How hot does an S2+ get at 2.75A? Comparing an anodised Convoy S2+ with a fluorescent yellow powdercoated Convoy S2+

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djozz
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How hot does an S2+ get at 2.75A? Comparing an anodised Convoy S2+ with a fluorescent yellow powdercoated Convoy S2+

Not long ago James from 3tronics (his small UK-based flashlight/parts company) launched the idea on BLF of offering fluorescent yellow powdercoated S2+ hosts for sale ( http://budgetlightforum.com/node/51943 ). He did not ask much money for it, it was just something new that he wanted to try out. It sounded like a neat idea but also the question was asked to what  extent the coating would inhibit the heatshedding capabilities of the flashlight. That concern was fair enough, but then the discussion turned really nasty, almost blaming him that he was trying to sell potential pipe bombs to innocent customers. Of course that discussion made him decide in the end not to go through with the idea, which I and some others found rather disappointing.

 

Then James wrote me a PM asking me to just test it out instead of all the talk about it. That being exactly my BLF-philosophy I had no choice but agreeing and so he made me a yellow powder coated light for testing and sent it to me. Before I start this post, I'm the first to admit that no test is perfect and no test is complete, but here's how I tested it.

 

 

I reckoned that the most logical way to test this host is to build it up for the maxiumum output that an innocent customer that still can handle a solder iron would probably build it: with an XP-L led, a 8x7135 lineair driver from the same store and a high drain 18650 battery. Folks who are able to source and use a FET-driver for an S2+ I see as not innocent but as flashlight enthousiasts and regard them smart enough to know that the power from a FET-driver is certainly too much for the S2+ to leave it unattended at the highest mode.

For comparison I used an anodised Convoy S2+ that I had in house, it appeared a dark grey one with short tube, and because I did not have a matching grey 18650 tube I used a black one that I had around.

 

Here's the parts, Convoy 8x7135 drivers, cool white XP-L leds from Fasttech, 16mm Noctigon boards (the XP-G2's were replaced by the XP-L's  later):

Because I wanted to test the heat build-up in the lights and not possible led failure, I maximised the heat path from the leds to the shell by soldering the ledboards to the brass pills. Also to keep the light as long as possible in regulation at the desired test current, I bypassed the tail springs. I did not bypass the driver spring as that could influence the route that the heat goes in this light, and I do not expect that 'innocent customer' to do a spring bypass anyway.

As a side note: I noticed that the Convoy driver is not a direct fit for their own Convoy S2+ driver retaining rings, I had to ream them quite a bit to make the 7135 chips fit, I even had to move one chip that was closer to the edge than the rest a bit to the middle.

So here's the result, I measured exactly 2.75 regulated amps for both lights, the yellow one puts out 900 lumen @ 30 seconds, the black/grey one 890 lumen, close enough.

I already had become quite fond of that yellow flashlight but unfortunately in the name of science I had to ruin it right away. ("what happened to my Honda?" "I'm sorry baby, I had to crash that Honda").

The idea was to use two thermocouples to measure temperature, one going inside the pill (hence the 2mm wide and 4mm deep holes in the head, going inside and almost through the side of the pill, just under the shelf for the ledboard, and one thermocouple measuring the temperature of the plus-plate of the battery.

 

The thermocouples that I used were cheap ones that came with a batch of 40 DMM's that I bought for work a couple of years ago (secondary school), they show quite some variation in readings, but I selected two thermocouple-DMM combinations that were close to correct (both in offset and slope) using a calibrated water bath at several temperatures. I trust them within a 2 or 3 degrees, which is close enough for this test to make valid points.

 

So here's how the test set-up looked like. I added some Arctic silver on the thermocouple going in the head to improve conductance, but I did not want to do that for the battery one. During the test it was pressed against the plus-plate though. The left temperature is the top of the battery, the right temperature is inside the pill.

I tested the heat build-up for both the black/grey and the yellow powder coated S2+ during 36 minutes, both tests were done at high 2.75A setting with the same  freshly charged Samsung 30Q battery, that was recharged between the tests. The tests were done at room temperature without airflow, the flashlights resting on a piece of wood. The tests were filmed and the numbers later written down. After 36 minutes the tests were stopped, the flashlight cooled down a bit, checked that the thermocouples had stayed in the correct position, and the current was measured. The current was 2.5A then, so only just out of regulation. I first tested the grey flashlight, then the yellow one, and after that to check repeatability of the method, I tested the grey one once more which gave the exact same numbers as the first grey test.

Here's a fragment of the yellow powdercoated S2+ temperature test (as a distraction, you can hear me talking to my son in the background wink ):

I noticed that for each test the starting temperature for the head was about 2 degrees higher than for the pill. I interpreted that as a reading difference between the two thermocouples so for the graphs I substracted 2 degrees from all pill temperatures, not very scientific but I did it anyway and it does not affect the conclusions in any way.

 

So here are the findings in a graph. You will notice a few missing numbers, that is because my phone keeps stopping filming all the time, so I ended up with multiple fragments with bits missing frown. Luckily there were enough numbers for a decent graph smile

 

 

 

There's a few conclusions from this test:

1) an S2+ running unattended at 2.75A gets burning hot, way too hot to touch, but the temperature eventually levels out at still safe temperatures, both inside the pill and at the battery. Nowhere near unsoldering temperatures, nowhere near thermal runaway temperatures for the battery (I think I recall that a non-high-drain li-ion battery becomes thermally unstable above 150 degrees Celsius, and higher temperatures for high-drain cells)

2) as expected, the battery temperature lags behind compared to pill temperature, but even though I stopped the test at 36 minutes (girlfriend came home), I expect that the battery never gets as hot as the pill. (after 36 minutes the light was already out of regulation, so the temperature I expect even to decrease soon)

3) the heatshedding of the powder coated S2+ is hardly worse than the anodised S2+, in this test they differ only 3 degrees in end temperature.

4) I hope this test ends the discussion about selling powder coated flashlights as an irresponsable act.

 

 

What's next?

I may do this test later with a FET-driver in the S2+, but that is out of mere curiosity, I think the point is sufficiently made that it does not make a huge difference if your flashlight is powder coated or anodised.

 

thanks for reading! smile

Edited by: djozz on 02/16/2017 - 03:24
cmflippen
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That’s good to hear! Thanks for testing.

I’ve been getting impatient waiting for Simon’s Desert Tan S2+. Been seriously considering powder coating one instead.

EasyB
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Nice measurements, thanks.

Wow, that looks like a bright green.

Jerommel
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Well, whaddayaknow?
Unexpected results.

2Q19

MRsDNF
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Again terrific work djozz. This thread should be changed to Mythbuster. I dont see enough difference that in the real would would affect anything. The next interesting test would be a deanodized light compared with the normal black anodized light. Smile
Just in my own run time testing on un cooled lights an XPE2 running at 800 mA will make the whole light get to hot to touch after a period of time.
There remains one question unanswered which I dont want answered. Why did the run time tests stop when the girl friend arrived home? Facepalm

 

djozz quotes, "it came with chinese lettering that is chinese to me".

                      "My man mousehole needs one too"

old4570 said "I'm not an expert , so don't suffer from any such technical restrictions".

Old-Lumens. Highly admired and cherished member of Budget Light Forum. 11.5.2011 - 20.12.16. RIP.

 

mapache
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Nicely done!

Since dark colours are supposed to shed heat better than light colours, I wonder how the tests would look if the powder coating was the same colour as the anodized light.

malkoffdevices
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Thanks.
Pipe bomb alert status dismissed

London !

CRX
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Cool, thanks Thumbs Up

Phlogiston
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A well-executed test, and a very useful one to boot. Thanks for doing all that work, djozz, and thanks to James at 3Tronics for providing the powder-coated sample Thumbs Up

Personally, I’m unlikely to buy a powder-coated light, but it was fascinating to see how these unusual materials perform. In addition to that, the anodised light results are directly relevant to anyone who owns an S2+. They even offer us an insight into what any similar 18650 tube light design should be able to withstand.

I have three stock S2+ lights and several S2+ hosts floating around, so it’s very nice to know that even 8×7135 configurations can withstand continuous operation at full power. It’s a bad idea to actually do it, given the likelihood of personal injury, but it means that the Convoy S2+ has a substantial operating margin at lower levels, which should imply excellent reliability in normal use. I find that very impressive.

Most importantly, I’m delighted to see James at 3Tronics vindicated on the safety front. The custom Convoy X3 he built for me has been my most-used outdoor light for a full year now, so I can assure you that he does excellent work.

Rufusbduck
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Great test once again Jos! Any chance you’d be interested in repeating it with successively fewer chips to see where equilibrium settles and time to get there. It would be of use in choosing turbo time out settings.

Three Tanna leaves to give him life, nine to give him movement. But what if he eats the whole bag?

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Lexel
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a stock light with aluminum star will fail miserably at those body temperatures

I think the DTP star keeps the LED within safe die temperatures, maybe not getting close to 50000h lifetime, but we can live with a couple thousand hours

Cythras
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Thanks for the test. I found what was going on in the other thread to be quite ridiculous.

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Rufusbduck wrote:
Great test once again Jos! Any chance you’d be interested in repeating it with successively fewer chips to see where equilibrium settles and time to get there. It would be of use in choosing turbo time out settings.

Oh I second this. It would be great to know for say 6×7135 and 4×7135. The S2+ with all its variations has become like the standard for 18650 tube lights. A reference for thermal behaviour would be extremely useful. I don’t want to give somebody a light that gets to >80°.

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Great test, djozz!

Thanks for this very informative post and for sacrificing two nice lights in the name of science. Also, thanks to James for providing that light. Thumbs Up

Mr.Scott
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Thank you djozz for all the time and effort you put into this testing. Great job! And thank you to James for providing the sample.Really like the yellow.

3Tronics
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Thanks to djozz for running this test! Confirmed I picked the right man for the job, A lot of time and effort went into this!
Thanks Jos!

Custom builds | Modifications | Powder Coating 
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erik
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thank you for the test

djozz
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Thanks for the comments all of you. Since I have these ruined lights now, I may as well do a few more tests with them when time allows that.

MRsDNF wrote:

There remains one question unanswered which I dont want answered. Why did the run time tests stop when the girl friend arrived home? Facepalm

Well, as much as she understands that a man needs a hobby, ok, let’s just say that my six year old son a least found the tests very enjoyable to watch. Wink
The Miller
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Very nice!
And I bet you will find good uses in future testing for those tortured lights Wink

crz6662
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I’d be curious how well the finish would hold up ? I’d buy one. Thanks for the comparison.

3Tronics
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crz6662 wrote:
I’d be curious how well the finish would hold up ? I’d buy one. Thanks for the comparison.

Video of paint vs anodising vs powdercoating

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Henk4U2
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Thanks djozz.

You are a flashaholic if you are forced to come out of the closet, to make room for more flashlights.

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Thanks for that….3Tronic

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interesting test. About what I would have expected given the results for automotive parts with about the same results (aka, powder coating doesn’t have a large effect on temperature transfer. Now ceramic coating on the other hand is a whole other ballgame).

I have to say, that yallow light is really not bad, I could see several uses for it.

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Captured on film for the first time ever, the dreaded Li-ion Tape Worm.  This illusive creature has been the bane of electronics consumers the world over. 

On a serious note, Thank you djozz for yet another hobby changing, well designed test and report. 

 

 

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Thanks for the test.
Djozz busting myths, I like that.
Next we need, disproved theory that solder alloy thermal conductivity rating as being critical for better LED cooling in DTP MCPCBs

Hikelite
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Lexel wrote:
a stock light with aluminum star will fail miserably at those body temperatures

I think the DTP star keeps the LED within safe die temperatures, maybe not getting close to 50000h lifetime, but we can live with a couple thousand hours

Current plays a huge role in lifetime, see CREE’s results.
Those L70 ratings are rather pointless at low currents.
Reaching L90 at higher current is way faster even if case temp is way lower.
Just compare the last 2, huge difference for L90, despite the way much lower case temp.

keltex78
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Glad to see this thread vindicating James and his attempt to fill a niche market with custom finish lights…

I was watching the other thread closely as I thought the powder-coated light looked really good. I was disappointed to see that thread get turned into such a flame war.

I’m also sad to see that nice fluorescent yellow light hacked up, but at least we know it was…


Keepin’ the “B” in BLF

Don wrote:
It sounds like the XM LEDs won’t really be suitable for flashlight use. Pity…

3Tronics
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The code is active for the Powder coated lights!

Fluorescent Yellow Hosts:

The Fluorescent Yellow C8 price after code is £25.85 + Shipping
The Fluorescent Yellow S2+ price after code is £24.75 + Shipping

A bit higher than original mainly due to the current exchange rates! etc.

I currently have NO spare hosts in stock (but there are more on the way)

Depending on how many orders there are I will order more hosts tomorrow. So please see this as a pre-order!

e.g If i get 10 orders tonight I will order 15 more hosts tomorrow

They will be done ASAP after I get the hosts

This way it saves me from doing an interest list and waiting for it to fill up, then ordering the hosts, then coating them.
I will do it as and when people order. It should cut down the wait time

I’m not going to set an end date for the coupon, but it will end so if you want one get it before the price goes back up!

The Discount Code Is: FLOYO

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hank
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Bravo Djozz! Many thanks.

hank
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PS, cross-referencing a search, the specific material used for the powder coat affects the emissivity (how well it throws away infrared to the universe around)
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22powder+coat%22+emissivity

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