Test / Review: (OLD) Panasonic NCR 18650A 3100mAh batteries $11.96 Protected and $9.97 Unprotected (OLD)

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ri chevy
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I also just purchased 3 of these batteries, and will compare with Callies Kustoms when I get them.  Sounds like a real good deal for these cells. 

russthetoolman
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ordered 3 unprotected and they are shipped, will post when I have news (facts)

benckie
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i ordered mine on the 16 Nov once here ill do a internal resistance check and mAh test to 3 volt

benckie
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Well I'm not impressed at all really. Ok I only brought two but was charged $3 usd each for shipping, no big deal the cost of a can of coke down under at a service station, they came loose no wrapping at all just rolling around loose in a padded letter.

Slow charge of 0.5 amps after being discharged to 3 volt at 0.5 amps I'm getting good results around 2900 mAh, but the kicker is with a 3 amp discharge test from 4.18 volt to 3.013 volt I'm getting 1229 mAh ouch on cell A in around 24 minuets.

Cell B discharged from 4.18v to 3.194 volt at 3amps I was not even able to extract more the 1000 mAh if fact i got less in 18 odd minuets, ok the batteries protection did kick in early on cell B but there is no way it would of out done cell A if it did discharge the extra 0.194 volt.

Panisonic say these can handle 2C discharges (6.2 amps) nope they can't, Panisonic say they can handle 1C charge rates (3.1 amps) nope they can't from 3.54 volt they jump straight to 4.19 volt at 3 amps my charger will start to limit the charge rate to 2.4 amps cause the cell jump to the termination voltage with in a minuet or so.

Internal resistance on cell A is 127 milliohms cell B 129 milliohms, but high for quilty panisonic cells so they will give lower tail cap readings say the the cheaper solarforce cells. Even the trustfire flames I tested with a 3 amp discharge give a 1000 more mAh then these.

Hank wants me to retest and take photo,s another 15 hours of testing per cell the remove the PCB,s then do the testing again, but I can tell from using Logveiw in my icharger atlest with cell A it's not the protection kicking in as the battery is dishcarging to 3.013 volt cell B it did kick in at 3.194 but the battery will not give 1000 + mAh in 0.194 volt it's just not possible.

Im at work right now I have done my normal charge and discharge tests with the data tables and I will post them up tonight after work and do more testing for Hank and post my results but at this stage I'm an un happy customer and I feel I wasted $30 usd on these I could of brought 6 good trustfire flames for that price or two redilast 2600 mAh that I really like.

benckie
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18650 Panasonic NCR 18650A 3100mAh protected battery Test from intl-outdoor.com

Cost $29.92 USD delivered to Australia, shipping took 21 days, first impressions i only brought two but was charged $3 usd each for shipping website said only $3 USD, no big deal the cost of a can of coke down under at a service station, they came loose no wrapping at all just rolling around loose in a padded letter ?

Out of the bag

Cell A 3.61 volt internal resistance 127 milliohms (bit high for a panisonic cell)

Cell B 3.61 volt internal resistance 129 milliohms (bit high for a panisonic cell)

Due to the internal resistance being higher then my solarforce and redilast cells these give slightly lower tail cap current readings.

mAh test

Cell A dishcarged @ 0.5 amps to 3 volt and recharged to 4.2 volt @ 0.5 amp

Cell A discharged from 4.2 volt to 3 volt @ 3 amps

They did not perform well at all, for example my trustfire flames give between 1950 to 2150 mAh with a 3 amp discharge test to 3 volt and cost 1/3 the price, these panisonic cells should be able to give 3.1 amps for 1 hour on a perfect world, but this cell only managed under 25 mins i was expecting it to last 50 mins and give around 2500 mAh atlest after my first results.

Cell B dishcarged @ 0.5 amps to 3 volt and recharged to 4.2 volt @ 0.5 amp

 

Cell B discharged from 4.2 volt to 3 volt @ 3 amps

Ok the battery protection kicked in early on this battery @ 3.194 volt as you can see, but i honestly feel it would not of given any more then another 400 mAh if it was to fully discharge to 3 volt, so this cell also performed poorly in my book,s, these panisonic cells should be able to give 3.1 amps for 1 hour in a perfect world, but this cell only managed under 25 mins i was expecting it to last 50 mins and give around 2500 mAh after my first tests.

The cell,s i got will not handle 6 amp discharges as you can see as the PCB,s trip and i think the cells would fall flat (will test this) and they do not handle fast charges either, panisonic say these can handle 1C (3.1 amps) charge rates but i can not even push the charge past 2.4 amps from a resting voltage of 3.54 volt as they jump straight to 4.19 volt and the charge winds down as its pritty much at termination voltage they dont stay on charge long enough to take any real mAh and yes i have checked the calibration of my icharger.

I have emailed Hank from intl-outdoor.com

Hank wrote:

Actually we are worried about the manufacturing process and how is this affecting the cells for all the clients. We do not have testing capabilities and have to rely on what the factory tells us. 

 
We are a company based in Nanjing and most of the products and batteries are done in Shenzhen


Now i thought panisonic 3100 cells where made in Japan, Hank asked me to perform some test take some pictures and he will reward me, but while making this post i recived an email from Hank at intl-outdoor.com saying they need proof, photo,s they can not go to the factory with txt and then i got a full refund for the total amount, um not sure if Hank read post number 66 on this thread or not for the change of mind ?

Hank as also asked me to write my name on the cells and ship them back using the fastest method i can and they will send me the money, i know it would cost more then double what i payed for the batteries to send back so i most likely will not bother.

Some will say good service or some might say post # 66 was a gentle persuasion as his tune changed pritty quick, but either way the batteries i recived are not upto scratch in my opinion and the 2400 mAh trustfire flames test better under load sofar, i know i have just got my full refund but i will continue the testing for the benifit of our forum members as i feel as fellow torch freaks you all should know as these are not $6 usd a pair to take a gamble on.

Cell B charged @ 1 amp from the 3 amp discharge test (after resting over night) then discharged @ 3 amps.

As you can see the battery protection kicked in 0.175 volt to early but the battery would not of taken much more the 350 mAh if it discharged the extra 0.175 volt. I took some pictures but it was hard with the ichager flashing connection break down, but you can see the mAh and the dishcarge time match my logveiw data table from above.

 

 

Cell A charged @ 1 amp from the 3 amp discharge test (after resting over night) then discharged @ 3 amps.

 

This cell has picked up and the resting voltage on the charger was 3.61 volt as the battery had been sitting on the charger a while with the voltage climbing back up (this is normal) before i took the picture, but still under performing i think for a 3100 mAh cell, we will see how they go after more testing.

A quick description of the above tables

Zenit [s] is time of the charge, it is updated every 2 seconds.

Input [V] is how much volts my power supply is giving my Ichager 106B+

Voltage accu [V] is battery voltage

Current [A] is how many amps the charger is charging or discharging the battery or batteries.

Capacity [mAh] is how long the battery will last under load. A 2900 mAh battery should be able to give 2.9 amps for one hour till empty.

I will do more 3 amp discharge test with the wrappers and IC,s (PCB) removed and will post a data table and a pictures of both cells.

qandeel
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benckie

Thanks for spending your time and efforts to enlighten us. I was thinking of ordering those batteries. Now I'm happily applying brakes :bigsmile:

Many thanks

 عُمَانْ

ChibiM
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Oh boy Oh boy.. I just ordered one 2 days ago...

(I thought I would have at least 1 really good cell with this to compare all my other 18650 cells to, but if this isnt the "king" I was hoping for, its a real pity...especially for the price paid... )

ri chevy
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Wow.  Very interesting.  Thank you for taking the time to do a good review. 

2100
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Benckie, if you'd dig out the Sky Ray 3800 triple XM-L thread, i tested the Panasonic 2900s in it for quite a few cycles.  As you know, the light draws about 2.6A with freshly charged cells and then about 3A for quite a while before ramping up all the way till about 4.2A before low voltage cut.   It consistently gives me 60 minutes tested multiple times.   This is before the NCR18650A 3100s was released to us hobbyists, before Callies Kustom.

Compared to the XTAR 2600s, these are 53 mins.  Solarforce 2400 are 50 mins.  TF Flames about 45 mins.

This is in addition to the 1A tests i did on the charger.

Not sure what went wrong in your case, maybe need to rip out the protection.

 

Other cases include 40 minutes of runtime in a TK70 with 2 x NCR18650 2900s.  (Pok probably would know because it's done by a Thai flashaholic)  That is approx 4.7 amps of discharge, i measured 4.5 amps with the beefy 32600s which i measured 5300mAh @ 1A and mitro measured i think 4.5Ah at 5 amps.

how2
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benckie if your not sending back the batteries I suggest that you open the battery up to see if it is a real Panasonic 3100 and video it as proof. Do this after your tests.

ri chevy
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Could it be that the battery uses a different protection circuit than the other NCR18650A cells? 

Hank Wang
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The Benckie's results also show the batteries are original and new, since the results at 0.5A down to 3V is 2940mAh.
Panasonic NCR18650A are rated 3100mah down to 2.5V so if the test at 0.5A is done down to 2.5V the capacity will be 3100mah.
So there is no doubt the cells are genuine. I just took off the pvc of one battery in stock for you to see.

We believe the PTC are blocking the currents to be drawn from the batteries.


 

https://intl-outdoor.com, Noctigon, Emisar, flashlight components.

how2
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Hank I must say that's good customer relations.

Hank you are probably right. Maybe it's better buying the unprotected version.

ri chevy
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Thanks for the clarification Hank.  I am just curious as to the wrapper underneath.  Why is it not wrapped in the original Panasonic factory wrap?  The same as in this link? 

http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-cgi/jvcr13pz.cgi?E+BA+3+ACA4001+NCR1...

Hikelite
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ri chevy wrote:

Thanks for the clarification Hank.  I am just curious as to the wrapper underneath.  Why is it not wrapped in the original Panasonic factory wrap?  The same as in this link? 

http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-cgi/jvcr13pz.cgi?E+BA+3+ACA4001+NCR1...

That is not the original Pansonic wrap on the link you have provided.  In fact none of those wrappers exist. These are industrial products not even Sanyo prints their name on the cells. Panasonic manufacture around 7-8 18650 cells. many not even listed on their website.

What I see provided by the Intl-O rep is the real wrap not what is not on the Panasonic website.

http://budgetlightforum.com/node/4008

 

ri chevy
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OK.  Thank you for the clarification Hikelite. 

benckie
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I'm at work now, but last night after the second 3 amp discharge I did a slow series balance charge of both cells @ 0.5 amps, so tonight when I get home I will do a 6 amp discharge test as the batteries are, as a forum member was told the protection units will give 6 amp discharges.

The I will remove there dresses (wrappers) and the battery protection and do the tests again, you can see from the data tables one PCB is kicking in early and because of this it is showing around 400 mAh lower then cell A but cell A is discharging down to 3 volt

Im thinking the cheap IC,s (PCB) could be adding to the higher internal resistance results of my test, but in the other hand only one PCB (IC) is tripping early, but I will remove both, I was going to give these to my old man for his work light I gave him so by removing the battery protection makes them uses less to me.

I have noticed very small gains in battery test with the bsttery protection units removed any way i will continue the testing but it takes time my wife, daughter and work comes first.

2100
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Well, no worries about the "protection" part too much.

Go to www.youtube.com and search for Panasonic 3100mAh.  xxllmm4 made a torture test video.  Charged to 4.3V and dead short (same goes for the 2200mAh half-IMR CGR18650CH). Of course care must still be taken, just that....you don't have to worry excessively as long as safe Li-ion handling is followed.

benckie
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Protection is important to me as giving batteries to an old man with a simple charger its a handy feature to have.

benckie
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6 amp discharge test from 4.18 volt to 3 volt (protected version)

Cell A

Cell B

I did not bother taking a picture of cell B but you get the idea, Cell A tripped the protection @ 3.39 amps and Cell B tripped the protection @ 3.11 amps. Cell B was the cell that was tripping early is the discharge test's with its low voltage protection kicking in.

I have removed the wrapper,s on the cells, they are well wrapped, nice and thick

With the (IC's) PCB's removed from each cell i noticed the PCB's only have one mosfet this would explane not being able to draw high currents from the batteries, the protection kicking in early and them not handling high charge rates, a good battery capible of a constant 3 amp discharge needs atlest 2 mosfets and cell capible of 6 amp dishcarge you would expect to have three, my trustfire flames have 2 mosfet,s and some of the ultrafire batteries ive pulled apart have one.

I would expect the cell,s will perform better and give a slightly higher current tail cap readings as i have noticed this with other cells with the protection circuts removed, i belive the internal resistance test will improve with the (IC's) PCB's removed, but the unprotected,s might not work in all flash lights due to the small button top on the positive side of the cells and the protected versions are pritty long and fat.

Cell A discharged from 4.18 volt to 3 volt @ 3 amps (Internal resistance 103 milliohms)

Cell B discharged from 4.18 volt to 3 volt @ 3 amps (Internal resistance 98 milliohms)

That is much better double my first discharge test,s, what i was expecting around abouts with the first 3 amp discharge test, people dont buy the protected version as that was really disapointing.

Normally in the last four battery test i only discharge twice and recharge once, but these cell,s ive been testing on this post now have been discharged and charged around 5 or 6 times now, if i had done this amount of charging and discharging on my other battery test's might of got higher readings.

Im only going to test down to 3 volts as while not every one will agree with this, i feel thats the most usible voltage range in my opinion and most of the lights i have brought (12) but most dim and loose light to me around 3 volt under load or go into some form of low voltage mode include my multi cell lights and becuase i have tested all other batteries down to 3 volt during my testing so ill try and keep it even.

 

A bit of a recap with other cells ive tested to compare the mAh with 3 amp discharging to 3 volt.

Trustfire flame 2400 mAh battery test 2041 mAh average. Minimal battery voltage the cell can go is 2.75 volt.

Hi-max 2600 mAh battery test 2301 mAh average. Minimal battery voltage the cell can go is 2.75 volt ?.

Solarforce 2400 mAh battery test 2096 mAh average. Minimal battery voltage the cell can go is 2.5 volt.

Redilast 2600 mAh battery test 2401 mAh average. Minimal battery voltage the cell can go is 2.75 volt.

NCR18650A 3100 mAh battery test 2485 mAh average. Minimal battery voltage the cell can go is 2.5 volt (with no battery protection).

Tail Cap Current Draw Comparisons

Test 1 Ultrafire Cree T6 3-Mode Memory LED Drop-in Module

solarforce 2400 mAh (A) 1.67 amps

solarforce 2400 mAh (B) 1.67 amps

Ultrafire (grey) 2400 mAh (A) 1.23 amps (from buyincoins they only take 900 mAh)

Ultrafire (grey) 2400 mAh (B) 0.7 amps (from buyincoins they only take 900 mAh)

Trustfire Flames 2400 mAh (A) 1.51 amps

Trustfire Flames 2400 mAh (B) 1.50 amps

Redilast 2600 mAh (A) 1.70 amps

Redilast 2600 mAh (B) 1.71 amps

Hi-max 2600 mAh (A) 1.44 amps

Hi-max 2600 mAh (B) 1.45 amps

Panasonic NCR18650A (A) 1.69 amps

Panasonic NCR18650A (A) 1.72 amps

Test 2 TrustFire TR-3T6 Triple XM-L T6 5-Modes Memory LED Flashlight (3x18650)

tested with 2 x 18650,s

solarforce 2400 mAh  2.46 amps

Trustfire Flames 2400 mAh 2.51 amps

Ultrafire (grey) 2400 mAh 0.00 amps as they just tripped on high.

Redilast 2600 mAh 2.5 amps

Hi-max 2600 mAh 2.51 amps

Panasonic NCR18650A  2.38 amps

 

Test 3 TR-1200

tested with 2 x 18650,s

solarforce 2400 mAh  1.66 amps

Trustfire Flames 2400 mAh 1.72 amps

Ultrafire (grey) 2400 mAh (A) 0.00 amps as they just tripped on high

Redilast 2600 mAh 1.74 amps

Hi-max 2600 mAh  1.81 amps

Panasonic NCR18650A  1.61 amps

Previous battery tests

a link to my trustfire flame 2400 mAh battery test

http://budgetlightforum.com/node/5230

a link to my solarforce 2400 mAh battery test

http://budgetlightforum.com/node/5771

a link to my redilast 2600 mAh battery test.

http://budgetlightforum.com/node/5854

a link to my hi-max 2600 mAh battery test.

http://budgetlightforum.com/node/5919

My sugestion is, dont buy these Panasonic NCR18650A 3100 mAh in protected form untill more testing has been done, trustfire flames to me are the best bag for back and if you want some thing with well matched with low internal resistance and good protection spend a bit more on the redilast 2600 i feel they have the most usible voltage IMO or if you want some thing middle of the price range go Hi-max.

I would like to thank Hank from intl-outdoor.com for the good fast communication the full refund, i belive the seller and the cells are genuine, just a a pitty about (IC's) PCB's on my cells, maybe i was just unlucky but it would be good if more users could do discharge test,s above 1 amp. 

Chicago X
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Thanks very much for the detailed, time-consuming writeup.

http://wardogsmakingithome.org/index.html

War Dogs, Making it Home - Rescue Dogs for Returning Vets

benckie
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no problem i hope it is clear and makes sence.

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So does that mean others will get a refund or partial refund from Hank? I bought 3

 

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums

benckie
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Good question, i did not ask Hank for a refund i just sent him an email regarding my first 3 amp discharge test's and that i was an unhappy customer. I was going to do all test Hank asked of me, but i was fully refunded before i was able to post up any results, maybe post 66 was to harsh and it might of upset Hank me posting my results on here. I did not mean any harm, just disapointed with the first discharge results and the PCB's.

ANTI-NOWHERE-LEAGUE
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Thing is Benckie I also live in the real world regards batteries for business and pleasure torch use where they need to draw 2.8-3.0 A in a single battery X-ML and what capacity a battery has at a 0.5A or 1A load is completely useless.

eg. this is useless too,

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2x-Panasonic-3100mAh-NCR-18650A-3-7v-batteries...

I use Multiplex chargers and auto shut-down drivers and for cycle life and actual recharge capacity recovered for a long term reliability the Sanyo and Samsung 2600 have never failed.

I am still waiting for a load of those MF TF 2400's to arrive to see how they compare because for me an odd 400ma for twice or thrice or more the buck ain't gonna happen when we can change a battery in 15 seconds and get way more run time:)

I scored some other stuff and ten Sanyo's off Hank and the bike light to checkout and my first thoughts are that the dodgy non-waterproof connectors will need sorting and then secondly how dodgy the mount and battery side of things is going to be down actual mountains, I've got some ideas for an alloy mount anyway..................but we'll see when they arrive, might use Li-po.

M.

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The batteries arrived yesterday. unfortunately not fit into the NiteCore Tiny Monster TM-11: (too long: (

Noctigon Meteor M43 

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Olli1783 wrote:

The batteries arrived yesterday. unfortunately not fit into the NiteCore Tiny Monster TM-11: (too long: (

Selfbuilt said in this review that the TM11 is having problmes with long cells. Actually Sysmax designed the flashlight to fit well with their Jetbeam cells. See his youtube review for that.

Hikelite
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ANTI-NOWHERE-LEAGUE wrote:

Thing is Benckie I also live in the real world regards batteries for business and pleasure torch use where they need to draw 2.8-3.0 A in a single battery X-ML and what capacity a battery has at a 0.5A or 1A load is completely useless.

 

What is real world for eveybody. I've seen Benckie putting a stop every time on 3V. What's real about that?. Many flashlights stop at 2.7V. So do I say it's real to ignore that I can have more runtime donw to 2.75V or 2.5V.

My Shadow TC6's driver is designed to cut at 5V. So yes, some 2.5V cells are be good for me, or others using this flashlight. I many times use it on low and medium so i need longer runtimes.

So from my point of view, I need tests done for 0.2A, 0.5A and 1A. That why I find 2100's test for the Panny useful.  

 

ANTI-NOWHERE-LEAGUE
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If you say so.

M.

2100
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ANTI-NOWHERE-LEAGUE wrote:

Thing is Benckie I also live in the real world regards batteries for business and pleasure torch use where they need to draw 2.8-3.0 A in a single battery X-ML and what capacity a battery has at a 0.5A or 1A load is completely useless.

Hi bro,

Technically you are correct for your described need....but then the Crelant 7G5, Shadow TC6, SR51, BD-4, STL-V2, DBS 3SMs, CQG Magic Wand, Catapult, T40CS, V60C, TK35/50/60, Masterpiece Pro-1, multi 16340/18350 capable flashlights and many others can't be useless.  Smile    I have quite a number of these lights and others as well.   We also use lights for commercial/professional use in another country, and for my use it's for pleasure.

Testing cells at 3A is only part of the whole story.  How about for one of my flashlight, coz it discharges at 5 amps.  3A can't be useless....  Stuff from the commercial custom mods/Elektrolumens/Lambda regularly go above that even.

2 nights ago i was modding my HID, so i needed quite a number of hours of good light.  The CQG extreme runtime (3 x 18650) proved quite useful.  Running > 1 cell enables you not to gun the cell too hard.

There are also very good lights from Jetbeam/Sunwayman/Fenix/Xeno/Elzetta, expensive yes...that have XM-Ls or XP-Gs that do below 2A.

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