Efficiency Copper Lumintop Tool, Worm, Maratac, ReyLight

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sbslider
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Thanks for the explanation!

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Justintoxicated
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Mine was about dead by the 35 minute mark...

 

Using ceiling bounce smartphone lux meter it started at 20 lux on high.

At about 20 minutes lux had dropped to 16.

At 25 minutes it was reading 12

And by 30 mins it was register 0 (light was still on, just not enough light for my phone to measure bouncing off ceiling).

 

 

Guess I have the bad driver...

jon_slider
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Justintoxicated wrote:

Mine was about dead by the 35 minute mark…



Guess I have the bad driver…


yes, sounds like you have the normal Tool driver that is rated for 30 minutes
curious what type of battery you tested, and what type of light and LED.. guessing its a Tool of some sort
Justintoxicated
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Copper tool w/ nichia 219b

The Battery was a new eneloop (recharged) from Costco.  One of those new Silvery ones if it makes any difference.

jon_slider
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Justintoxicated wrote:

Copper tool w/ nichia 219b


The Battery was a new eneloop (recharged) from Costco.  One of those new Silvery ones if it makes any difference.


thanks, my Copper Tool w Nichia is the same as yours

Below is an unusual one, a Maratac with a large button driver, like my Worm. They run for an hour instead of half an hour, on a regular eneloop.. (750mah), as opposed to 900mah for the Pro, not sure of the mah of the costco version, but no matter, I just wanted to make sure you had not tested with Alkaline)

http://budgetlightforum.com/comment/1097100#comment-1097100

Coppet wrote:
I was out this morning and bought me a set of 4 new white Eneloops

I think I get lucky with the Maratac driver, I gave it a try with a full loaded Eneloop and the Maratac runs for 42 min. with constant brightness. After this its getting darker and runs till 55 min….
Maratac AAA 3.5

Cu with Nichia constant brightness: 30 min. and then getting darker, starts flashing always faster (!) after 35 min…
Lumintop Tool Cu with Cree

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I was planning to put a fet driver in mine tonight,  Not sure is the 219b will survive a 10440?

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some people use LiIon without changing the driver. I have not heard of the Nichia having a problem

http://budgetlightforum.com/comment/1074680#comment-1074680

chinooker wrote:
Well, I just received my Nichia Cu Tool…
Works fine with efest 10440, all three modes, tho low isn’t really “low”

with Cree LED:

djozz wrote:
on an Efest 10440 I get med116lm-low41lm-high287lm.

I calculate based on that the Nichia would be about med 65 lm, low, 25 lm, high 210 lm.

disclaimer, there is no built in overdischarge protection for LiIon, and the driver is not officially rated for the voltage

Justintoxicated
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So I replaced my driver with one from MTN.  

 

I added some mass to the pill by cutting some chunks of copper from a wire and soldering them to the underside of the pill.  There is some kinda coating and the wire didn't want to stick but I scuffed it up a bit and got it hot and it sorta stuck to it eventually. If I do this next time I will sand the coating off the inside of the pill first.

 

Using Guppydrive Rev2 I selected mode 12 ML - 5% - 15% - 50% - 70% - 100% | No Memory

The driver isn't working well with the LED although it's only a 10440, with a fresh battery the led will color shift and dim.  It only really gains brightness up to about medium (50% power).   70% appears the same and it dims and color shifts at 100%.

 

I may replace with either a 2700k or 3500k 219c 92+ cri, or a 3000k 319a 80+ cri.

 

Bummer though I really like the tint of the 219b in it.  Since I moved slightly off topic.  Here is a picture of the top of inefficient driver that was in my copper tool. 

 

 

 

 

 

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Great posting. Now we need to see how efficient one looks like.
Anyone willing to open his light?
Mike

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jon_slider
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I am Happily surprised to report the latest Maratac Cu w Nichia has a more efficient driver than my CuTool

Maratac w N219b left, CuWorm right:

in the above chart the worm data was from a prior run, so the test was ended sooner than the test I just added for the CuMaratac w 219b

here is an earlier test of the worm and a CuReylight Tool, the new Maratac is more efficient than the Tool in this chart:

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test data from two different runs, merged, you can see the new Maratac has a driver that stays Higher Longer

sbslider
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Seemed like it would be good to post this data here also. Data taken on my brass worm. There is discussions on CPF that the performance seen above is not regulation, but just the behavior of a Nimh battery.

Data two batteries, both at 1.45V. Both provided 1.1A of current to the driver in high mode, slowly increasing, for the first minute or so. Then the current jumped up to 2A and started slowly decreasing. I don’t know alot about Nimh battery characteristics, but I suspect the driver on high for my worm IS regulated, and that the regulation input threshold is crossed and the light performance changes drastically after that.

One more data point – another, newer eneloop that had finished charging in the past half hour. current in high mode started at 1.05A, and slowly increased to 1.35A over about 5 minutes. Then current jumped to 1.95A, I stopped testing. Further confirmation that the Worm is regulating, at least somewhat, early in the eneloop battery life. Also think I figured out how to test this at work simply. Hope to dry run today with the Worm.

One thing I wonder is, if there is regulation, why did they set it where it is? Alkalines will never really regulate with this design, their impedance is too high at these current levels. Eneloops don’t take advantage of this, as their voltage is lower than the set point for the majority of their operating time. And who would design a light around lithium primaries? Finally, if it was for rechargeable lithiums, which the manufacturers say are not compatible, 1.35V is ridiculously below their operating range. It may just be a by product of what ever sort of controller being used.

GOOD TEST SETUP UPDATE – Digital display lab power supply with fairly short wires for leads. I believe the previous testing was distorted due to the current meter impedance.

Brass worm data
Voltage (V) Current High (A) Current Med (A)
1.5__________0.73__________ 0.160
1.4__________ 0.80__________ 0.173
1.3__________ 0.90__________ 0.187
1.2__________ 1.02__________ 0.203
1.1__________ 1.23__________ 0.237
1.0 __________ 1.65__________ 0.25?

Sorry jon_slider, not sure how to get a graph and embed it without going through an external website, which is a PITA. Data summary is that the power demanded from the power supply goes up about 25% as the voltage drops from 1.5V to 1.0V. The power increase in medium mode is more dramatic, roughly 2x. But since eneloops are more like current sources, not such a huge deal.

I also note that on the high mode the current drawn from the supply decreases a bit as everything warms up, which I suspect is an artifact of a constant voltage on the LED and LED efficiency increasing as it warms up. But that is just my guess. I did note the current in low mode varied from the low 0.02xA area to a bit above 0.03xA as the voltage decreased. Note the “x” is just a number that I did not record.

I conclude the Brass Lumintop Worm is regulated in some fashion. I suspect the increase in power as the input voltage decreases is due to conversion inefficiencies of the driver as the current to it increases, but that is just an educated guess. Look forward to seeing if the Maratac rev 4 is the same.

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sbslider
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I have tested a copper Maratac AAA and a copper Tool. I have found that for run time on high, they are both comparable to my brass worm, around 40 minutes. On medium mode I found the Maratac to start dimming around 3 hours 40 minutes, while the Worm starts dimming right at 4 hours.

I did not reread this thread, but I think my experience with the copper tool is different than most reported. I purchased my Tool a little over a month ago from GearBest on sale. I bought 4 of them, gave one to my son for a birthday present, sold two others, and have one more still. Likely will sell it also, as I have a copper an brass light already, as well as an aluminum LD01. I personally likey twisties better than clickies.

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Justintoxicated
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sbslider wrote:
I have tested a copper Maratac AAA and a copper Tool. I have found that for run time on high, they are both comparable to my brass worm, around 40 minutes. On medium mode I found the Maratac to start dimming around 3 hours 40 minutes, while the Worm starts dimming right at 4 hours. I did not reread this thread, but I think my experience with the copper tool is different than most reported. I purchased my Tool a little over a month ago from GearBest on sale. I bought 4 of them, gave one to my son for a birthday present, sold two others, and have one more still. Likely will sell it also, as I have a copper an brass light already, as well as an aluminum LD01. I personally likey twisties better than clickies.

 

40 minutes of constant brightness?  or 40 minutes runtime?  The good drivers will do 40-50+ minutes and hardly drop in brightness at all according to the chart on page 1.  The bad driver will be about dead at about around 40 minutes and will slowly reduce in brightness the entire time.

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Justintoxicated wrote:

40 minutes of constant brightness?  or 40 minutes runtime?  The good drivers will do 40-50+ minutes and hardly drop in brightness at all according to the chart on page 1.  The bad driver will be about dead at about around 40 minutes and will slowly reduce in brightness the entire time.


40 minutes of constant brightness. I suspect the difference between 40 to 50 minutes could be batteries, although I have run the Worm twice on high to about 45 minutes before fading. All three definitely hold constant brightness up to 38 minutes, where the Tool started to fade. The Maratac faded around 40 minutes, and the Worm around 45 minutes.

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At long last here is a picture of the drivers of the three lights I have:

Left to right is Worm, Maratac, and Tool. I will confirm with words that the details not captured in the photo due to the angle are present in all three boards, primarily two vias that are not visible as they are obscured by the head. One via visible on Tool, one visible on Worm and Maratac, both present on all three.

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I have realized that some folks may not understand what a via is. This is not the small coffee packet available from a major coffee supplier. A via is a small hole in a circuit board used to pass electrical signals between the layers of the board. When I look at the Maratac driver (center above) oriented as in the picture above, I see 5 on the left side and 3 on the right side. Look for the small dark dots. If you have a driver in your hand you can see there are two more on the right not visible in the picture above. The lighter colored, areas are copper, and you can see around the edge of the board the actual copper where the light body connects the battery negative to the driver. Most of the board has some masking material on it to prevent solder bridges when the board is assembled. The darker areas of the board are places where the copper has been removed to create different and isolated paths for the current to flow.

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I would like to buy a AAA tool with nichia (preferably TI), which version will have the highest chance of being efficient?

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I am not aware of any difference in efficiency between the Nichia vs Cree LED equipped models. The inefficiency is not LED specific.

The TiTool was the first light I became aware of as using an inefficient driver. No One has reported an efficient TiTool.

The majority of Copper Tools reported have been inefficient, but some are efficient. I do not know any way, or source, that will guarantee you can buy one of the efficient ones. For example I bought a copper Tool from Gearbest that is not efficient. sbslider bought the same light, from the same place, around same time and he reports it is efficient.

All the reported Nichia Worms have been efficient (not because of the Nichia, that is a light that only offers Nichia in a particular version, from a particular point in time, they are the Copper, Brass, and Stainless ones, you can also get them with Cree LED)

My Copper Maratac w Nichia is efficient. The driver is slightly different in performance, than my worm.

Im hoping the efficient driver starts appearing in other Tools.. Im waiting for someone to test a Brass Tool, whose prototype used an Inefficient driver, to find out if the production model uses an Efficient driver, like the Maratac w Nichia.

If you want a TiTool, buy one anyway. The efficiency issue is mostly on High mode, and if you use Eneloops, its almost a non-issue.

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I’d like to report that my newly arrived Tool Aluminum 219b from Banggood has the efficient driver. Flat output of ~70 lumens at least for the first ten minutes it’s been running.

edit: well, this is interesting, did another run with a fan and now it is acting like my inefficient Tool Ti…

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maukka
thank you for all the testing you do
I have been tempted by the Nichia Tool in Aluminum as it was on sale recently, but, none of the Copper Tools I have bought from Banggood nor Gearbest, have been efficient, so I have stopped buying them. And I have gifted all my Copper Tools so am tempted to buy another.

Since Im interested in the efficiency and flat regulation, I had hoped the driver in the Maratac w Nichia, which IS efficient, would appear in the Brass Tool. Unfortunately early reports from people who received the production model from Massdrop, indicate the Brass Tool is not efficient either.

so, I just bought another Maratac Copper AAA w Nichia and NoPWM as a backup. I have been carrying one since March, and it is my favorite off the shelf AAA w nichia atm.

I always look forward to your test results, thank you for all the time you take to share your tests. Imo your tests of CRI are unique, no other reviewer offers the info you do.

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My new brass tool drops to about half output in 34 minutes and falls quickly from there. So, inefficient drivers in this light. Battery was down to .91 volts and would not turn the light on at that point.

EDC rotation:
FW1A, LH351D 4000k (second favorite)
FW3A, LH351D 3500k
FW3A, SST20 FD2 4000k
FW3A, Nichia 4000k sw40 r9080 (favorite light!)
FW3A, Cree XP-L Hi 5A3
Emisar D4V2, SST20 4000k
S2+, XM-L2 T6 4C

maukka
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What an interesting driver. Better when I let it heat up without a fan. Goes bonkers when it cools down. Verified all of the runtimes twice with a different Eneloop Pro.

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maukka wrote:
Goes bonkers when it cools down.

yeow!
note to self, don’t use a fan.. LOL
thank you for the detailed chart
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Yea, it’s like a thermostat. Whenever it is cooled, it starts wasting energy to heat itself up. First time I’ve seen this sort of behavior. Efficiency without a fan is not that bad, since the Copper Tool does 53 lumen hours.

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maukka wrote:
the Copper Tool does 53 lumen hours.

your copper tool is not a typical example, most of the ones Ive seen tested act more like this

imo, only the Worm w Nichia and Copper Maratac w Nichia, are consistently efficient

I can’t make any sense of the differences in drivers in the Lumintop lineup over time

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Awesome deal. Doesn’t look like your referral link worked for me though. I know my Tool Ti 219 is one of my favorite lights. It’ll be interesting to compare it to the Cu version.

Also, interesting tests on the driver efficiency. I had no idea- might bump my worms up in my EDC rotation a little (though this L08 is working out very well so far).

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