New VirEnce MCPCB for E17/E21/119/144/233U

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BlueSwordM
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@clemence, no, it’s not.

It’s actually rather close to production. DBSAR received it, and he is currently doing testing, and will be making videos about the final prototype after a few days.

My very own high current Beryllium Copper springs Gen 3:
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/67401
Liitokala Aliexpress Stores Battery Fraud: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/60547

iamlucky13
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adam7027 wrote:
C: too bad, that no tint mixing is possible between ‘L’ and ‘W’ group – some people would find 2700K to 4000K tint mixing a bit narrow

Tint mixing should still work ok since the “L” and “W” are driven by separate banks of 7135 regulators.

The firmware corrections to maintain constant brightness as the tint is adjusted will probably be off, but that should be a minor drawback.

clemence wrote:
I think its better to just make the lantern as designed. We can always start a GB for this MCPCB with poll later. I need at least 300pcs committed order to make it
Is the lantern still far from realization?

[Clemence]

No change is going to be made to the factory MCPCB at this stage. It will ship with Samsung LH351D’s.

A group buy list would be a good way to handle this proposal. It seems prudent to wait until the lantern actually starts shipping to start the list though, so potential buyers can decide if they are happy with the stock emitter.

The_Driver
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Yes, it makes sense to wait until the lanterns are being shipped. I think that this is definitely worth it though. It gives owners a large flexibilty regarding the CCT range of the lantern and  Clemence might be able to sell a lot of LEDs (and pcbs).

SKV89
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The_Driver wrote:

Yes, it makes sense to wait until the lanterns are being shipped. I think that this is definitely worth it though. It gives owners a large flexibilty regarding the CCT range of the lantern and  Clemence might be able to sell a lot of LEDs (and pcbs).

Maybe Clemence might work with DBSar to post the group buy in the OP of the BLF LT1 thread so people know about it. Better yet, if he can get the groupbuy news included in the PM when they notify the people in the interest list when the lantern is available. With 2,000+ buyers for the LT1, we should be able to get 300+ orders for the E21A board.

BlueSwordM
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So, took this picture yesterday, and found that this light is using flat LEDs.

Could this be Optisolis, E17A/E21As, or a Luminus MP3030?

My very own high current Beryllium Copper springs Gen 3:
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/67401
Liitokala Aliexpress Stores Battery Fraud: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/60547

clemence
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BlueSwordM wrote:
So, are these Nichia Optisolis or E17/E21As, or a Luminus LED?

I took this picture yesterday.

!{width:40%}https://i.postimg.cc/X43BFxWR/IMG-20190816-154050.jpg!

Looks E21A to me

[Clemence]

BlueSwordM
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Yeah, suspected it was the case.

This light is rated at 95+CRI with an R9 rating of 85, along with being very efficient at its power rating for such a high CRI light.

Interestingly, this isn’t using a run of the mill aluminium MCPCB.

From what I can gather, they are using a special compound like yours to gain superb thermal conductivity using only the power pads on the LEDs for thermal transfer.

My very own high current Beryllium Copper springs Gen 3:
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/67401
Liitokala Aliexpress Stores Battery Fraud: http://budgetlightforum.com/node/60547

clemence
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Aluminum oxide or nanoceramic based MCPCB has been around since 2004. The advancement in performance keeps improving. Smaller, finer closed pores oxide is the goal. Today, the thinnest is at 3um thick. But 10um is the most consistent we can get from mass produced boards. There’s a new development to start using copper oxide on copper base to get even higher performance.
In parallel, aluminum nitride based PCB also getting cheaper especially the less pure 170W/MK substrate which is already very high. 250 W/MK AlN is at the high end spectrum competing with BeO substrate.

[Clemence]

xenotar80
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SKV89 wrote:
The_Driver wrote:

Yes, it makes sense to wait until the lanterns are being shipped. I think that this is definitely worth it though. It gives owners a large flexibilty regarding the CCT range of the lantern and  Clemence might be able to sell a lot of LEDs (and pcbs).

Maybe Clemence might work with DBSar to post the group buy in the OP of the BLF LT1 thread so people know about it. Better yet, if he can get the groupbuy news included in the PM when they notify the people in the interest list when the lantern is available. With 2,000+ buyers for the LT1, we should be able to get 300+ orders for the E21A board.

If an E21A board came out for the lantern, i’m going to have to up my order for more lanterns Big Smile

Agro
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clemence wrote:
Aluminum oxide or nanoceramic based MCPCB has been around since 2004. The advancement in performance keeps improving. Smaller, finer closed pores oxide is the goal. Today, the thinnest is at 3um thick. But 10um is the most consistent we can get from mass produced boards. There’s a new development to start using copper oxide on copper base to get even higher performance.
In parallel, aluminum nitride based PCB also getting cheaper especially the less pure 170W/MK substrate which is already very high. 250 W/MK AlN is at the high end spectrum competing with BeO substrate.

[Clemence]


I assume 170W/mK AlN PCBs are still costlier than 10µm oxidized Al?
ADDED:
BTW, I don’t see a need for that at the moment but out of curosity I searched for 250 W/mK AlN PCBs and found none. Would you mind pointing us at the manufacturer?
aswang
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Yes. e21A mcpcb for LT1 please.

djozz
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It is a pity that the Optisolis does not go down to 2000K, it makes just more sense to use a handful of midpower leds for a lantern than the current 8 high power leds. But changing the lantern to 2700K/6500K Optisolis (I would choose 2700K/5000K btw) for me would probably not make enough difference to go through the trouble and cost to do the mod.

iamlucky13
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djozz wrote:
It is a pity that the Optisolis does not go down to 2000K, it makes just more sense to use a handful of midpower leds for a lantern than the current 8 high power leds. But changing the lantern to 2700K/6500K Optisolis (I would choose 2700K/5000K btw) for me would probably not make enough difference to go through the trouble and cost to do the mod.

Some users would also not like the fact that the tint would be above the BBL at the cool end of the CCT ramp.

I think you know, but others may not, that Optisolis is designed to mimic standard illuminants. At 5000K and above, the standard illuminants are based on various daylight conditions, which have 0.002 to 0.003 positive DUV.

Pavlo
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some new and improved E17a and E21a boards are available on Virence.

Anybody from Vancouver, Canada thinking of ordering so we can group shipping together?

johnkey68
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Hurrah ! Two new copper MCPCB ! Compared Crown

iamlucky13
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Excellent. I’m planning an E17a RGBA build with a floody optic (either S2+ and Kaidomain driver or Skilhunt H03RC hosts). The E17a board should help reduce beam weirdness.

I would also like to know if a modified version to fit Armytek headlamps will be offered again.

Agro
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Compared to older copper boards it has a much better dielectric layer.

Compared to alu boards:

  • worse dielectric (but still good)
  • better base board
  • slightly higher price (though that may be due to the alu one being phased out)

For some lights I think copper would be better but for others alu still seems better.

ma tumba
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So how does max amperage compare for the 17 and the 21 board? It has become a bit overwhelming.

clemence
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Thanks Johnkey, I borrow your pic here…

The copper board works unexpectedly way better than predicted. From many tests performed in BLF, we knew the tighter the LED pitch the hotter it gets. Not only because the copper trace surface area needed to shed the heat from the LED base reduced, but also due to the “photon cross talk” as mentioned by Nichia in their application notes. The LED takes and recycle the photon from the neighboring LEDs and the stored photon, instead escaping as light flux, trapped and heats the phosphor layer. The same phenomenon known as back scatter lights in undeveloped light guide.

Previous 16mm x 1,5mm nanoceramic aluminum PCB (VR16SP4) maxed out at 11,2A. And that was with LED pitch 0,4mm. The other 21mm x 2mm (0,25mm LED pitch) nanoceramic PCB (VR21SP4) peak output maxed at approximately same 11A but it’s thicker and larger in diameter. New copper based VR16SP4 v.2 with 16mm x 1,5mm (0,2mm LED pitch) maxed at 11A! I underestimated it, and expected no more than 8A. At first I couldn’t believe it, because VR16SP4 v.2 also has reduced copper trace area for mounting clearance. And then, it uses “standard” IMS technology with more than double (50µm) the thickness of the nanoceramic MPCB NC MCPCB (20µm). The thinner the dielectric layer the faster the heat moves away from the LED base to the heatsink.

Below you can see the big penalty in output just by closing the gap down to 0,1mm in VR16SP4m. With wider LED pitch, quadtrix E17A should be able to reach at least 7A instead of 5,75A. But this reduction in output means wider optics compatibility and more importantly, more control over beam shapes. With VR16SP4 v.2 you can’t go too narrow or there will be “donut” hole in the middle of the beam. And OP/textured reflector or microlens (honeycomb/peebled/textured) TIR has to be used for narrower optics. VR16SP4m can use lighter texture OP reflector or finer microlens surface TIR. It also produce higher intensity beam (brighter hot spot).

Same 1000mA total input. Note how E17A have much higher luminance for farther throw

Note:
Due to complication in maintaining relatively constant and cool MCPCB temperature using total loss water cooling, clamping jig, etc… I could not directly measure the output. Ouput measured once at 100mA briefly to prevent heating the LED and the rest of the output numbers derived using the plotted lux measurements (TASI 632A). Measurement done in my DIY light box using Maukka’s calibrated lights.

[Clemence]

id30209
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Didn't see that coming...

This is even better than i was thinking it could be!

WTB Titanium 4sevens Quarks & Jetbeam TCR1

iamlucky13
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Clemence, thanks for all this test data. It definitely provides confidence in your boards.

Will you be offering those optics through your store, or can you share the source (especially for the microlens version)?

Also, will you be offering either of the VR16SP4 boards trimmed to fit in Armytek’s as you have in the past? Thanks!

Agro
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id30209 wrote:

Didn’t see that coming…


This is even better than i was thinking it could be!


Indeed.
Now…any news about 3×3 boards? Wink
id30209
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Agro wrote:
.any news about 3x3 boards? ;)

Savage....cool

WTB Titanium 4sevens Quarks & Jetbeam TCR1

clemence
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Agro wrote:
id30209 wrote:

Didn’t see that coming…


This is even better than i was thinking it could be!

Indeed. Now…any news about 3×3 boards? Wink

I think I’ll skip that for this…

[Clemence]

id30209
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Clemence, you caught the wave... tongue-out

WTB Titanium 4sevens Quarks & Jetbeam TCR1

Agro
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Interesting…but too large for the 20.6 mm diameter light that waits for it. Wink
ADDED: though without the corner LEDs the following 12 would have just 0.42 mm larger diameter than 9….
ADDED: About 10-12A when driven off 16340? A hottie.

clemence
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Too sleepy to continue, will post the beam shots tomorrow…

[Clemence]

iamlucky13
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^ That looks like exactly what I’m planning on doing: RGBA quadtrix (in an S2+). Glasses

I’m hoping to find a better 4-channel driver than the single mode per channel model that kaidomain sells, but even if not, I will enjoy experimenting with these.

SKV89
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Clemence, is that 4×4 still going to be 35mm? If so, it won’t be able to fit in any flashlights Tired

clemence
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SKV89 wrote:
Clemence, is that 4×4 still going to be 35mm? If so, it won’t be able to fit in any flashlights Tired

That 4×4 E21A requires big 13mm LES class COB optic to work properly. With smaller than 35mm (ideally 50mm) the wiring will interfere and creates artifacts unless special flat wires which is not common is used. With 30mm diameter it’s uses are even more limited. And another reason is the heat spreading factor which is a very important factor for non isolated thermal pads in E21A. Larger the diameter is better. Above thermal simulation shows that to get into BLF output range (8500 lumens in R9080 or 12.000lumens in R70), 0,21mm (6 oz) thick copper trace is needed (with current best IMS available)

[Clemence]

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