Test / Review: (OLD) Panasonic NCR 18650A 3100mAh batteries $11.96 Protected and $9.97 Unprotected (OLD)

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Hank Wang
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The factory has deceived us, we paid for performance PTC but instead it seems they have used fewer components in the PTCs.
We had some much trust in these protected batteries that we have contacted HKJ and send him for free our batteries to be tested. HKJ can confirm that. That is what we told some clients to be as our official report, where we were expecting very good results. And we wanted a top quality tester to do it.


The Panasonic NCR18650A cells are new and genuine and very good cells.

Our conclusion is that the protected cells are usable to currents up to 2A. Even better if the cells are used in a series where the current to the led is 3A because then the current taken from each cell is 1.5A. In these situations the protected cells will perform well.   Without the PTC the cells will be able to sustain larger current, because the PTC will not block them.

We have said to Benckie that we would reward him if he would do the things we asked, in our first reply to him. That's why we refunded him, to actually make the time to do it and we thank him for doing the tests. 

https://intl-outdoor.com, Noctigon, Emisar, flashlight components.

ANTI-NOWHERE-LEAGUE
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2100 wrote:

ANTI-NOWHERE-LEAGUE wrote:

Thing is Benckie I also live in the real world regards batteries for business and pleasure torch use where they need to draw 2.8-3.0 A in a single battery X-ML and what capacity a battery has at a 0.5A or 1A load is completely useless.

Hi bro,

Technically you are correct for your described need....but then the Crelant 7G5, Shadow TC6, SR51, BD-4, STL-V2, DBS 3SMs, CQG Magic Wand, Catapult, T40CS, V60C, TK35/50/60, Masterpiece Pro-1, multi 16340/18350 capable flashlights and many others are all useless?    I have quite a number of these lights and others as well.   We also use lights for commercial/professional use in another country, and for my use it's for pleasure.

Testing cells at 3A is only part of the whole story.  How about for one of my flashlight, coz it discharges at 5 amps.  3A can't be useless....  Stuff from the mods/Elektrolumens/Lambda.

There are also very good lights from Jetbeam/Sunwayman/Fenix/Xeno/Elzetta, expensive yes...that have XM-Ls or XP-Gs that do below 2A.

Not quite sure what you are on about dude.

As for discharging to 2.5v with a low current most chargers will not initiate a recharge.

Or am I not getting what this dude is on about either?

"What is real world for eveybody. I've seen Benckie putting a stop every time on 3V. What's real about that?. Many flashlights stop at 2.7V. So do I say it's real to ignore that I can have more runtime donw to 2.75V or 2.5V.

My Shadow TC6's driver is designed to cut at 5V. So yes, some 2.5V cells are be good for me, or others using this flashlight. I many times use it on low and medium so i need longer runtimes.

So from my point of view, I need tests done for 0.2A, 0.5A and 1A. That why I find 2100's test for the Panny useful.  "quote"

HKJ
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Hank Wang wrote:
The factory has deceived us, we paid for performance PTC but instead it seems they have used fewer components in the PTCs.

You probably mean the PCB, that is the circuit at the back of the cell. The PTC is mounted inside the cell and in front, together with the CID.

Hank Wang wrote:

We had some much trust in these protected batteries that we have contacted HKJ and send him for free our batteries to be tested. HKJ can confirm that. That is what we told some clients to be as our official report, where we were expecting very good results. And we wanted a top quality tester to do it.

I have already talked about the cells in this thread, but have not received them yet.

 

 

My website with reviews of many chargers and batteries (More than 1000): https://lygte-info.dk/

Hikelite
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Look at the cut-off voltages tests done by 2100. I thank him again, for one of the most useful info ever.

http://budgetlightforum.com/node/6123

Think about the CPF guys which like only moonlights and firefly modes, so there no need for invoking reality when the CPF has 130.000 members.

edc
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Well - I just tore the protection of one of mine. 

 

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums

2100
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ANTI-NOWHERE-LEAGUE wrote:

As for discharging to 2.5v with a low current most chargers will not initiate a recharge.

I have quite a few chargers, the Trustfire TR-001, UF WF-188, a few cheapo chargers (from my lasers) and a hobby charger.  All are ok, the lowest i have gone is 1.7V.  (disclaimer - don't try that yourself!  LOL! Sealed)

PS.  Posted earlier in this thread, and also the Sky Ray 3800 thread, where i tested the runtimes of 2 x 2900mAh NCR18650 in a real world Sky Ray 3800.  That one draws 2.6 amps and goes as far up as 4.2 amps, in reality.  It has low-voltage cut for the driver so it's quite convenient to test.

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Hikelite wrote:

Olli1783 wrote:

The batteries arrived yesterday. unfortunately not fit into the NiteCore Tiny Monster TM-11: (too long: (

Selfbuilt said in this review that the TM11 is having problmes with long cells. Actually Sysmax designed the flashlight to fit well with their Jetbeam cells. See his youtube review for that.

 

yes but Redilast 3100 works fine! 

Noctigon Meteor M43 

Hikelite
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The Xtar WP2 II can charge from below 2V. UltraFire WF-139 can do below 2.5V charging also. In HKJ's review you can see 2.25V

2100
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Olli1783 wrote:

Bro! I see your "6 amps DRY".  Try not to gun it that far up with fully charged batteries... hehe, not even at Yakutsk. No use, spoils your cells faster, etc...  Gross overdriving is more for HIDs and incans.  HIDs LOVE heat.  (provided you don't care about longevity, but no issue of coz for flashaholics short playtimes).

ANTI-NOWHERE-LEAGUE
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edc wrote:

Well - I just tore the protection of one of mine. 

Laughing

M.

2100
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ANTI-NOWHERE-LEAGUE wrote:

Talking about hobby chargers dude, unless they have a nickel mode to get a voltage above 3v they won't work.

Benckie's and my stuff have the nickel modes but many do not.

Most won't discharge lithium below 3v at any current which is why he cuts off at 3v.

M.

I have to admit, i "only" have a IMAX B6 so i am limited to 1A.  Mainly that is for recharging my Pb because the stock ones take too long....i wasn't too keen on iChargers as they are over 70 bucks and i don't do RC.  It's bad for regular Pb (non fancy AGM or what fancy types) of course to do above 0.3C but heck they are so cheap (15 bucks for a 7.2AH and yes it's a fresh one with ~ that capacity).  From what i see on hobby sites, most entry level models have NiMH and Pb modes...so below 3V discharge is not an issue.  Most flashlights do go below 3V per cell esp for 2 x 18650 lights and they don't dim much, if you don't believe my few tens of flashlights, check out HKJ, he probably has EVERYTHING in the market.  LOL!  Sealed

PS. I know there are some which do specifically Li only...but RC do make use if NiMH as well. If you ask Lambda, NiMH is not inferior to Li-ion.

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2100
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Hikelite wrote:

http://budgetlightforum.com/node/4008

There were a couple of good guys, i think DasFriek, who tests and includes graphs as they can log....wonder where are they.   Some good guys like Agenthex has left too!

ANTI-NOWHERE-LEAGUE
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2100 wrote:

Hikelite wrote:

http://budgetlightforum.com/node/4008

There were a couple of good guys, i think DasFriek, who tests and includes graphs as they can log....wonder where are they.   Some good guys like Agenthex has left too!

They are a good value charger, must have sold millions, but like you say only discharge at up to the standard budget charger 1A. 

Have to get Benckie to do a discharge at 3A to 2.5v using a nickel program!!!

M.

Hank Wang
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HKJ wrote:

Hank Wang wrote:
The factory has deceived us, we paid for performance PTC but instead it seems they have used fewer components in the PTCs.

You probably mean the PCB, that is the circuit at the back of the cell. The PTC is mounted inside the cell and in front, together with the CID.

Hank Wang wrote:

We had some much trust in these protected batteries that we have contacted HKJ and send him for free our batteries to be tested. HKJ can confirm that. That is what we told some clients to be as our official report, where we were expecting very good results. And we wanted a top quality tester to do it.

I have already talked about the cells in this thread, but have not received them yet. 

 

Thanks! Yes, I mean PCB.

https://intl-outdoor.com, Noctigon, Emisar, flashlight components.

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Hank Wang wrote:

Our conclusion is that the protected cells are usable to currents up to 2A. Even better if the cells are used in a series where the current to the led is 3A because then the current taken from each cell is 1.5A. In these situations the protected cells will perform well.   Without the PTC the cells will be able to sustain larger current, because the PTC will not block them.

Hank,

Unless electrical physics has changed since I went to college, I think you mean two batteries in parrallel the amps from each cell will drop to 1/2 of the amps the LED pulls.  Your example is for a constant current draw which works out as follows:

Ex. :  Control 1 battery -  3V (I chose a round voltage for simplicity, think CR123)  @3 amp

         2 Batteries in series - 6V @ 3 amps each cell

         2 Batteries in parrallel - 3V @ 1.5 amps each cell (3 amp total)

 

Now, you are correct if the you have a constant power draw by the LED.  A series battery installation will give twice the voltage which would only require 1/2 the amperage to provide the same amount of power.

Hank Wang
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jonhobart wrote:

Now, you are correct if the you have a constant power draw by the LED.  A series battery installation will give twice the voltage which would only require 1/2 the amperage to provide the same amount of power.

Yes, for example the Shadow TC6 needs two batteries. The current drawn by the driver is 2.6A-2.7A, and each battery will give half : 1.3A-1.35A

https://intl-outdoor.com, Noctigon, Emisar, flashlight components.

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I'll test to 2.5 volt if people want me to, 2100 has tested to 2.6 volt at 1 amp, so I dont see the need but I will do it but I'll do it at 3 amp.

Like I said I don't see the need to go past 3 volt as for my stuff I have all cuts out or dims around there and my multi cell lights go into low mode around 6 to 6.6 volt under load, so that's the reason why I stop at 3v.

Most batteries have a recommended 2.75 maxium discharge or low voltage cut around there the diffrence between 3 volt and 2.75 volt is very very slight with most cells.

The protection units with these sells from hank will not go past 3 volt any way so I don't see the big deal that's been made about me not testing them to 2.5 volt, as for the none protect versions they have been tested many times.

I've spent long enough on these cells just for you guys to bitch, but to keep you guys happy I spend some more time on them

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Hikelite wrote:

ANTI-NOWHERE-LEAGUE wrote:

Thing is Benckie I also live in the real world regards batteries for business and pleasure torch use where they need to draw 2.8-3.0 A in a single battery X-ML and what capacity a battery has at a 0.5A or 1A load is completely useless.

 

What is real world for eveybody. I've seen Benckie putting a stop every time on 3V. What's real about that?. Many flashlights stop at 2.7V. So do I say it's real to ignore that I can have more runtime donw to 2.75V or 2.5V.

My Shadow TC6's driver is designed to cut at 5V. So yes, some 2.5V cells are be good for me, or others using this flashlight. I many times use it on low and medium so i need longer runtimes.

So from my point of view, I need tests done for 0.2A, 0.5A and 1A. That why I find 2100's test for the Panny useful.  

Whats real about discharging at 0.2A, thats a all nigh test there, i dont have any lights that draw less then 1 amp, if you bothered to read post number 67 on this thread you will see i have already done the 0.5A test ! I can see 1 amp being useful, but any battery that gives the most mAh over 3 amp discharge will normaly give the most mAh and last longer for lower discharge test and you can work it out with simple math. Now if you wanted other test done why not ask........

I personaly dont find 2100's test of the panny useful as he is using a imax b6 charger with the maxium discharge of 1 amp with no data logging to back up his results, he has said in other post that the charger is out 0.2 volt to me when i question him and i know personaly the imax b6 and clones are not very good in nimh mode and the main charge leads are normaly out from 0.04 to 0.4 volts including the balance ports and 2100 has to use nimh mode to discharge lower then 3 volt. Im not have a dig at 2100 as hes a great bloke and great poster on this form im just stating it as i see it i dont mean no harm.

2100 wrote:

I have to admit, i "only" have a IMAX B6 so i am limited to 1A.  Mainly that is for recharging my Pb because the stock ones take too long....i wasn't too keen on iChargers as they are over 70 bucks and i don't do RC.  It's bad for regular Pb (non fancy AGM or what fancy types) of course to do above 0.3C but heck they are so cheap (15 bucks for a 7.2AH and yes it's a fresh one with ~ that capacity).  From what i see on hobby sites, most entry level models have NiMH and Pb modes...so below 3V discharge is not an issue.  Most flashlights do go below 3V per cell esp for 2 x 18650 lights and they don't dim much, if you don't believe my few tens of flashlights, check out HKJ, he probably has EVERYTHING in the market.  LOL!  Sealed

PS. I know there are some which do specifically Li only...but RC do make use if NiMH as well. If you ask Lambda, NiMH is not inferior to Li-ion.

iChargers are good for lead acid batteries (PB) but only from 2 to 24 volt upto 10 amps or 250 watt for my icharger 106B+ if you run the iCharger from a PB battery you can do regeneration charges witch are very handy.

2100 wrote:

There were a couple of good guys, i think DasFriek, who tests and includes graphs as they can log....wonder where are they.   Some good guys like Agenthex has left too!

Where do you think my data charts come from ? i log using my icharger 106b+ connected to my computer for my battery tests i use logVeiw V2.7.4* with icharger 106B+ with the v3.14 firmware upgrade and then recalibrated the charger.

I use this program for my data log,s and for the data charts i post

http://www.logview.info/vBulletin/content.php?47-screenshots_1

I use the data tables instead of graphs becuse i find it simple and think it would be easy for other people to read and the data tables includes charge time updated every 2 seconds, voltage, watts, engery, mAh, plus induvidual cell voltage for upto 6 cells, internal temp of my charger, battery temperture, the chargers imput voltage from the power supply and so on and i can not get all that infomation on one graph.

I usualy only include the end of the charge cycle then hit the print screan button on the key board while the logVeiw program is running and opean on the screan of my computer, save the image in paint, then crop the image down with microsoft picture it! then up load the image to photobucket then post the image on the thread.

I cut out things like battery and charger tempture and induvidual cell voltage if im only doing one cell at a time to test.

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benckie wrote:

Hikelite wrote:

 

What is real world for eveybody. I've seen Benckie putting a stop every time on 3V. What's real about that?. Many flashlights stop at 2.7V. So do I say it's real to ignore that I can have more runtime donw to 2.75V or 2.5V.

My Shadow TC6's driver is designed to cut at 5V. So yes, some 2.5V cells are be good for me, or others using this flashlight. I many times use it on low and medium so i need longer runtimes.

So from my point of view, I need tests done for 0.2A, 0.5A and 1A. That why I find 2100's test for the Panny useful.  

Whats real about discharging at 0.2A, thats a all nigh test there, i dont have any lights that draw less then 1 amp, if you bothered to read post number 67 on this thread you will see i have already done the 0.5A test ! I can see 1 amp being useful, but any battery that gives the most mAh over 3 amp discharge will normaly give the most mAh and last longer for lower discharge test and you can work it out with simple math. Now if you wanted other test done why not ask........

I personaly dont find 2100's test of the panny useful as he is using a imax b6 charger with the maxium discharge of 1 amp with no data logging to back up his results, he has said in other post that the charger is out 0.2 volt to me when i question him and i know personaly the imax b6 and clones are not very good in nimh mode and the main charge leads are normaly out from 0.04 to 0.4 volts including the balance ports and 2100 has to use nimh mode to discharge lower then 3 volt. Im not have a dig at 2100 as hes a great bloke and post on this form im just stating it as i see it i dont mean no harm.

 

 

Have I said anything about your 0.5A test? Have I said that you haven't done it? No

You don't have any lights that draw less than 1A. OK. Others have, including me.

I have already said that for my needs, 0.2A is useful, and for any person who uses low modes on a regular basis.

Look at HKJ tests and see that at 0.2A the capacity increases. At at 1A and 0.5A they end up with the same capacity. So doing the math is not something accurate in this case.

 

 

Different case:

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So you need test done with 0.2 and 1 amp done. HJK is planing on doing discharges at 0.2A, 0.5A, 1A, 2A, 3A and 5A i could do 0.2 and 1 amp if you like if you dont want to wait ? i can even use the same graphs. I was thinking of doing a 6.2 amp test the maxium panisonic recomend for these cells.

The Math works out pritty close if aprox is good enough like 200 mAh, even the graphs show its with in 150 mAh thats bugger all, so the math is close for no more then 1 amp i know the math does not work well for 1 + amp discharges.

As for battery cut off when dishcarging since most batteries ive come across are 2.75 volt most batteries ive seen people buy and use of this forum are cheapies with the cut off around 2.75 volt, the diffrence between 3 volt and 2.75 volt is basicly seconds in real life usage in a torch on high with a cheap battery like the most commonly used on this site.

Im about to post results for 2.5 volt test.

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For people who do not understand mAh it stands for milliamp hour this means a 3100 mAh battery should be able to supply 3100 milliamps (3.1 amps) for an hour.

Another test of these cells that have been cycled 8 times now last night i fully charged them last night and today i discharged at 3.1 amps from 4.18 volt to 2.5 volt, discharged with an icharger 106B+ in lilo mode for lion batteries

Cell A discharged at 3.1 amps from 4.18 volt to 2.5

Cell B discharged at 3.1 amps from 4.18 volt to 2.5

The cells come off the charger with a resting voltage of 3.24 and 3.23v.

NCR18650A 3100 mAh battery discharged at 3 amp to 3 volt 2485 (averaged out over the two cells)

NCR18650A 3100 mAh battery discharged at 3.1 amp to 2.5 volt 2876 (averaged out over the two cells)

So they gained an extra 391 mAh aprox even with the extra 0.1 amp.

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I like those results mauch better Smile

The best light is the one you have on you when you need it.

Solarforce L2T single mode XML T5 3C 1.75A

Hikelite
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Benckie, would you do a discharge for the NCR18650A at 0.5A down to 2.5V please, now that they bare.

2100
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Hikelite wrote:

Benckie, would you do a discharge for the NCR18650A at 0.5A down to 2.5V please, now that they bare.

Yeah Benckie, you could do a 0.5A.  Then i also do mine, and then i can see how accurate is my IMAX B6. 

benckie
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Sure i can do that they should hit 3100 mAh easy maybe a bit more, would you like a voltage VS mAh graphs as well ? i still would like to include the data tabes i normaly use also, i would really like to do 6.2 amp discharge.

It might be a couple of days off as im doing some discharges on some redilast,s 2600 blacks and playing with some graphs 

2100 wrote:

Yeah Benckie, you could do a 0.5A.  Then i also do mine, and then i can see how accurate is my IMAX B6. 

Thats a good idea.

Try lilo mode, i can use lilo mode to discharge below 3 volt but not to charge to 4.2v, im waiting on a firmware update for the icharger for this

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Hank Wang wrote:

The factory has deceived us, we paid for performance PCB but instead it seems they have used fewer components in the PCBs.

Hank, will you be taking this up with your supplier?

I have three of these on order (along with three protected Sanyo UR16650ZTs), and while I have lower draw lights, so it's not like I can't use these cells at all, I had been hoping to use them with higher ampage lights as well.

I don't blame yourself, as you can only go by what your supplier is telling you - after all, you can't pull apart every battery to check that it has been made to the desired specification - but it would be nice to get this resolved for future batches, if nothing else.

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This must be said: thanks for all your hard work regarding these cells benckie, really appreciated.

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I've just noticed something interesting.

Benckie got 2940mAh down to 3V at 0.5A from the Intl-O protected NCR18650A. But it seems higher amps discharges are blocked by the obvious reasons.  

old4570 got 2700mah from the Callie Kustoms at the same termination voltage and same discharging current, 3V and 0.5A. Also, old4570 got 2919mAh when discharged at 0.5A down to 2.5V

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Hikelite wrote:

I've just noticed something interesting.

Benckie got 2940mAh down to 3V at 0.5A from the Intl-O protected NCR18650A. But it seems higher amps discharges are blocked by the obvious reasons.  

old4570 got 2700mah from the Callie Kustoms at the same termination voltage and same discharging current, 3V and 0.5A. Also, old4570 got 2919mAh when discharged at 0.5A down to 2.5V

 

This might be related to how much they are charged. I did this test once:

Notice how small a change you need in the voltage to get a 5% change in capacity, also notice the drop in voltage when the battery is resting. You need a good voltmeter to be sure about the termination voltage and be strict with the resting time!

My test of Callies 3100 batteries gives 2885 mAh down to 3 volt and 2953 mAh down to 2.8 volt with 0.5 A discharge current.

 

My website with reviews of many chargers and batteries (More than 1000): https://lygte-info.dk/

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