XP-L2 V5 Output & Death test by Texas_Ace Over 2200 lumens! Still worked after 15 Amps!

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Texas_Ace
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djozz wrote:
For that reason I let the Vf axis not start at zero but a bit under the minimum measured voltage.

Yeah, same result.

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Excellent work TA! I love this torture testing stuff. Posting work like this provides excellent points of reference for modders Thumbs Up

Put me on the list of those wanting to know more about your setup with lots of pictures!

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Wow, excellent work on this! I'd love to see the details on the PVC sphere as well, plus a XM-L2 U4 and XPL V6 and W2 if possible. The U4 will pop early compared to XPL's but output is still pretty good.

Cutter has the W2's listed here: https://www.cutter.com.au/proddetail.php?prod=cut2752, but the description says V4 3D, so who knows. If they were W2's, you would still have to de-solder and reflow them onto a single LED board. The website is always a problem with Cutter, plus their usual lack of responding. I would ask them but I've had too many problems with them in the past.

 

Texas_Ace
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Thanks!

Sadly I do not have the funds to buy anything at the moment so it will be awhile till I am able to do anymore tests then what I already have lined up. All the other emitters I have on hand would not be all that interesting as Djozz has already tested most of them.

Now if someone has some spares laying around let me know, I got the time right now due to time off for Christmas, just no funds.

Texas_Ace
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What are peoples opinions on the axis’s in the chart? Should I swap them so that the lumens is on the left and voltage on the right or leave it as it is?

Tom E
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My vote is lumens on the left. Actually had to stare at it for a while to find it.

You know I could send you two of the Ali W2's. I got a few. Would be great to test them against a V6 though - could send you one V6 as well. Actually though if you have identical bin/tints as Djozz tested, it would be a good comparison of the test configuration.

lets pm on it.

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Orsm work TA. Threads like this are invaluable and looking forward to more of your testing for comparisons. Beer

About the measuring device. Yes please new thread. Smile

 

djozz quotes, "it came with chinese lettering that is chinese to me".

                      "My man mousehole needs one too"

old4570 said "I'm not an expert , so don't suffer from any such technical restrictions".

Old-Lumens. Highly admired and cherished member of Budget Light Forum. 11.5.2011 - 20.12.16. RIP.

 

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Tom E wrote:

My vote is lumens on the left. Actually had to stare at it for a while to find it.


You know I could send you two of the Ali W2’s. I got a few. Would be great to test them against a V6 though – could send you one V6 as well. Actually though if you have identical bin/tints as Djozz tested, it would be a good comparison of the test configuration.


lets pm on it.

PM Sent.

MRsDNF wrote:
Orsm work TA. Threads like this are invaluable and looking forward to more of your testing for comparisons. Beer

About the measuring device. Yes please new thread. Smile

Thanks, yeah, I think people want to see it bad enough that I will need to make a thread for the sphere.

Texas_Ace
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Holy cow, these LED’s preform just as good in a light as they do on the bench! If I can now just find a neutral tint version preferably in 90+ CRI with cheap shipping.

I just built an S2+ with the second XP-L2 that was sent to me (I like to get 2 of any LED’s I test so that I have a spare in case something goes wrong or if the first test results are inconsistent for some reason, plus I like to install one in a light so I can see what it looks like in the real world).

Wow, this is easily the brightest single emitter tube like I have!

The really surprising thing is how much more efficient it is. With the TA17 drivers I have a regulated 350ma mode that generally nets me around 120-150 lumens depending on the LED, the highest I have seen was 180 with an XP-L V6 HD IIRC.

With the XP-L2 I am getting 200 lumens @ 350ma!

I then have a 2.45A regulated mode that normally nets me around 850-900 lumens, with the XP-L2 I am getting 1150 lumens!

Then we come to turbo, here are the results with different cells, these are all from a cold start, this is why I retest the peak output on the bench from a cold start to see what it would do in a flashlight.

Cheap laptop pull – ~6A – 1950 lumens
GA – ~7A – 2100 lumens
30Q – ~8.5A – 2300 lumens

Now of course things get hot fast and the output drops fast as well but I didn’t feel like testing each at 30 seconds. Still, 2300 lumens @ turn on from an EDC S2+ is seriously impressive!

It is also nice to see that the cold start test on the bench is indeed a good indication of what happens in a real light. It also explains why the numbers people report from flashlights are sometimes higher then what djozz’s tests says they would be.

After I got done being impressed with it on the sphere I then started looking at the beam.

Edit, just built a 5700k 90+ CRI XP-G3 for direct comparison. Updated the rest of the post accordingly.

First thing I noticed is that it is much like the XG-G3 with the tint shift as others have mentioned around the edge of the beam. The tint shift is basically the same as the G3, the tint plays a larger factor then the type of LED I think.

Compared to the 5700k G3 I would say the tint is close in the hot spot although the L2 has more red in the beam giving it a slight purple hue when white wall hunting. When used in the wild it is actually not that bad of a tint, but still too cool for my tastes.

I am thinking I would want 4000k to get a neutral tint, this one is far too cool for my liking, CRI is not about average for a 70CRI.

The beam size is naturally larger then the G3 but not a ton, maybe 25% larger.

Overall except for the cold tint I really like this LED, the tint shift is not ideal but it is livable for the performance you get. A good TIR lens that mixes the beam would really improve things, the TIR I am using helps but doesn’t fix the tint shift.

If these can be found in neutral tints and 90+ CRI I can easily see these becoming the go to LED’s for myself.

In other news I was comparing the graphs from the XP-L2 and XHP35 (test not released yet) and I am pretty sure that we are reaching the limits of the 3535 footprint at around 40W. Both LED’s have the same general curve shape when looking at wattage, I am guessing that 40W is just the limit for how fast the heat can be moved out of the LED no matter what star you have it mounted on. Honestly that is seriously impressive for that tiny footprint.

This does make me look forward to an XM-L3 to be released with this latest die tech, it is possible it could reach even higher numbers due to the larger footprint.

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Nice! Just ordered 12 of these: https://www.arrow.com/en/products/xplbwt-00-0000-000bv50e5/cree

These are V5 bin, E5 tint (4000K), 70 CRI min.

Still free shipping w/Arrow, but my local NY sales tax is a pain.

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Tom E wrote:

Nice! Just ordered 12 of these: https://www.arrow.com/en/products/xplbwt-00-0000-000bv50e5/cree


These are V5 bin, E5 tint (4000K), 70 CRI min.


Still free shipping w/Arrow, but my local NY sales tax is a pain.


O great, so after the WD and WJ (etc) bin codes we got the more comprehensible 1A and 3C (etc) codes and now they’re doing E5 and what nots?
And how do we read those?
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Boy, calm down there. The "En" code system was always used. When we buy from distributors like Mouser, Digikey and Arrow, it's always been by the "En" grouping, never by a specific tint, like 3C, 1A, etc. You get them cheaper this way. I can only assume a middle man breaks the "En" groups down further into a specific tint by testing them. Check the CREE specs - it's there for all the main LED's we use. CREE calls it a kit #, so E5 includes 5A, 5B, 5C, and 5D - it's all in their specs.

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Tom E wrote:

Nice! Just ordered 12 of these: https://www.arrow.com/en/products/xplbwt-00-0000-000bv50e5/cree


These are V5 bin, E5 tint (4000K), 70 CRI min.


Still free shipping w/Arrow, but my local NY sales tax is a pain.

Very nice, They must have taken my suggestion to allow the LED’s to be purchased individually! Just yesterday those were only for sale in 500 quantity minium orders. I know, I searched them for any XP-L2 options and they were all 500 min then contacted them via chat to ask if they could sell them individually.

They told me it was not possible but apparently it was!

I had my eye one these V3 4000k 80cri versions:

https://www.arrow.com/en/products/xplbwt-00-0000-000hv340g/cree

https://www.arrow.com/en/products/xplbwt-00-0000-000hv30e5/cree

Hmm, now to see if I can scrounge up the funds for some of those to play with. Man, being broke sucks sometimes lol.

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Tom E wrote:

Boy, calm down there. The “En” code system was always used. When we buy from distributors like Mouser, Digikey and Arrow, it’s always been by the “En” grouping, never by a specific tint, like 3C, 1A, etc. You get them cheaper this way. I can only assume a middle man breaks the “En” groups down further into a specific tint by testing them. Check the CREE specs – it’s there for all the main LED’s we use. CREE calls it a kit #, so E5 includes 5A, 5B, 5C, and 5D – it’s all in their specs.

Yep, that ^

As far as I know you can’t even buy a “3D” bin emitter, at least it doesn’t appear that way in the data sheets. You can simply buy tighter binned emitters that will be closer to each other.

I have never seen an official Cree part number with the “normal” tint rating system we are used to.

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Tom E wrote:

Nice! Just ordered 12 of these: https://www.arrow.com/en/products/xplbwt-00-0000-000bv50e5/cree

These are V5 bin, E5 tint (4000K), 70 CRI min.

Still free shipping w/Arrow, but my local NY sales tax is a pain.

 

how much will they do in a M43? Wink

 all new deals are posted here: 

deals.m4dm4x.com

ask MARTIN@M4DM4X.COM - i will try to save you money!

Texas_Ace
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Tom E wrote:

Nice! Just ordered 12 of these: https://www.arrow.com/en/products/xplbwt-00-0000-000bv50e5/cree


These are V5 bin, E5 tint (4000K), 70 CRI min.


Still free shipping w/Arrow, but my local NY sales tax is a pain.

I just noticed that the cut strips are listed as “or order”, be sure to let us know if/when they ship.

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Tom E wrote:

Boy, calm down there.

Alright sir. Smile
Quote:
The “En” code system was always used. When we buy from distributors like Mouser, Digikey and Arrow, it’s always been by the “En” grouping, never by a specific tint, like 3C, 1A, etc. You get them cheaper this way. I can only assume a middle man breaks the “En” groups down further into a specific tint by testing them. Check the CREE specs – it’s there for all the main LED’s we use. CREE calls it a kit #, so E5 includes 5A, 5B, 5C, and 5D – it’s all in their specs.
Thanks for explaining. Thumbs Up
Tom E
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Wish I knew more bout the process, but thought I read one of two things 3rd party middle guy do it with some pretty fancy equipment that can bin them properly, maybe Cutter can. Or, CREE does it on big orders, more or less a custom order.

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It is possible, it is just not spelled out in the data sheet. Very possible it is just some guy saying that looks like a 2D and selling it as such as well.

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Thanks for the testing TA!

Will people hate on this emitter like they did with the XPG3?

What your average output numbers for a triple S2+? This must be coming close to those numbers?

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everydaysurvivalgear wrote:
Thanks for the testing TA!

Will people hate on this emitter like they did with the XPG3?

What your average output numbers for a triple S2+? This must be coming close to those numbers?

I have a feeling people will hate on the tint shift like the XP-G3 since the tint shift is basically the same for both of them.

Although the extreme output these have should off-set that in many peoples mind. I personally never really minded the tint shift in the real world myself, you don’t really notice it unless white wall hunting.

Far as output goes, it doesn’t quite match a triple setup but it is a lot more usable IMO since it is not pure flood and actually has a beam and hot spot. With my XP-G3 90+ cri mixed tint triple I am getting around 2500 lumens without a bypassed rear spring (been too busy). I assume it will be around 2800-3000 lumens with it bypassed. I will actually be selling that light before long.

The XP-L2 looks brighter though since the hot spot is more intense and that is what the eye notices.

Overall the XP-L2 is great for output, the tint shift is something it looks like we are just going to have to deal with as we move into the next generation of LED’s. Even the 219c’s I got recently have a slight tint shift on the edge of the beam (although much much less noticeable then cree).

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I'm thinking the best use of these would be in OP reflectors or triple/quads, either TIR optics or SRK's, etc. I'm thinking roughly it could add 25%+ output to the BLF Q8, maybe 50%+ output to triples and quads like with the X6's many of us built, besides huge output gains in standard 20 mm triple lights.

Of course the output bump is mainly attributed to higher amps, which means higher heat.

What I'm not understanding is the higher output at fixed amps of 350 mA and 2.45A. If it's bin 5, wouldn't that match output at fixed amps of a XPL V5? But you are clearly seeing higher output lumens than any XPL V5 LED, so, why would the CREE specs indicate otherwise?

The best # I've measured on one 350 7135 is about 180 lumens, but that was in a triple or quad.

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Tint shift is a killer for me. If they make an XP-L2 HI somehow I’ll probably jump on board, but I’ll give up quite a few lumens to not be disgusted by the beam when I turn it on.

Also, I think Cree themselves do label things with specific bins like “3D”, but it comes after awhile for a new emitter. It seems they try to get the first few batches out quickly, then do more specific binning later.

This is all based on my fairly vivd memory of seeing Cree labels with specific tint bins on them in the past.

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I think the largest reason for the numbers was actually not that the numbers were wrong but the emitters were wrong. Up till recently I have been collecting parts but kept waiting for the TA drivers to be finished, then TK to update the firmware and finally for the funds to actually build them.

A lot of the lights I have built so far had LED’s from “sketchy” suppliers, My guess is that the bins were not correct in them (big part of why I didn’t want to test them and base results off those numbers).

I have been building a LOT of S2+‘s this week with various setups, here is a random sampling of numbers from them to give an idea. These LED’s I am sure are genuine bins but they are committed to gift lights so I didn’t want to risk messing them up.

Oh, the numbers from my test actually line up perfectly with the Cree data sheet when I compared them via http://pct.cree.com/dt/index.html

219C 4000k 90+ CRI D240 from group buy

350ma = 140 lm
2.45 = 740 lm

XP-L HI V2 3D (the best throwing S2+ I have with a TIR)from IOS

350ma = 170 lm
2.45 = 1000 lm

XP-G3 5700K 90+ CRI from Arrow, not highest bin

350ma = 193 lm
2.45 = 930 lm

XP-L2 5000k V5 from mouser

350ma = 200 lm
2.45A = 1150 lm

So with known bin emitters the jump is not as much as I originally thought, It seems that fasttech and others can’t be trusted with their bins Facepalm

I should have noted where the other LED’s came from.

The biggest change is what happens when you keep pressing the LED and the fact it can pull a lot more power from the cells, even cheap laptop cells can give nice output.

single cell buck drivers would also make a fair amount of sense with these LED’s.

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pilotdog68 wrote:
Tint shift is a killer for me. If they make an XP-L2 HI somehow I’ll probably jump on board, but I’ll give up quite a few lumens to not be disgusted by the beam when I turn it on.

I am debating slicing the dome on the one I have, the beam could be tighter for what I do with it and I am curious to see if it would improve the tint shift.

Although in the real world the tint shift is not all that bad, only in the house do I notice it.

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Texas_Ace wrote:
pilotdog68 wrote:
Tint shift is a killer for me. If they make an XP-L2 HI somehow I’ll probably jump on board, but I’ll give up quite a few lumens to not be disgusted by the beam when I turn it on.

I am debating slicing the dome on the one I have, the beam could be tighter for what I do with it and I am curious to see if it would improve the tint shift.

Although in the real world the tint shift is not all that bad, only in the house do I notice it.


I have some 4500k 90CRI G3’s that look terrible both indoors and out. The main beam is more like 5000k, and the spill closer to 3500k and a nasty green tint. The L2’s would have to be much much better for me to consider them in a reflector light.

I really hope this style of LED isn’t the new norm just for more output.

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Sadly I think this is an effect of “flipping the die over”, aka not having bond wires. Since all the LED’s that have that also have tint shift, although nicha seems to have figured out how to minimize it.

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I'd hope the nasty green tint is more a result of the true tint of the LED, hhmm, 4500K is maybe an E4 kit, so maybe it's a nasty 4C tint? We are rolling the dice with the tint on these E3, E4, E5 kit ratings.

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Tom E wrote:

I’d hope the nasty green tint is more a result of the true tint of the LED, hhmm, 4500K is maybe an E4 kit, so maybe it’s a nasty 4C tint? We are rolling the dice with the tint on these E3, E4, E5 kit ratings.


I’d agree but the nasty green on my G3 was only the spill. Otherwise the center beam was mostly acceptable, though not actually 4500k. These are from Cutter, so no question of accurate bin reporting either.

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Texas_Ace wrote:
Sadly I think this is an effect of “flipping the die over”, aka not having bond wires. Since all the LED’s that have that also have tint shift, although nicha seems to have figured out how to minimize it.

My theory:
It is not the flipping of the die that does this, I think, but the type of phosfor, Cree used to have very fine-grained phosfor layers and was not very good in pleasant tints and better CRI, now their tints are improving and that coincides with rougher, more loose phosfor layers, that also are better in photon extraction at high angles (these angles in the old type of phosfor layer emitted much less light, photons were at the exit reflected back into the die, which was enhanced by dedoming the led) unfortunately that light at high angles has a higher proportion of longer wavelength photons and it creates the huge ugly yellow-ish corona around the hotspot (which is not spill light but light coming from the deepest part of the reflector).

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