Help ! -Need AA light with long runtime on low/moonlight mode

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RollerBoySE
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By the way, you can find a review of the gen.1 version of the Mini MA here:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?270918-4Sevens-Quark-...BEAMSHOTS-RUNTIMES-PICS-and-more!

Lexel
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so what is your problem, the manufactor of the light did specify run times for AA

he is taking the best availiable cell for max runtime, so that is a lithium 1.5V primary and 10% less with top alkalilines

if you cant get the same runtime with rechargable NiMh thats your problem not the problem of the specs

if you got a XP-G R5 LED inside you reach about 150 lumens/watt at low currents
so your NiMh has 1.2V and 2000mA that is 2.4Wh on paper
a Lithium primary has 1.5V and 3100mA that is 4.65Wh on paper

so 3 LED lumens x80 hours are 240Lh
so I need just a bit over 1.6Wh to power the LED the rest taked the flashlight converter
3.05Wh from the lithium primary are lost in the converter
34,4% efficiency

if you get only 30 hours out of your eneloops
that means from 2.4Wh are only 0.6Wh used to power the LED
so 1.8Wh are lost in the converter
25% eficiency

look at the discharge curves for 100mA at lower loads the Lithium primary will gain more advantage

and the step up converter will work at better efficiency with the lithium or alkaliline
so 80 hours are realistically for them at 3 Lumens

lisa3070
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Lexel wrote:
so what is your problem, the manufactor of the light did specify run times for AA

he is taking the best availiable cell for max runtime, so that is a lithium 1.5V primary and 10% less with top alkalilines

if you cant get the same runtime with rechargable NiMh thats your problem not the problem of the specs

if you got a XP-G3 S5 LED inside you reach about 210 lumens/watt at low currents
so your NiMh has 1.2V and 2000mA that is 2.4Wh on paper
a Lithium primary has 1.5V and 3100mA that is 4.65Wh on paper

so 3 lumens x80 hours are 240Lh
so I need just a bit over 1.1Wh to power the LED the rest taked the flashlight converter

look at the discharge curves for 100mA at lower loads the Lithium primary will gain more advantage

and the step up converter will work at better efficiency with the lithium or alkaliline
so 80 hours are realistically for them at 3 Lumens

I did not see, in the specs, where there manufacturer specifically stated that one must use a lithium cell, to get the 80 hour runtime.
If that info was listed, please show it to me. Do you not agree, that is important info that the buyer should be told by the maker ?

Furthermore, I find it hard to believe that this light will get 80 hours runtime from a 3000 mah lithium AA battery…when it only gets 28 hours runtime on a 2000 Mah fully charged AA eneloop. …that was charged to full capacity on a slow charge of .2 Amps and then immediately put in the flashlight for testing runtime.

Lexel
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A good alkaliline is just 5-10% less good than a lithium primary on low loads
https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUK...

the lithium primary tops an alkaliline on higher loads

for 3 Lumens moonlight an alkali battery might get 80h

show me in the product specs where the runtimes are referred to be achieved with rechargable batteries

Xtar specifies their Lithium 18650 lights with their batteries, but on an AA light they do for primaries

They also use a XP-G R5 which is not a top LED for efficiency with 150 lumens/watt

lisa3070
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In fact, after looking over the specs on the amazon page ..it specifically says this light and its specs are rated on using

1x AA(Alkaline, Ni-MH)

you can go look for yourselves.

So all the snide posters, who keep claiming the manufacturer was saying 80 hrs, on lithium only battery, are WRONG.

lisa3070
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Lexel wrote:
so what is your problem, the manufactor of the light did specify run times for AA

he is taking the best availiable cell for max runtime, so that is a lithium 1.5V

no, you are wrong.

it specifically says in the specs page on amazon.

nimh/alkalaine.

Lithium is not mentioned at all

would you like to apologize now ?

Muto
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lisa3070 wrote:

I own 40 AA/AAA eneloops….so I did not want to change out to lithium energizers, since my eneloops always performed properly in my other LED lights.

OK, so if you have 40 eneloop AA’s and the flashlight is testing at 28 hrs “continuous” and you want 72 hrs, again continuous then you just need to replace the battery 3 times during the outage.

Which brings me to another question, do you not have daylight available during these outages that the flashlight could be/should be turned off?
If you have daylight available, you could use a solar charger to give the batteries a boost at least.

I’m not trying to be a wiseazz, just trying to understand your exact situation and needs.
One other flashlight that comes to mind with a very efficient driver is the Thorfire PF03, but it is AAA and those batteries do not pack near the punch of AA so that will probably be out.
Good luck,

Keith

“History doesn’t repeat itself, but it sometimes rhymes,” Mark Twain

After the Apocalypse there will be only 2 things left alive, Cockroaches and Keith Richards
..

Big Sky Country

lisa3070
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Lexel wrote:
A good alkaliline is just 5-10% less good than a lithium primary on low loads
https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUK...

the lithium primary tops an alkaliline on higher loads

for 3 Lumens moonlight an alkali battery might get 80h

show me in the product specs where the runtimes are referred to be achieved with rechargable batteries

Xtar specifies their Lithium 18650 lights with their batteries, but on an AA light they do for primaries

go to the amazon link, scroll down, and you will see the manufacturer specifically says

nimh/alkalaine

lithium is not mentioned at all.

lisa3070
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Muto wrote:
lisa3070 wrote:

I own 40 AA/AAA eneloops….so I did not want to change out to lithium energizers, since my eneloops always performed properly in my other LED lights.

OK, so if you have 40 eneloop AA’s and the flashlight is testing at 28 hrs “continuous” and you want 72 hrs, again continuous then you just need to replace the battery 3 times during the outage.

Which brings me to another question, do you not have daylight available during these outages that the flashlight could be/should be turned off?
If you have daylight available, you could use a solar charger to give the batteries a boost at least.

I’m not trying to be a wiseazz, just trying to understand your exact situation and needs.
One other flashlight that comes to mind with a very efficient driver is the Thorfire PF03, but it is AAA and those batteries do not pack near the punch of AA so that will probably be out.
Good luck,

Keith

I use my eneloops in everything…so even though I have 40 of them…they arent just laying around unused.

some are in tv remotes..some are in pocket radios , some are in other LED lights, etc.

lisa3070
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Hey Lexel..here are the specs

Features:

-ANSI Illumination levels: Turbo High Mid Moonlight

-Luminance: 150Lm 80Lm 30Lm 3Lm

Duration: 1.2h 2h 6hrs 80hrs

-Max Intensity: 1420cd

-Bulb: CREE XP-G R5 LED

-Max Range : 75m

-Working Voltage: 0.9~1.8V

-Impact Resistance: 1.5m

-Switch: Tactical tailcap switch

-Crust Materials: Anodized aircraft6061 aluminium alloy. Hard-anodized anti-abrasive finish

-Water Resistance: IPX8

Battery:

- 1x AA(Alkaline, Ni-MH)

We can clearly see

Lithium battery is not even mentioned.

You were wrong..?

Lexel
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It says the light runs on Alkaliline and NiMh

there is absolutely no information on testing conditions for battery runtime
like
at 21°C
ENERGIZER L91 Ultimate Lithium
Constant Current Discharge to 0.8 Volts

https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0ahUK...

lisa3070
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Now, as I mentioned before , I did not expect the XTAR to get 80 hours runtime on a 2000 Mah eneloop , but I surely expected to get longer then 28 hours runtime. That is a big difference between the companies claimed runtime, and actual runtimes . And we now can see, the company was not claiming 80 hours runtime, on special lithium batteries, because they list nimh/alkalaine as being used . In fact, I will be shocked if this light got close to 80 hours runtime, on a new alkalaine. Maybe thats why it was marked down to $7.50.

lisa3070
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Lexel wrote:
It says the light runs on Alkaliline and NiMh

there is absolutely no information on testing conditions for battery runtime
like
at 21°C
ENERGIZER L91 Ultimate Lithium
Constant Current Discharge to 0.8 Volts

https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0ahUK...

correct….it doesnt even mention using lithium battery….therefore you conjecture that the 80 hour runtime, is accurate because the manufacturer is claiming use of lithium, is wrong. the runtimes were for nimh/alkaliane.

now can we admit you were wrong, and / or the company is being deceitful at best ?

Lexel
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you get to 80 hours with an energizer Ultimate alkaliline put one in and see for yourself

you cant expect same runtime from an rechargable battery as you get from a primary cell

from a fenix aaa light

⇒8 Lumen 14:30 Std. NiMH Akku / 15 Std. Alkali-Batterie

⇒25 Lumen 4:15 Std. NiMH Akku / 4:15 Std. Alkali-Batterie

⇒100 Lumen 0:45 Std. NiMH Akku / 0:30 Std. Alkali-Batterie

Gestestet mit einem 750 mAh NiMH Akku und der mitgelieferten Alkali-Batterie. Die Brenndauer im 100 Lumen Modus ist akkumuliert, da die Taschenlampe nach 3 Minuten Betrieb im 100 Lumen Modus zum 25 Lumen Modus herunterschaltet, dann aber wieder neu mit 100 Lumen aktiviert werden kann.

lisa3070
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Lexel wrote:

you cant expect same runtime from an rechargable battery as you get from a primary cell

I already admitted that.

Im waiting for you to admit you were wrong, on claiming the rating was for lithium battery.

Lexel
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Contact Xtar and ask em which battery they used to get the runtimes I am almost sure they did it with a Lithium primary

if you got a XP-G R5 LED inside you reach about 150 lumens/watt at low currents
so your NiMh has 1.2V and 2000mA that is 2.4Wh on paper
a Lithium primary has 1.5V and 3100mA that is 4.65Wh on paper

so 3 LED lumens x80 hours are 240Lh
so I need just a bit over 1.6Wh to power the LED the rest taked the flashlight converter
3.05Wh from the lithium primary are lost in the converter
34,4% efficiency

if you get only 30 hours out of your eneloops
that means from 2.4Wh are only 0.6Wh used to power the LED
so 1.8Wh are lost in the converter
25% eficiency

lisa3070
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Lexel wrote:
Contact Xtar and ask em which battery they used to get the runtimes I am almost sure they did it with a Lithium primary

The listed spec, by the company, on amazon, state

nimh/alkalaine

Lithium is not mentioned….therefore, if you are correct they are using lithium, then they are being deceptive by not mentioning it.

How can you not admit this ?

If lithium is the only way to achieve 80 hours runtime, then I think the company should mention it. I say this, for several reasons..like

lithium costs more…lithium takes a special charger instead of a normal nimh/nicd charger….lithium can be more dangerous…etc

Lazy-R-us
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There is another thing to consider, which is how much charge is lost while sitting on the shelf. I use NiMH rechargeable batteries in many things. I recently bought a (16?) pack of eneloops and recycled some old Energizer’s.

HOWEVER, all of my devices that are strewn about the house for emergency use, have Energizer Lithium primary cells installed. In many cases I have also fashioned insulators out of old business cards that prevents each device from accidental turn on or any standby drain.

I have not run any tests to determine max run time for any of my emergency devices. I do have spare Lithium primaries and multiple methods of charging batteries from virtually any power source. I’m confident that I could easily go months without requiring new cells to generate light. But then I don’t live in a cave where I need a light on 24 hours a day either.

Lazy-R-us

hank
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Quote:
I will check my closet and see if I have any .

For a fair test, buy a new alkaline battery.
Just one.

old alkalines are prone to leak, because the chemistry actually erodes the metal shell as the voltage runs down.

If it’s in your closet, it’s not apt to be fresh.
No offense to your clothes, just talking about the alkaline cell.

lisa3070
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Lazy-R-us wrote:
There is another thing to consider, which is how much charge is lost while sitting on the shelf. I use NiMH rechargeable batteries in many things. I recently bought a (16?) pack of eneloops and recycled some old Energizer’s.

HOWEVER, all of my devices that are strewn about the house for emergency use, have Energizer Lithium primary cells installed. In many cases I have also fashioned insulators out of old business cards that prevents each device from accidental turn on or any standby drain.

I have not run any tests to determine max run time for any of my emergency devices. I do have spare Lithium primaries and multiple methods of charging batteries from virtually any power source. I’m confident that I could easily go months without requiring new cells to generate light. But then I don’t live in a cave where I need a light on 24 hours a day either.

The eneloop , I used for this test…was fully charged at a slow rate…capacity read 2019 Mahs….it was then put right in the light, and turned on moonlight mode for testing. This eneloop, did not sit on a shelf for days or weeks, where it would lose capacity. I did this test, because I actually thought it would be incredible, if the XTAR got anywhere close to the 80 hour runtime as claimed.

Lexel
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you dont u8nderstand that testing conditions are not specified

and the battery type to use is as well Lithium primary but as it is not common they did not write that in the description so people dont put 3.7V batteries inside

lisa3070
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hank wrote:
Quote:
I will check my closet and see if I have any .

For a fair test, buy a new alkaline battery.
Just one.

old alkalines are prone to leak, because the chemistry actually erodes the metal shell as the voltage runs down.

If it’s in your closet, it’s not apt to be fresh.
No offense to your clothes, just talking about the alkaline cell.

Agreed.

I checked, and dont have any new alkalines.

then again, even if it gets 80 hours on alkalines , it still isnt what I needed.

I would guess,. on a new duracell , this light may get 65 hours runtime . If it got 80 , I would be shocked.

lisa3070
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Lexel wrote:
you dont u8nderstand that testing conditions are not specified

they specifiy

NIMH/ALKALINE batteries..in the specs.

lithium is not mentioned at all

no matter how you try to spin it, this is deceptive on the companies part.

If you bought a car, and they told you it gets 60 miles to a gallon ….but then you got it home, to find out you only get that MPG by using jet fuel..and if you use normal gas, you only get 20 MPG….and you werent told this by the manufacturer..would you feel deceived ?

chadvone
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For moon light or low low light, your best bet would be a alkaline. The Engergizer L91s have not performed well at lower levels. Edit, well for the money

How many light you plan on having on at once ?
Have you ever used a light camping?

Sounds like you just want a light left on in each room?

hank
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Quote:
Puffery – Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puffery In law, puffery is a promotional statement or claim that expresses subjective rather than objective views, which no “reasonable person” would take literally. Puffery serves to “puff up” an exaggerated image of what is being described and is especially featured in testimonials. ‎Origin · ‎Federal Trade Commission …

Be reasonable. Expect to be lied to.
If this surprises you (and, in fact, if you believe the advertised gas mileage on cars), there is much to learn.

Look for a CMG Infinity AA

Compare the reported runtimes from the various reviews to (2nd page of results) what Gerber claims.
It won’t last as long as the manic pixie fantasy flashlight claims, but then, nothing will.
It will last a long time, and it will slowly get dimmer as the voltage drops.

One key point on low level light —- don’t turn it on and off, just leave it on. Just starting up the driver electronics will consume more of the remaining battery power than you save by using it intermittently in moonlight mode, according to Gransee of Arc Flashlight years ago.

hank
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PS, since your stated need is for a light that will last several days —
— do you mean 24 hour days, like in a storm shelter? Or will you have daylight every day?
— do you mean only when you’re in the room, and awake, or 24 hours per day?

If you look for emergency lights you’ll find a variety that may do what you need.
Try www.dorcydirect.com and consider their motion sensor battery lights and emergency lights.

Or some of these: https://www.google.com/search?q=emergency+light+%22several+days%22

lisa3070
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Appreciate the replies.

If this XTAR would have gotten 60% of its rated runtime of 80 hours, with my eneloops, I woulda been happy. Only getting 28 hours out of a rated 80 hours, is quite a difference. I was expecting to get around 55-60 hours runtime , so I am dissapointed , but its no big monetary loss.

Ill probably just wait till a good sale comes for what I need or new technology comes out in 2017 to get the longer runtimes on moonlight mode using eneloops.

I did not want to have to buy all new batteries . I like the eneloops and their performance overall. I still think the XTAR suffers from severely over rated specs and this is to be expected for a $7.00 light.

lisa3070
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[quote=hank]PS, since your stated need is for a light that will last several days —
— do you mean 24 hour days, like in a storm shelter? Or will you have daylight every day?
— /quote]

Yes….this would be for a storm shelter type deal or power grid down for several days

Thats why im so dissapointed with the 28 hour runtime from XTAR.

I liked the idea of having a simple , inexpensive LED flashlight that runs on a single eneloop AA/AAA , for 2 days or more, on moonlight mode, using a light diffuser.

kramer5150
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Well… theres really only one way to find out. Just get an alkaline cell and try it out. Not all alkaline batteries are created equal too. Some are longer running than others for low drain applications. It would be presumptuous to just assume a product doesn’t meet Akaline spec without actually testing.

The other aspect you are neglecting is the discharge characteristics of Alkaline versus nimh. Alkalines at very low current gradually deplete their output. So at these low currents its not always cut and dry. Oh also, eneloops may not be actually 2000mah. My understanding is they gradually lose capacity, especially when they are repeatedly deep discharged way down. So there can be a lot of variables.

Anyways… For whatever reason, ultra low candle modes (fraction of a lumen) are almost always not featured on budget-affordable lights.

The thrunite T10 has a .2 Lumen ultra low mode from a 1.2V battery (presumably an eneloop pro). This might get you to 80 hours and with a 240 hour spec I would fully expect it to.
https://www.amazon.com/ThruNite-flashlight-single-hand-operation-Flashli...

I just got a TH20 headlamp. Its spec reads, With AA 2450mAh (eneloop pro I would assume) = 14 day run time at its .3 Lumen firefly mode. This headlamp has replaced my $$$ Zebralight and I am very impressed with its overall quality for the $ spent. I would expect similar levels of quality from the T10.

Anyways… Good Luck!!! At ~$8 I still think you got a GREAT light for the money.

lisa3070
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I will also say, this XTAR at 3 lumens moonlight mode, with a light diffuser , gave off enough light to keep my bedroom nicely illumniated…and my bedroom measures 16 ft x 16 ft…

I really think a moonlight mode of only 1.5 lumens, would work nicely, for my needs, as long as it ran for min 48 hours on eneloops and was budget priced. I would order several of them .

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