lux. Here are the resulting levels in more detail:

  • 0.1% power: 1 lm, throws 14 m, brightness 10/100
  • 1% power: 10 lm, throws 45 m, brightness 21/100
  • 10% power: 100 lm, throws 141 m, brightness 46/100
  • 35% power: 350 lm, throws 264 m, brightness 70/100
  • 100% power: 1000 lm, throws 447 m, brightness 100/100

So, to a human eye, the 35% level actually looks like it’s 70% as bright as the 100% level, and it throws 59% as far. Does the mode spacing make more sense now?


Thank you so much for taking the time to explain this!
To answer your question, yes it makes a lot of sense now. It is the first time I have really even halfway understood it. Smile
Thank you again. Smile
(You too Tom E... Wink ..)

You never know how a horse will pull until you hook him up to a heavy load. / Paul "Bear" Bryant ~/~\~ "Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast"

   I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. / Captain Woodrow Call _ Lonesome Dove _/\_  It's not dying I'm talking about, it's living. / Captain Gus McCrae _ Lonesome Dove  Rudy, you can't have no idea how little I care. / Monte Walsh _/\_  Why monitor a problem if you don't fix it? / LL _/\_  "Don’t expect a Porsche when you pay for a Pinto"./ RobertB_BLF          "What’s the worst thing that could happen? Never hurts to think about it"./ 'hank'_BLF _/\_ KMA=KeepMovingAhead <> FTR=ForTheRecord <> FU=ForeverUpward _/\                          Rudeness Level /\_ _/\ {width:70%} /\ _ /\TAB/\ LightWiki /\ LED Tint Chart /\ LED Tint Picture /\ BatteryU /\ TheOriginal                                          *Lights_Save $$$$* _/_/ Xlamp size chart \_\_ Flashaholic? Need Professional Help???   wink

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BIS-CON or BISCON
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FWIW, some explanation about the choice of mode groups.

There wasn’t room for many independent config options like in bistro, but I could at least fit something similar in the form of mode groups. It allows a total of 24 different configurations, compared to 145 (or 129) in bistro.

The first nine are basically three groups in forward and reverse, with optional blinkies.

1. 0.1%, 1%, 10%, 35%, 100%, strobe, biking, battery-check (default)
2. 0.1%, 1%, 10%, 35%, 100%
3. 100%, 35%, 10%, 1%, 0.1%

^ General purpose group. Note that you do not have to cycle through the blinkies if you have memory turned off. (The groups could only be up to 8 modes each, so SOS was left out. It’s rarely used.)

4. 1%, 20%, 100%, strobe, biking, battery-check, SOS
5. 1%, 20%, 100%
6. 100%, 20%, 1%

^ For people who prefer 3 modes, which is pretty common.

7. 0.1%, 1%, 10%, 50%, strobe, biking, battery-check, SOS
8. 0.1%, 1%, 10%, 50%
9. 50%, 10%, 1%, 0.1%

^ Half-power mode groups, so that 8×7135 drivers can work as if they were 4×7135 with no modification. Was specifically requested. Doubles the runtime, eliminates heat issues, and doesn’t actually look much dimmer. Also works as sort of a muggle mode.

10. 1%, 10%, 35%, 100%

^ Because it’s nice to have a moonless version of group 2, especially on a thrower. And because a full-power 4-level group was missing.

11. 100%, 20%, strobe

^ This arrangement was independently requested by several people, especially for police work and traffic routing.

12. 100% only

^ Sometimes people want a single-mode light, and there were two bytes left over, just enough to add this. The ROM is now exactly 1024 bytes.

Some of bistro’s features weren’t possible (like medium-press for reversing) or took too much room to fit (like “soft start” ramping up each mode), but I put in as much as I could. Hopefully it’ll cover most people’s preferences.

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TK understands the science of light a whole bunch better than I. I know radiation is the inverse square rule - double the distance, 1/4 the exposure, etc. Golden 3 rules for radiation are time/distance/shielding, and it travels in straight lines. Light is similar.

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Works the same for photography purposes, takes 4 times the light output to cover twice the distance. I have flash units that will fire 191’, or, effectively, across a football field from the sidelines. This takes a massive burst of power and will heat up the AA NiMH cells poste haste! For perspective, most point and shoot camera’s have a built in flash that will fire about 16’, few have a flash that will fire 20’.

When you get hot rod lights up into the thousands, the eye really has trouble telling the difference between hundreds of lumens. Very deceptive, this hobby of ours.

Dale

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Tom E wrote:
TK understands the science of light …


She blinded me with SCIENCE!

… and a flashlight.

I think it was mostly the flashlight.

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ToyKeeper wrote:
Tom E wrote:
TK understands the science of light …


She blinded me with SCIENCE!

… and a flashlight.




Thanks a lot! Facepalm

Now I have a nearly uncontrollable urge to rent Weird Science and watch it several times.

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Hey, that one’s worth studying for sure! Thanks for the visual TK. Wink

Dale

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Dale, don’t hate Kelley LeBrock because she’s beautiful. (from an advert’ of the period)

Don’t hate me because I’m beautiful

I never saw the movie, but she was memorable anyway (I just put it into my Netflix queue, it should be fun). She was at least as memorable as the old Noxzema “Take it off, take it all off” girl from my early teens .

Take it off, take it all off.

Sorry for the trip (and diversion) down memory lane. Back to lights.

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Finally new UI! Smile

Not those have all I need. Would it be possible to buy those drivers separately?

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How about Bisquick (edit: This was totally a joke, no disrespect intended)? lol Café au lait? I think when I get mine, I’ll just call it “AWESOME!!” Love

Demitasse?

Mahalo to everyone involved!

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ToyKeeper wrote:

In general, it is quite interesting firmware.
I’ll try it now flash in the Convoy C8.
From the description, I did not quite understand how the adjustment, but I think I can figure out.

What FUSE?

Why did you decide to abandon the separate control group of chips AMC7135?
1*7135 in the fifth leg, 2*7135 in the second, the other on the sixth leg of the microcontroller?

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I like Bisquick, but I think there are some trademark problems there.

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Bistroy ?
I like what is done here, true customer feedback engineering (if that makes any sense in my oh-so not native language…)
I like Bistro UI but can’t really enjoy it because of my uncontrollable taste for Turbo mode with 30Q…

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